Simple TBI build

[redneckwheelman2]

Originally Posted by ZacharyDouglas1992

Sometimes eBay's search function is finicky. I didn't find it with the search actually, I frequent that seller's page because his shop is local and I bought some heads from him recently. I remembered seeing the adapter and checked his page to see if he still had it.

Also in case you need it, Dorman 82560 is a part no. for a kit that should have the right sized o ring for the adapter. and it comes with a the small rings that worked on the cooler lines as well. mines an 83 k3500 with a 454, but I think the parts are all the same.

dont get that dorman part for the o ring gaskets for the oil cooler adapter. the big o ring that seals the adapter to the block is to thin. go to the dealer and get the gm kit for it, its like 5 bucks cheaper at the dealer. if you get the parts store kits youll have a nasty oil leak that you cant get to seal up... i tried the dorman kit on my tbi 350 started leaking oil as soon as i pulled it out of the garage.

[redneckwheelman2]

also what are you going to do for controlling the 4l80? doing a standalone controller or are you switching ecms to a newer one? im kinda curious

[chris989]

Originally Posted by redneckwheelman2

also what are you going to do for controlling the 4l80? doing a standalone controller or are you switching ecms to a newer one? im kinda curious

I had a 1991 computer but was lacking the correct harness so i decided although the TCI/fast controller. It is expensive but i thought it would save a lot of headaches and i can have different setting for towing and regular driving.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-302820


I am waiting for the SYE for the 241. should be here by Friday and i hope to have it running by March.

Chris

[ironroad9c1]

I hate to see someone install a flat tappet cam into a roller engine and then say they want efficiency , The main reason GM went to roller cams was reduced friction. Plus, you have a brand new engine, and as someone before said Id hate to see your engine ruined buy running a lobe flat. Thinking of a flat tappet cam going bad keeps me up at night. Im to the point now I don't even look at flat tappet blocks anymore, I love roller cams. I am looking for the same results for my 85 though, I have a set of LO5 heads that are looking for a New home, but Ill keep mine carbed for now,

[chris989]

Originally Posted by ironroad9c1

I hate to see someone install a flat tappet cam into a roller engine and then say they want efficiency , The main reason GM went to roller cams was reduced friction. Plus, you have a brand new engine, and as someone before said Id hate to see your engine ruined buy running a lobe flat. Thinking of a flat tappet cam going bad keeps me up at night. Im to the point now I don't even look at flat tappet blocks anymore, I love roller cams. I am looking for the same results for my 85 though, I have a set of LO5 heads that are looking for a New home, but Ill keep mine carbed for now,

I get the benefits of the roller cam but in this instance i wanted to build something low buck to see what could be made with some basic parts and a better drive train. The roller set up would add ~700 to the build vs 100 for my flat tappet cam. I also did not want to get into too much programming. If this set up works well it may help guide others to a easy drivable build. If i was to go roller I would have started with the vortec/roller crate but again, I did not want to fool with EGR, emission inspection, knock sensor, bla bla bla. If in the end i can not get the power needed from this TBI I will install better heads and a roller set up.

Truth be told, I have seen many more roller failures than flat tappet. I am currently running flat tappets in my 78 f250, 67 camaro, both 80 CJ7s. In 30 years of building motors I have never personally seen a flat tappet failure. I know oil has changed but without enormous spring pressure i feel the risk is very low.

I hope to have it running in a few weeks, I am waiting for the slip joint eliminator for the 241

[kalbert]

I'm not understanding the concern with using a flat tappet cam. They require proper prelube and break-in, but aside from that what is the concern with lobes going flat? Are cams not made of the same material anymore that this is all of the sudden a big problem? Yea a roller setup would be best, but this isn't a high RPM build, its a low-mid RPM build. I'd think the ROI for roller to be minimal unless there's something new about flat tappets that make them scarier?

[chris989]

Originally Posted by kalbert

I'm not understanding the concern with using a flat tappet cam. They require proper prelube and break-in, but aside from that what is the concern with lobes going flat? Are cams not made of the same material anymore that this is all of the sudden a big problem? Yea a roller setup would be best, but this isn't a high RPM build, its a low-mid RPM build. I'd think the ROI for roller to be minimal unless there's something new about flat tappets that make them scarier?

