47-55.1 S10 Frame Swap on 47-53 - Would you do it again?

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

You really think it's a "look at me?" In my first post I make it clear that I am simply saying "what are YOUR expectations" to the person thinking about doing the swap that has became a "Must" apparently. I don't talk about me until someone says something personal that is against everything I said

Brian

its called denial. you are clearly in it. have anyone you know read your posts after he asked you three times to stop.

my favorite is when you told him that HIS THREAD was actually taking place in YOUR GARAGE and you were the wise sage giving advice. (paraphrasing)

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by joedoh

its called denial. you are clearly in it. have anyone you know read your posts after he asked you three times to stop.

my favorite is when you told him that HIS THREAD was actually taking place in YOUR GARAGE and you were the wise sage giving advice. (paraphrasing)

But you get my point don't you? All these threads, this whole forum is like hanging out in the garage with a beer, talking about trucks. That's all it meant, don't put more into it. We should be chatting about these cool trucks with a smile, that's all I mean.

It's like at a car show, I will go up and check out these trucks and enjoy them. Darn near every single one of them, customized, stock, frame swapped, I don't give a crap, I dig these trucks.

That's all, just chatting about Advance design trucks!

Brian

[burnin oil]

Joedoh,
19k is outrageous. I personally feel that if you can weld in body mounts a mustang2 front, or a 4 link you can build a frame. Square tubing is not that expensive and you could fab it to any dimension you like, including width. Now with that said how hard would it be to move any suspension to the old frame? Guys are doing vette stuff on the tri 5s. There are options and the original post was would you do it again. That means is this the way to go. Sure you can cut up a body to make it fit any frame.

There are plenty of suspensions out there but saying 70 year old tech is short sighted. Leafs have been around fore ever and work. The mustang 2 setup is 50 years old. Coil springs and control arms arnt new ideas either. How about torsion bar. Rides awesome and still in use by Chevrolet last I checked. None of this is new. You are just looking at newer engineering of old ideas. Sorry that is the fact. Now brakes have definatley improved but that is also swapable.

My 57 GMC is sitting in the que behind alot of other projects so I look at what people are doing here. Its a 1 ton and will remain on the original frame and from there I will mod it to my tastes. For now back up and running. Once its turn is here it will get a 4x4 conversion on a boxed factory frame with a cummins diesel. Love the style but I need my dream truck to be functional since it will become the daily drive at that point.

[Nick_R_23]

Originally Posted by burnin oil

Joedoh,
19k is outrageous. I personally feel that if you can weld in body mounts a mustang2 front, or a 4 link you can build a frame. Square tubing is not that expensive and you could fab it to any dimension you like, including width. Now with that said how hard would it be to move any suspension to the old frame? Guys are doing vette stuff on the tri 5s. There are options and the original post was would you do it again. That means is this the way to go. Sure you can cut up a body to make it fit any frame.

There are plenty of suspensions out there but saying 70 year old tech is short sighted. Leafs have been around fore ever and work. The mustang 2 setup is 50 years old. Coil springs and control arms arnt new ideas either. How about torsion bar. Rides awesome and still in use by Chevrolet last I checked. None of this is new. You are just looking at newer engineering of old ideas. Sorry that is the fact. Now brakes have definatley improved but that is also swapable.

My 57 GMC is sitting in the que behind alot of other projects so I look at what people are doing here. Its a 1 ton and will remain on the original frame and from there I will mod it to my tastes. For now back up and running. Once its turn is here it will get a 4x4 conversion on a boxed factory frame with a cummins diesel. Love the style but I need my dream truck to be functional since it will become the daily drive at that point.

Eh, $19K isn’t a bad deal considering what you’re getting. You’re starting off with a brand new, fully boxed frame. Rack and pinion steering with late model suspension geometry, usually based off a C4, C5, or C6, so you get IFS. Many come loaded with all suspension components including coil overs. Fabricated rear axle in whatever width you want. Choices of 3 link, 4 link, or IRS. Built to clear most modern engine and transmission combinations, and include mounts and crossmember. Bolt your powertrain, body, and wheels on and go. Plus, built on a jig for straightness. I’d have a hard time reproducing that in my own shop at the same level of engineering and quality for the price. It’s definitely a steep investment though, no doubt about that.

