Project Family Chummins

[Ackattack]

Phase 2 has officially began: I rolled the gm frame out of the garage and pulled the dodge in and started the tear down. OK, so maybe I only removed the batteries, but it starts there

I'm gonna see if I can get my neighbor over to help me move the short bed out of the way of my trailer as well as help pull the hood off the dodge, but that probably won't happen for a few days.

[Ackattack]

I've made some pretty quick progress on the teardown of the dodge.

Got the fenders, front bumpers, core support out of the way first.





Then I got the doors off, the seat out, and the shifters out.

I must say I really do not like Dodge's wiring in comparison to GMs. For the doors, I had to pull all of the wiring out of the door since apparently there isn't a connector somewhere in the door or kickpanel to disconnect it all. It also appears that the firewall is the same way, so I'm probably going to have to cut/disconnect wires before I pull the cab.

I'm getting close to pulling the cab. I still need to disconnect the brakes, clutch, throttle cable and then pull the mounting bolts. Oh, still have to get the hood off.

One of my big problems is I'm out of space. I have the crew cab in the garage as well as the dually bed. The short bed is in front of my trailer (which I want to put the crewcab frame on). I'm thinking I'm going to have to have some help to move the beds and dodge cab around, behind my garage. I wish I could sell some of this stuff faster, but craigslist is slow (oh yeah, I also have 2 engines, 2 trannies, and some other parts for sale taking up garage space).

[LEEVON]

I would be completely overwhelmed at this point, you're a brave soul!

[Meatman]

Ive discovered that pretty much knock of 20-30% right off the top on what you think you can get on Craigslist anymore. Bunch of low ballers on there now a days. Anything I put on there I pretty much have to bump to top after a couple weeks and lower the price alot before Ill get any interest.

Looks like project is coming along good!

[Ackattack]

got some work done over the weekend....got the body off the cab.

The bed wasn't a problem, but man the cab was a pain. I had to do it outside for height reasons, and it had been raining so the engine hoist was sinking into the mud. It involved using a come along to pull the engine hoist out from under the frame. Then I had to roll the frame back into the garage (slight up hill). I took me and 2 buddies 2 hrs to remove the cab and get the frame back into the garage and my whole body is sore from pushing this beast back into the garage, but its there.





I started measuring the dodge frame but haven't gotten a chance to develop my plan.

I'm also working on coming up with a list of what work I want to do since access to things is MUCH easier at this point.

[jbclassix]

Used the Tonka to haul the cab too, huh!

[Dieselwrencher]

Yep, those frames are just as ugly with a cab off as they are with a cab on them. I'd recommend boxing the frame while you have it apart too.

[ryanroo]

a few months ago i had a similar sight in my driveway. we had a fight with the cab and i had a skid steer to help!

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

Yep, those frames are just as ugly with a cab off as they are with a cab on them. I'd recommend boxing the frame while you have it apart too.

i thought you said us frame boxers where crazy?

[Ackattack]

Going to put this truck project on temporary hold for a week or two. I'm in grad school (working on MBA) so I have a paper to write

In the mean time, I'm working on ordering some parts and selling some others. I also put my 69 up for sale Need to sell it for money for this project and its just the least practical vehicle I have to haul the family around with (other than my 68 which I won't sell)

[Dieselwrencher]

Originally Posted by ryanroo

a few months ago i had a similar sight in my driveway. we had a fight with the cab and i had a skid steer to help!



i thought you said us frame boxers where crazy?

The old 67-72 chevy frames don't crack and break in half like the dodge frames do. (And they do it without being wheeled or beat hard.)

[Ackattack]

Originally Posted by Ackattack

Going to put this truck project on temporary hold for a week or two. I'm in grad school (working on MBA) so I have a paper to write

I was driving around with my son (3 years old) who really likes Transformers and I was telling him about my truck, and it came to me. I'm going to change the name to Ironhide....the black GMC Topkick in the movies: now back to my paper

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

The old 67-72 chevy frames don't crack and break in half like the dodge frames do. (And they do it without being wheeled or beat hard.)

Where do the frames crack (generally speaking). One thing I'm considering is taking the entire GM frame center (under the cab) and welding it to the outside of the Dodge frame. I would think the dodge frames would crack around the leaf spring mounts, engine mounts, front spring cup mounts, and control arm if anywhere. Sound about right?

[MrBeast]

Honestly your best bet is going to be to use the Chevy frame, Building a 4 link on the front of it to run the dodge 4x4 axle won't be all that hard.

You can shorten that frame to a short bed, that is going to be a much better route than trying to make that dodge frame work. I have long maintained that the Cummins engine is by far the best engine ever built put in the worst truck possible through a strange marriage.

I am ok with this though because there are a lot of worn out dying dodge trucks with perfectly good Cummins engines out there for the rest of us to stick in our Chevy's to replace the Turd of a diesel GM forced us to endure for so long.