There are a tons of opinions about rollers and flats. Cams are a complicated choice and the one most easily messed up. I won more races against over camed/carbed motors than any other combination.

There are millions of flat tappets cams running today without any issue?

But as for this build you are correct about the ROI. The TBI heads have a very small intake runner that increases the air/fuel velocity at low RPMs. The correct Lob Sep and exhaust is probably more important that anything. I will agree that the roller would open the valve a little sooner but not sure if it would make big hp gains.

I think a lot of people look at the roller/flat lobes side by size and the roller looks a lot more aggressive. The reality is the contact area of the lifter reacts differently and they open relatively the same.

The roller does have an advantage.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams...tOrRoller.aspx

[kdh454]

I'm not sure if your set on the TCI controller or have already purchased it, but I was recently looking for a controller for my 4L80E and settled on using a MicroSquirt controller. They are fairly new. I was not familiar with them, but the transmission builder used them himself and convinced me I would have no issues with it. The biggest plus for me is that it was almost $200 cheaper than the TCI. If you have the harness for the transmission and more time than money, you can save another $100 by just buying the controller without the transmission harness and wiring it up yourself.

I have not had a chance to install my 4l80 yet so I cannot comment yet on how it works out. The transmission builder was nice enough to leave my transmission on the dyno so he could show me the software and tuning process in action. Looks simple enough to me.

Anyway, here is a link if anyone is interested. I'll post up my thoughts after I get it installed in about two weeks.

http://www.efisource.com/shop/micros...transmissions/

[ZacharyDouglas1992]

Originally Posted by redneckwheelman2

dont get that dorman part for the o ring gaskets for the oil cooler adapter. the big o ring that seals the adapter to the block is to thin. go to the dealer and get the gm kit for it, its like 5 bucks cheaper at the dealer. if you get the parts store kits youll have a nasty oil leak that you cant get to seal up... i tried the dorman kit on my tbi 350 started leaking oil as soon as i pulled it out of the garage.

That is unfortunate to hear. I have ran their kit before without it failing, but I am not surprised to hear your experience. I've purchased two of the same aftermarket part before - and have had them look nothing like each-other. I purchased it at the time because my buddy needed to take his blazer back to his base that night and that is all time would allow for.

For what its worth, here are some GM part numbers useful for the cooler adapter

10244495 Oil cooler adapter seal
25013759 Oil cooler bypass valve
14102025 Oil cooler gasket

[slotard]

Originally Posted by chris989

I get the benefits of the roller cam but in this instance i wanted to build something low buck to see what could be made with some basic parts and a better drive train. The roller set up would add ~700 to the build vs 100 for my flat tappet cam. I also did not want to get into too much programming. If this set up works well it may help guide others to a easy drivable build. If i was to go roller I would have started with the vortec/roller crate but again, I did not want to fool with EGR, emission inspection, knock sensor, bla bla bla. If in the end i can not get the power needed from this TBI I will install better heads and a roller set up.

Truth be told, I have seen many more roller failures than flat tappet. I am currently running flat tappets in my 78 f250, 67 camaro, both 80 CJ7s. In 30 years of building motors I have never personally seen a flat tappet failure. I know oil has changed but without enormous spring pressure i feel the risk is very low.

I hope to have it running in a few weeks, I am waiting for the slip joint eliminator for the 241

I wouldn't have expected anywhere near $700 in a factory roller block. You can get a Comp cam/lifter kit from Summit for $450: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...et?prefilter=1 not saying that's the one you want, just an example that I found.

A friend of mine had a 350 wipe a lobe which trashed a lot of the engine. Ever since then, he's made sure to run oils with enough ZDDP or additives... it's bad for catalytic converters, which is why most modern oil doesn't have much. With roller lifters you can run whatever.

[kalbert]

The cam & lifter kit is only part of the formula. You'd also need the keepers and spider, cam retainer, and to drill and tap the bosses for the retainer and spider. It'd be riskier to drill and tap a partially assembled engine and hope you catch all the pieces than to break in a flat cam with some care. Not arguing the roller cams are not generally better, they just aren't always necessary.