Yeah, 70 year old tech is a bit of a oversimplification, but the stock components are far outdated. Kingpin axles, straight axles, 2” wide leaf springs, pivoting axles, torque tubes (yes, I’m aware Corvettes use a modern version), and non self-adjusting brakes are things of history. Even the MII IFS is a pretty bad design by today’s standards. Love me some torsion bars though.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by burnin oil

Joedoh,
19k is outrageous. I personally feel that if you can weld in body mounts a mustang2 front, or a 4 link you can build a frame. Square tubing is not that expensive and you could fab it to any dimension you like, including width. Now with that said how hard would it be to move any suspension to the old frame? Guys are doing vette stuff on the tri 5s. There are options and the original post was would you do it again. That means is this the way to go. Sure you can cut up a body to make it fit any frame.

There are plenty of suspensions out there but saying 70 year old tech is short sighted. Leafs have been around fore ever and work. The mustang 2 setup is 50 years old. Coil springs and control arms arnt new ideas either. How about torsion bar. Rides awesome and still in use by Chevrolet last I checked. None of this is new. You are just looking at newer engineering of old ideas. Sorry that is the fact. Now brakes have definatley improved but that is also swapable.

My 57 GMC is sitting in the que behind alot of other projects so I look at what people are doing here. Its a 1 ton and will remain on the original frame and from there I will mod it to my tastes. For now back up and running. Once its turn is here it will get a 4x4 conversion on a boxed factory frame with a cummins diesel. Love the style but I need my dream truck to be functional since it will become the daily drive at that point.

sorry, saying "you could" isnt the same as doing it and providing the numbers.



19k IS outrageous, but for a turn key frame thats what it costs. you can buy builder kits that are are the components for less, but guys buy bolt on s10 kits and bolt on MII kits for a reason. there was a $2k kit to put the S10 components on the stock frame, Coach used one. there was a 1500 kit to use dakota parts. both required you to source your own arms and steering box. neither are in production any more. there are kits to use C4 components. kits that offer a better version of the top hat MII. they all cost more in component form, than buying an S10 frame. the cost/value is always what makes it attractive.

plenty of show worthy trucks have been built on s10 frames, there was a cool powder blue chopped and sectioned one on this forum a couple months ago. but not everyone is going for that. plenty of MII have been put on daily driven trucks that wont ever see a show. nothing is wrong with that either. I can show you how to put a truck together that will drive to work every day, haul a load of mulch or bricks without a problem, and your wife/daughter/mom can all get in and drive it without special instructions. all the controls match modern layout and it drives well mannered. its easy to have a successful project when someone else has paved the road, done what you plan to do. s10 swaps, MII, full frame, all those variants I described of kits and components, all projects exist in the project section. if you want a stock truck they make that guide too, its called the factory assembly manual, certainly nothing new under the sun there.

plenty of people see the real numbers in the cost of the swaps and say "I can beat that easy", thats a real problem in my opinion because you have hard data on the costs and the reality of the work and somehow you will do it better. well, good luck! 19k in a full chassis sounds high till you put a value your time and materials to get to that level. I am not saying I think thats the way to go, I certainly dont put hours in a spreadsheet for my labor. just making the case that for some it makes sense, and for others, well, they say "I can do better".


I dont advocate one way or the other, pick what works for you, and if you want info on doing an S10 frame I can help. at the end of the day YOU are driving it. what really bothers me are the hypocrites, the guys who have something to say with no real experience in it. they cherry pick the problems and harp, under the guise of helping when all they are doing is complaining. it would be better if they just worked on their trucks, even if they just need the facotory assembly manual, even if they just need an instruction sheet for a MII, anything. build your reputation by DOING. not talking or typing. "I'm gonna" never finished a thing.

[burnin oil]

Joedoh. That was a great post. I agree whole heartedly with what you are saying. I can actually see both sides of this debate and in my original post I said I didn't have a dog in the hunt. I just wanted to see the light on this particular frame swap. It just seems like alot of work to make that particular frame work so there had to be a good reason for using it. Where I live the 2wd thing Is just out of the question so everything has to be 4x4 for me unless you enjoy hooking a logging chain to it every time you take it for a spin. That gets older than manual adjust brakes! I go through the same hassles when I do a build but I use different parts. Thanks for the spirited debate and we ended up in the same place. I hope that doesn't sound sarcastic because it isn't ment to be.

[joedoh]

no sarcasm read. it CAN be a lot of work, anything can. pick your battles. you may want a V8 and think its a waste of time putting it together with a V6 until its running and driving. but taking multiple inert lumps and coaxing them to life together as a whole project can take longer than getting it running and doing a motor swap in a weekend. dont take EVERYTHING apart, even though deconstruction is fun and easy, leaving the front clip together is a great way to save time both fitting and adjusting.

