Complete T5 swap thread - one way to skin the cat

[CRGRS 66]

Originally Posted by jocko

Assume you're referring to shortening the trans input shaft. I looked at that, but what you will see is that the tip if the input shaft is turned down section that inserts into the pilot bushing. If you simply chop 1/2" off the end, you are not really left with sufficient engagement into the pilot bushing. Some folks HAVE done this, but I would not. You also have to consider the engagement of the i/p shaft splines with the clutch. I built a cardboard mock-up in 2D to examine all the clearances and what was gonna hit what and when - main reason to do this is that the Astro Van 11" clutch and pressure plate have a slightly different stacking height than the stock 3-speed, so I was concerned about proper amount to cut off the release bearing collar, clearance between the fat stack of new clutch/pressure plate and the thickness of the release bearing (which, if purchased in the Astro Van clutch kit, all works out because it is thinner than the stock 3-speed's release bearing, this is why it all works out).

Thanks Jocko, when I get working on this in the fall/winter I think I will order the spacer from hamilton (seems a $110 well spent), outside of that I will be doing this conversion your way.

[jocko]

Originally Posted by RAYDAY

why not use the 4.3 s10 bell housing and hydrolic throw out and just bolt it to the motor?

Originally Posted by CRGRS 66

That is a very good question. I can get a spacer from Hamilton, or shorten the output, but I think the hydraulic throw out would add to my head scratching... I think.

Jocko... ?

I'll assume the bell housing is a direct bolt-on (I just don't know for certain), but it comes down to whether or not you want to use your entire stock set-up that currently works - or - work the nit noids of marrying up a manual clutch pedal to a hydraulic release bearing master cylinder (and purchase that master cylinder), route the hoses, and hope it all bleeds easily... Me, I have enough trouble bleeding my brakes, so that's the last thing I wanted to add. One benefit though of a hyd release bearing setup is you free up a little more room for headers on the driver's side.

Also, note that you cannot do the whole bell housing thing from a Camaro, a Camaro T5 has a "twist" built in that cants the transmission so the stick lines up correctly in the Camaro console. That is why if you buy a Camaro T5 stick from Hurst or the aftermarket, it's got a cant built into the stick that results in an upright stick (ask me how I know...). So, I would not begin to attempt with a Camaro bell housing. A Camaro trans on a stock truck bell housing is a great thing (no spacer is required because a Camaro has the correct length input shaft) but you have to make sure you put an S10 tailshaft onto the Camaro's main case if you want the stick to clear a bench seat.

So, to answer your quesiton, yes, I believe you can do what you're suggesting, and it might be a good idea if you REALLY want a hyd release bearing (keep in mind - this would be a hyd release bearing setup, NOT a hyd slave cylinder setup that came on 60-62 Apaches). However, if you are choosing to go with an S10 bell housing because you think it might be easier - think again, setting up the hyd release bearing, installing the MC, etc is more work and more difficult than using the stock truck bell.

My 2 cents only, many ways to skin the cat. Hope that helps!

[jocko]

Originally Posted by CRGRS 66

Thanks Jocko, when I get working on this in the fall/winter I think I will order the spacer from hamilton (seems a $110 well spent), outside of that I will be doing this conversion your way.

One tip - make sure you order WAAAAY in advance. I ordered from those guys and waited all summer, then gave up and made my own. If they have them in stock, great, grab one NOW. Good guys at Hamilton, but it's a side-business, not their full time jobs. Just some cool gearheads that make some nice parts in their spare time. I had a bad experience, but it was just bad timing, doesn't mean you'll get the runaround from them, it may work out fine.

[CRGRS 66]

Originally Posted by jocko

One tip - make sure you order WAAAAY in advance. I ordered from those guys and waited all summer, then gave up and made my own. If they have them in stock, great, grab one NOW. Good guys at Hamilton, but it's a side-business, not their full time jobs. Just some cool gearheads that make some nice parts in their spare time. I had a bad experience, but it was just bad timing, doesn't mean you'll get the runaround from them, it may work out fine.

Thanks Jocko, will do, appreciate it!