[chris989]

Originally Posted by surly66

Chris,

I just finished installing the same GM L05 from Summit in my 87. I also used the Edelbrock 3704 and stock TBI. I am curious to see how you deal with a few of the snags that I ran into using the aftermarket manifold. Can't wait to see your updates! Have fun!

Tony

Got a few pictures of the corrections that need to be made if someone buy the Edlebrock TBI intake. It is nothing hard,, just time consuming


Drill and tap the front of the intake for the AC bracket.



I shortened my brake booster line and used the first step in a double flare to give me a small bulb at the end of the steel line







The fuel lines are still in the way of the rear vacuum port. I am thinking of plugging it and using a 3/16th tee off of one of the lines from the front. It only runs the heat/ac stuff inside. I will see if it throws a code when the if the vacuum spikes in that little line.

I might end up making custom lines because my original link had a kink and i found a set at the junk yard but i am not sure how decent they are to run.

[chris989]

On a different subject,,

I started on the rear springs tonight. I bought a set of factory springs for a one ton truck. The arch is two inches greater and the capacity is 2600 vs my OEMs 2300

I was running a 2 inch block but with the new spring i sit the same height without the block so it looks like the free arch holds up with the weight of the truck. I assume it will settle some so the block may go back in in the future.
Part number 22-547
http://www.generalspringkc.com/product_p/22-547.htm ( i bought local but the link gives you the specs)

[weider1717]

What is the hp rating of this engine with stock intake etc? don't see it listed on their site like the other engines.

[surly66]

Originally Posted by weider1717

What is the hp rating of this engine with stock intake etc? don't see it listed on their site like the other engines.

This P/N (12568758) was listed as a direct replacement for my application (1987 R10, VIN K, 1/2T with AT). Several websites list the advertised output of 210hp at 4000 rpm and 300 ft/lbs at 2800 rpm. The GM literature that I have from 1987 lists two different outputs based on GVWR (see pic). With the Flowmasters, mine sounds pretty good, so I'm going with the higher rating

[chris989]

I might run this down to a local shop and dyno it for fun after it is complete. I think it will be a shock to see how little gets to the wheels compares to the flywheel.


Right now i am hung up on the SYE kit. I reinstalled the front have of the t-case tonight so i could get on with driveshafts and exhaust.


If anyone has pics of exhaust and clocked T-cases,, please share.

Chris

[chris989]

gave up trying to find a small block 4l80 cover so i cut the two i had apart and welded them back together.





Waiting on a clocking ring for the 241 and mocking up the exhaust, getting closer.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by kalbert

I'm not understanding the concern with using a flat tappet cam. They require proper prelube and break-in, but aside from that what is the concern with lobes going flat? Are cams not made of the same material anymore that this is all of the sudden a big problem? Yea a roller setup would be best, but this isn't a high RPM build, its a low-mid RPM build. I'd think the ROI for roller to be minimal unless there's something new about flat tappets that make them scarier?

Originally Posted by kalbert

The cam & lifter kit is only part of the formula. You'd also need the keepers and spider, cam retainer, and to drill and tap the bosses for the retainer and spider. It'd be riskier to drill and tap a partially assembled engine and hope you catch all the pieces than to break in a flat cam with some care. Not arguing the roller cams are not generally better, they just aren't always necessary.

It's not so much the cam material but today's oil. It doesn't have the ZDDP that it use to. There have been been a lot more cam failures because of it but Im thinking it's from improper break-in and not taking the steps needed to make sure it survives. In this case the OEM flat tappet should give no trouble provided some sort of the correct oil is used or a additive is used like EOS.

As far as the roller cam goes, you don't need to have a high rpm engine just to use one. Every production engine uses one today. Most of the roller failures I've seen are from using OEM or cheap retro lifters on on a high performance camshaft. And most of the blocks should be dried these days. Not all did back in the day but I would think they are now. Finding a spider and dog bones isn't hard. Used is just fine for these and they are all over ebay. And using g GM lifters with a OEM roller core camshaft will certainly keep costs down.

With that said, the OP has decided to keep it a flat tappet and clearly has the engine buttoned up so no sense in diving into it now.