[ryanroo]

Originally Posted by MrBeast

Honestly your best bet is going to be to use the Chevy frame, Building a 4 link on the front of it to run the dodge 4x4 axle won't be all that hard.

You can shorten that frame to a short bed, that is going to be a much better route than trying to make that dodge frame work. I have long maintained that the Cummins engine is by far the best engine ever built put in the worst truck possible through a strange marriage.

I am ok with this though because there are a lot of worn out dying dodge trucks with perfectly good Cummins engines out there for the rest of us to stick in our Chevy's to replace the Turd of a diesel GM forced us to endure for so long.

X2

if you start scabbing parts of the GM onto the dodge frame in the end it will look pretty bad i think. my goal in building a vehicle is to have people look under it and say "wow, where did you have all this work done?" in an impressed manner. body swaps almost always never look like they are right, even if the fab work is superb it still looks funny. it will be really easy to mount the dodge stuff into the GM frame and still make it look like it belongs. all you have really done is require new engine mounts and transmission mounts and they are not that difficult to do.

ryan

[Ackattack]

Originally Posted by ryanroo

X2

if you start scabbing parts of the GM onto the dodge frame in the end it will look pretty bad i think. my goal in building a vehicle is to have people look under it and say "wow, where did you have all this work done?" in an impressed manner. body swaps almost always never look like they are right, even if the fab work is superb it still looks funny. it will be really easy to mount the dodge stuff into the GM frame and still make it look like it belongs. all you have really done is require new engine mounts and transmission mounts and they are not that difficult to do.

ryan

and 4wd swap

[MrBeast]

You have a few options there. You can go leaf spring really really really easy.

http://offroaddesign.com/catalog/88-...Conversion.htm

Or you can setup a 4 link like the dodge has just as easy.

http://offroaddesign.com/catalog/Fro...Conversion.htm

Going this route will be far less work than trying to make the dodge frame work. And the end result will be much cleaner.

Your most economical route will be to go leaf springs and to find a Dana 60 for a leaf spring truck. You will be able to sell the one you have for 700-800 bucks, there are plenty of jeep guys looking for that axle to cut down and stuff in their jeeps.

You should be able to get the leaf spring Dana 60 for similar money.

with this the only custom fab you are going to have is cutting the coil spring buckets off of your frame and plating the frame back in. This is going to be much less work than trying to make that dodge frame fit a Chevy cab.

I want to add that I have had a good deal of experience with this sort of thing, I have been building trucks the last 15 years. For instance look at my 72 K30, it started life as a C30



I built all the pieces myself to convert it to a 4x4.



This setup worked out really slick. (It has a 12 valve between the fenders here)



As well I have turned this:



Into this.



Building a very capable leaf spring suspension is not hard at all, your truck built up with a good sway bar front and rear should be plenty stable for on road cruising, if you put the disconnects on it you will be able to get out and flex it.

[ryanroo]

even using the dodge front axle would work. you could pretty easily replicate the frame side mounting of the four link and the panhard. prefabbed coil buckets for the frame are available and if you are good with a plasma or cutoff you could probably snatch the ones off the dodge frame and use those. or if the dimensions worked you could use the GM frame buckets. but like Mr beast said the option of leaves is there and quite easy. either buying an off the self kit or makiing it yourself. i built the front leaf suspension for my M715 in maybe an afternoon.

ryan

[Ackattack]

First, the paper is done (or at least good enough for now....got 2 weeks to polish it up a little) so now back to your regularly scheduled project

I have been considering your alls input and did some research and then did a BUNCH of measurements and then drew up some stuff in CAD to see how everything would fit up combining the dodge and chevy frames. Well long story short, it doesn't fit up very well. I made up a list to compare the two options and then ranked each aspect. Basically it was a tie initially. Then when I took out the gooseneck hitch (since I don't have a gooseneck trailer right now) using just the chevy frame won out. I have a B&W turnover hitch for the dodge that requires only a small hole in the bed and a drawtite plate hitch that requires a big hole in the bed for the chevy. Well I don't want a big hole....so for now I just won't worry about the gooseneck hitch. Also, the dodge has airbags on it, and the chevy doesn't. I'm thinking I can swap that over pretty easy.

Here is the drawing of how the frames compare.

I think the big thing that put the chevy frame ahead of the dodge is the fact I'd most likely have to move the engine back in the dodge frame anyways.

[Ackattack]

So with that decision made, I went ahead and pulled the engine



and then set it on jackstands. Most engines I just set on the oil pan, but was kind of afraid that this engine may crush the oil pan.



So now I have to modify the chevy frame to fit the engine. I'll see what my options are for bolt in kits, but may just make my own. I'll have to do quite a bit of measuring to come up with the mounts/crossmember if I do make them, and then will most likely model everything. I think doing by doing this, I'll come up with a better product than just doing it on the fly.