[jocko]

Hey Craigerrr, here's one more source for the spacer. This guy is a GREAT guy and takes a lot of pride in his stuff. I would confirm that it will work with a V8 bell before ordering because most of his stuff is geard fro I6 - so I'm not positive it will fit, but he could answer for sure. http://vintagemetalworks.blogspot.co...ter-plate.html

[CRGRS 66]

Originally Posted by jocko

Hey Craigerrr, here's one more source for the spacer. This guy is a GREAT guy and takes a lot of pride in his stuff. I would confirm that it will work with a V8 bell before ordering because most of his stuff is geard fro I6 - so I'm not positive it will fit, but he could answer for sure. http://vintagemetalworks.blogspot.co...ter-plate.html

Thanks! You are a good man Charlie Brown!

[jocko]

btw, did you notice the vintage metal works guy makes a new one for the bigger hole belll hsg dia? http://vintagemetalworks.blogspot.co...bore-bell.html So he DOES make em for v8's now - BUT make sure you measure your bell housing index ring diameter - 60-66's with V8s "should" have the 4.686" dia index ring (i.e. hole) and 67-68 had the 5.125" index opening. Anyway, just shows he can make just about anything - so he can probably easily make one to fit your situation. You should have the 4.686" bell housing opening if it's the stock 60-66 bell, but never hurts to measure before you order/call to see if he can make one. You dan't have to be real precise in your measurements, there are only 2 sizes - if it's larger than 5", then you can order the part above. If it's less than 5", you have the 4.68." bell index ring, and I'd give him a call to see if he can make one up. Just an option if Hamilton is not available.

[socaljess]

great thread defenetly going to give this a try on my 66 whats the best year s10 trans to look for ? also i found this hamiltonintakes.com/ http://hamiltonintakes.com/products/...-swap-adapter#

[CRGRS 66]

Originally Posted by socaljess

great thread defenetly going to give this a try on my 66 whats the best year s10 trans to look for ? also i found this hamiltonintakes.com/ http://hamiltonintakes.com/products/...-swap-adapter#

I think you will find the answer to your question (in great detail) on page one of this thread.

[jocko]

socaljess, sorry late reply - crgrs is right, much info on page 1, but to answer your question - "it depends"... If you get a 93, you can have the added bonus of a WC trans' strength compared to non-WC. But, you will have to swap in a non-electronic speedo assembly. Not real sure how all that magic works because that's how my trans came from the swap meet (thank goodness...). If you're not gonna burn rubber at every light, an earlier S10 trans - mid-80's would fit the bill and also come with the mech speedo. Again, the IDEAL, if you happen to stumble across it, it a Camaro WC T5 with an S10 tailshaft housing - no spacer required and a little extra strength. But, hard to find, usually from someone else's project that went south... Hope that helps!

Remember to check how far off your speedo is when all done (with a GPS or pacer car, etc). Shouldn't technically change how far off yoru speedo was BEFORE the swap (i.e. you're reading from the final drive of the trans), but just good to know afterward.

[66herbie]

Awesome post! I'm planning on doing this very soon and this will be a great help! 66 250 C10
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[jocko]

thanks herbie. since you have a 6, I'd call this guy: http://vintagemetalworks.blogspot.co...ter-plate.html

He made this T5 adapter specifically for 6 cylinders, but I'd call and make sure it'll fit a 250. It should, I think. Main question is size of the index ring on your bell housing (2 types, one is >5" and one is <5" in dia.) I THINK he makes both diameters, but he's a great guy, have spoken to him on the phone - friendly, responsive, good truck guy.

[socaljess]

thanks jocko on the info and great thread

[amccomb]

I have an original saginaw 4spd that needs a re-build, I think I might just go ahead and go with a 5spd instead. Great info guys!!

[socaljess]

did you use any thing at the rear of the trans such as a trans mount and or x member ??

[socaljess]

got my 5 speed done went with the cross breed camaro/s10 combo

[jocko]

If you retain the stock bellhousing (and it's associated dog-ear bell housing mounts), then you should not use a trans tail-housing crossmember. Only 2 mount locations should be used along the engine/trans driveline combo - not 3. (I'm counting both bell mounts as "1" and the engine mounts as "1").

This question comes up every once in a while and it's a good question - but if you note that newer vehicles that have rear trans crossmembers don't have bell housing mounts, it starts to make sense. Overall reason has to do with potential flexing, or resisting of flexing as a unit, etc of the engine/trans combo - so only 2 mount locations needed or deisred. Either Engine+bell, or Engine+trans rear crossmember.