[redneckwheelman2]

When you say clocking ring do you mean your reclocking the transfer case or just getting a new adapter? The one from the 400 is the same as the 4l80 just the tranny mount bolts are farther forward on the 400 adapter which you'd need to trim the mount to clear the oil pan.
I'm just using the one from my 4l80 since there in the center of the adapter. And since the passenger drop 208 mounts the same as the drivers drop 241 that was behind the 80e.

[chris989]

Originally Posted by redneckwheelman2

When you say clocking ring do you mean your reclocking the transfer case or just getting a new adapter? The one from the 400 is the same as the 4l80 just the tranny mount bolts are farther forward on the 400 adapter which you'd need to trim the mount to clear the oil pan.
I'm just using the one from my 4l80 since there in the center of the adapter. And since the passenger drop 208 mounts the same as the drivers drop 241 that was behind the 80e.

I am thinking of the clocking ring to rotate the t-case up. Measuring from the fluid pump pick (flat area on the bottom of the case) it is ~26 degrees. It can easily go up 9 or 16 and still clear the floor pan.

Since i am running only a 2 inch lift i don't think it will affect my front drive shaft at all. My only concern is it leaking. I read a lot of post about the ring leaking and that would drive me insane. I do not know if it is a real concern or not. I spoke to ORD and he said that they do like to leak but can be sealed if installed properly.

I just found this link to a guy that make a DYI clocking adapter. Waiting for a call back.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/motor...ngagement.html
I will take a few pics this morning and post.

Chris

[kalbert]

I guess I'm out of the loop on cam failures due to newer motor oil additive formulations. I haven't seen nor heard of an alarming number of failures. Just guys reporting they know a guy who's brother in law damaged a camshaft and they surmised it must have been the oil that caused it because SN can't be as good as the old SD was.

[chris989]

Originally Posted by kalbert

I guess I'm out of the loop on cam failures due to newer motor oil additive formulations. I haven't seen nor heard of an alarming number of failures. Just guys reporting they know a guy who's brother in law damaged a camshaft and they surmised it must have been the oil that caused it because SN can't be as good as the old SD was.

Someone correct me if I am wrong,,, Doesn't Cumins Diesels still run flat tappets?

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by kalbert

I guess I'm out of the loop on cam failures due to newer motor oil additive formulations. I haven't seen nor heard of an alarming number of failures. Just guys reporting they know a guy who's brother in law damaged a camshaft and they surmised it must have been the oil that caused it because SN can't be as good as the old SD was.

Not sure what SN and SD is but its a known fact that the oil companys stopped adding the anti-wear zddp quite a while ago. Some oils do still have it but very low amounts of it. Some are designed to have it purposely like Brad Penn oil. Check out Team Chevelle, plenty of cam failure stories over there. This isnt something new, been about the last 15 years or so.

[chris989]

Just about ready to fire this motor sometime next week, All of the small details suck up so much time.

I have been meaning to share info about custom brake lines. Some of you will love it, some will be skeptical.
I ordered longer lines from a vendor once and threw them in the trash. It was a braided hose with a handful of fittings to make them adapt.

I then found a local company that will make DOT approved lines exactly like the OEM or from braided and at whatever length you want. The beauty is it is cheaper than the junk for sale.

Now that i live 500 miles from them they still did my work, I sent them in a flat rate box with a return label inside.

Take a look.


braze the OEM banjo to new MADE IS USA line



new ends


I run them on all of my projects (ford and jeep have smoked braided stainless) and couldn't be happier. The company is ALLhose on Post rd in Las Vegas. They normally do not do mail order stuff but if you called them ahead I am sure they would make them for you. Or you could PM me and i could tell you who to talk to.

MOD=== this is not an advertisement, please do not delete. It might help some members for a custom project.

Thanks,

[chris989]

Need a little help


I am getting ready to fire this thing up and I have no power on half my fuse block. I have traced it to the same wire as the alternator.

The wire diagram show the the wire feeding the panel and also running back to the battery. It indicates to ring terminals but it could also be a slice somewhere within the wire loom that is now all buttoned up tight.

If anyone has a truck in this era, do you have two main wires from the alt. (one to bat and one to fuse panel? If I run a jumper, everything powers up as it should. I either lost the wire to the battery or i have a break in the single/splice wire somewhere.

Thanks in advance,
Chris