For the suspension I do not want leaf springs, so I'm hoping I can use the stock dodge control arms. I'm not sure what to do with the coil springs. I'd like to use the dodge springs cause I know they will support the weight of the engine. But, the spring buckets are space way outside of the chevy frame.

For the steering, the dodge stuff sucks from the factory, so I'll be converting to a crossover type steering. I'll probably just make my own. Really its just two links and a few holes. I'm not 100% sure what I will end up doing with the power steering box/pitman arm. Not real sure if it will be all compatible with my needs, so I'll have to do some more research on what others have done for SASs.

I'm also going to be running the hydroboost off of the chevy. The dodge used a vacuum booster (engine has a vacuum pump). However, I may try to use the dodge ABS. As of right now I'm going to keep the dodge ECM. The main function that I need it for is to "control" my alternator which is I bought not long ago.

So, overall, there is going to be A LOT of fabrication work and my plasma cutter and welder are going to get a work out

[ryanroo]

Oh, i am glad you decided to keep the chevy frame! and you can externally regulate that new alternator if you want to. the only other thing that is controlled by the Dodge ECM is the grid heater cycle. i am going to run mine with a momentary toggle so i can control the cycle time. i prefer that for cold mornings anyhow. i dont know if the dodge AS will work in the chevy. i think the abs speed sensor on the dodge is in the rear axle and GM used the sensor in the t-case. the PPM readings will be way off.

[Ackattack]

Originally Posted by ryanroo

Oh, i am glad you decided to keep the chevy frame! and you can externally regulate that new alternator if you want to. the only other thing that is controlled by the Dodge ECM is the grid heater cycle. i am going to run mine with a momentary toggle so i can control the cycle time. i prefer that for cold mornings anyhow. i dont know if the dodge AS will work in the chevy. i think the abs speed sensor on the dodge is in the rear axle and GM used the sensor in the t-case. the PPM readings will be way off.

I'll have to check into changing the alt to ext. regulated.

IIRC the abs on the 94s is also from the TC, I'm still kinda debating on using the ABS anyways.

[Dieselwrencher]

Ok lots of good stuff going on here. The dodge alt is easily ran with an external regulator. The dodge pcm also has the water in fuel light in it if you're worried about that. I don't usually worry about it since I change fuel filters religiously. Your speed sensor in your transfer case more than likely won't work, but maybe you can put a gm one in the same hole? I'd use the dodge D60 you have, just ditch the 2 piece RH axle. Or keep it and get rid of the vacuum actuator and get a posi-lok kit, or build one. The dodge steering may suck stock, but money cures that. If you purchase a borgeson steering box and steering shaft, adjustable heavy duty track bar, and a steering box brace, they are night and day difference. Those borgeson pieces are expensive, but do the job and last. If I'm thinking correctly, the chevy steering box moves in the same manner as the dodge, so you might be able to shorten or lengthen the dodge drag link and hook it to the chevy steering box.

[MrBeast]

Glad to see you are going with the Chevy frame, I think in the end you will be glad you did.

Also, building a new mount to put that B&W into the chevy frame is not all that hard, all you need is some angle iron, if you look at the design of the B&W hitch, they use the same center for everything, then just have a bracket kit that is appropriate for the frame it is going on. You may even be able to buy just the parts you need from B&W if you don't feel like fabbing.

[Ackattack]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

Ok lots of good stuff going on here. The dodge alt is easily ran with an external regulator. The dodge pcm also has the water in fuel light in it if you're worried about that. I don't usually worry about it since I change fuel filters religiously. Your speed sensor in your transfer case more than likely won't work, but maybe you can put a gm one in the same hole? I'd use the dodge D60 you have, just ditch the 2 piece RH axle. Or keep it and get rid of the vacuum actuator and get a posi-lok kit, or build one. The dodge steering may suck stock, but money cures that. If you purchase a borgeson steering box and steering shaft, adjustable heavy duty track bar, and a steering box brace, they are night and day difference. Those borgeson pieces are expensive, but do the job and last. If I'm thinking correctly, the chevy steering box moves in the same manner as the dodge, so you might be able to shorten or lengthen the dodge drag link and hook it to the chevy steering box.

I found this for the steering
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...rs_p_1337.html

A lot more research and measurements have to go into this first.

[Dieselwrencher]

Originally Posted by Ackattack

I found this for the steering
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...rs_p_1337.html

A lot more research and measurements have to go into this first.

That's good they're still in business. I tried buying a cross over kit from them a while back and their voice mail said they were going out of business. I was in shock.

[ryanroo]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

That's good they're still in business. I tried buying a cross over kit from them a while back and their voice mail said they were going out of business. I was in shock.

WHAT! that would stink. i've bought a few things from them and they were always easy to deal with and the stuff was good. but ive had good luck with ruffstuff also.

Ryan