[socaljess]

thanks jocko i wasnt shure what to do on the tail ...got my trans all together this weekend out old 3spd and going in then all i need is to get the drive shaft shortend heres a pic of what i picked up to put on the camaro case [IMG][/IMG]

[jocko]

so you have a camaro main case and S10 tailshaft? Best of both worlds, no adapter needed. Nice!

[C-10cutty]

Originally Posted by jocko

socaljess, sorry late reply - crgrs is right, much info on page 1, but to answer your question - "it depends"... If you get a 93, you can have the added bonus of a WC trans' strength compared to non-WC. But, you will have to swap in a non-electronic speedo assembly. Not real sure how all that magic works because that's how my trans came from the swap meet (thank goodness...). If you're not gonna burn rubber at every light, an earlier S10 trans - mid-80's would fit the bill and also come with the mech speedo. Again, the IDEAL, if you happen to stumble across it, it a Camaro WC T5 with an S10 tailshaft housing - no spacer required and a little extra strength. But, hard to find, usually from someone else's project that went south... Hope that helps!

Remember to check how far off your speedo is when all done (with a GPS or pacer car, etc). Shouldn't technically change how far off yoru speedo was BEFORE the swap (i.e. you're reading from the final drive of the trans), but just good to know afterward.

This is what I'd like to do this winter if I get the parts put together. What year range of Camaro T5 would be best?

Would the Camaro T5 have a better first gear ratio?

thanks

[glos55]

WOW Nice job jocko I'm impressed!!

[jocko]

thanks glos55, much appreciated. it's been a labor of love. And hate, occasionally

C-10 cutty - here's some links that might help answer some of your quesitons - the Camaro 1st gear ratios are, generally speaking, lower (numerically) on v8 cars compared to v6 and or an S10 4 or 6 (i.e. generally speaking, an engine that came from the factory with less torque will have a deeper (higher numerical) 1st gear to help multiply the torque better for a tiny engine). But this first link shows what ratios came in what.
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Bo...T5-ID-Tags.htm One more note - don't fall into the trap of thinking that what I said above means to buy a small engine's trans so that you can have massive torque multiplication and do a lot of burnouts. 1) you'll blow the trans and 2) even if you don't, you'll only be halfway across an intersection before it's time to shift into 2nd gear. To me, the Camaro v8 T5 main case is an ideal arrangement and it makes 1st gear a lot more useful and similar to today's cars, especially if you already have a 3.73 rear end. If you have a 3.08 rear, then a 4.0+ 1st gear ration in the trans might not be too bad. BUt the 4.0+ 1st gear ratio (like what came in a 4 cyl S10) and a 3.73 (or higher numerically) rear end can become a bothersome combo - 1st gear rapidly becomes useless, and you'll want to start off in 2nd gear.

This thread is great info for identifying a "found" T5 as a WC or non-WC visually - especially the first 2 pics are the best ID tip I've seen.
http://www.flatheadv8.org/ernie/ernie-t5.htm

One very important note (quote) from the above link: "It’s worth noting again that the ’93-95 F-body V6 cars got a Ford case with a GM input shaft" - in other words, AVOID them because the case bolt pattern is ford.. no workie for our swaps. Note that is F-body (Camaro/Firebody) only - a 93 S10 still has the correct GM bell bolt pattern. That is what mine is.

As to what year Camaro/F-body main case to look for - I'd focus on 92 and earlier to avoid the Ford bolt pattern snafu. Among those, I'm not sure which is more or less good - but essentially just look at the first link, determine if you want a v8 or I4/V6 gear ratio set, and use the 2nd link to ID a trans as a WC or non-WC and those are the two major considerations in my mind.

I'm not certain that the non-v8 Camaro T5s were WC trans's - but you can ask the seller then visually confirm, etc.

Hope that helps!

[Bazooka]

Jocko thanks for all the time and effort you put into this thread I really appreciate it.

I scored my s10 tailshaft and top plate on ebay.

[jocko]

Good deal! Finding that separately makes your main case search a simple deal - find a Camaro T5 and you're set!

[socaljess]

Nice score bazooka i was eyeballin that same set up on ebay for my truck lol but to swap it out was perty easy just besure to pull out tour input shaft and check the main shat and pocket bearings mine started to have some flaking the parts are cheap found a good place to get a a synco and the bearing at anahiem gear cost me 22.00 bucks and they ship all over
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