[dsraven]

joedoh makes some great points. don't try to get everything apart in a real rush. take apart slow enough to take pics, bag and tag stuff that goes together. assemble nuts on studs and bolts back in holes etc. sometimes you think you will just be storing the parts until you get that part done and have plans on a certain way you wanna build something using something else then chucking those parts later anyway. well, things can change during a build and then you are left wondering where the heck that funny looking little bolt went or how did this go together again? you can figure it out but it is easier if you can spend the research time actually working on the truck instead.

-take a pic of the item assembled. download the pics at the end of the day onto a memory stick or at least a file appropriately named. you would be surprised to find how hard it is to remember the little things like how the door rubber goes on or some other minor but important detail.
-dissassemle it
-put fasteners back in holes and nuts back on bolts etc to simulate how it was taken apart, not just mumbo jumbo
-bag it
-tag it
-box it
-label the box. sometimes a date can be good to put on it too. then you know how long it has been since you bagged and tagged. it will surprise you.

-another good point made. if it was a running driving donor the sometimes it is best to leave it a running driving drivetrain. pick the right donor and the build will go better. it's nice to keep momentum going when you assemble some stuff and you can actually get it to start and drive. doing an engine swap after is sometimes better because it is do-able in a short burst project, like a long weekend engine swap.
-another good point made. keep units together if possible, like the front clip. it is moveable with an engine lift by yourself for fitment as you go through the swap or easily and faster with a buddy helping. it takes less space to store as a unit and there are less fasteners in bags etc if it is still all in one piece. that way the frame swap is shorter time duration because the clip either fits or it doesn't and more work is required to make it fit. less guess work on wheel fitment in the openings etc
-another thing guys will do is start collecting a bunch of parts from like vehicles because they are possibly in better shape. thats a great idea if you have the space. I suggest to keep the doors with the cab they started with until the frame swap is done though, then swap them OR swap and fit the doors before taking anything apart and then brace the cab so stuff stays put. if you start with a floppy cab and don't brace anything up before you take the cab off because you plan to fix the holes after, you may find the parts don't fit well when they are pushed back into the spot where they were supposed to be in the first place.

[Nick_R_23]

I think an extension of that is a lot of guys get caught up with “project creep”, and I’m certainly guilty of doing it. What starts off as a stock engine, stock transmission, stock suspension build because you start off saying that’s all you really need, can quickly turn into a twin turbo stroker LS with 6 speed transmission, 4 link rear end on bags or coil overs, big brake kit, C5 IFS, etc, because you look at it and go “Well, I’m already in here and it wouldn’t be THAT much more to do xxxx...” and that can stall out a project for a very long time. Something I’ve learned through the years of building cars is that if it’s apart for too long, it’s easy to lose interest or become burned out on building it, because that’s all you’re ever doing to the car. The more you can drive and enjoy it in the meantime and see the fruits of your labor, the more you’ll be able to keep going on it. The Roadkill guys really said it best - Don’t get it perfect, just get it going. Not that you shouldn’t work to perfect your ride, but you don’t have to do it all in one go. Swap a rear end one weekend. Drive it for a few months and upgrade the transmission, or suspension. Nothing wrong with a 305 or a V6 if it gets you out cruising while you set aside for something better, rather than not driving at all because you’re holding out for only the best, perfect engine. Slowly improve it and get to enjoy the drive while you do!

[joedoh]

absolutely nick. sometimes it like I said, you "sell" the project to yourself on a lie, you have really no intention of settling for the V6 (or 4 cylinder!) and will stab yourself in the back first chance you get. other times its the "while I am in there" projects, where you say welllll I have this all apart and it makes sense to spent an extra day/$200 and later in of project you are asking "how did I miss my cost and time targets by so much? why is it 5-10-50 years later and my truck doesnt run and drive?"

[dsraven]

yup, well put. I know some builds were state of the art cutting edge for some things at the time those things were done in the timeline of the build but, by the time the whole project was done those items were old news. they are still cool but not as cutting edge as they would have been had the "reveal" of the new project been done earlier.

[layinrocker65]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

I think an extension of that is a lot of guys get caught up with “project creep”, and I’m certainly guilty of doing it. What starts off as a stock engine, stock transmission, stock suspension build because you start off saying that’s all you really need, can quickly turn into a twin turbo stroker LS with 6 speed transmission, 4 link rear end on bags or coil overs, big brake kit, C5 IFS, etc, because you look at it and go “Well, I’m already in here and it wouldn’t be THAT much more to do xxxx...” and that can stall out a project for a very long time. Something I’ve learned through the years of building cars is that if it’s apart for too long, it’s easy to lose interest or become burned out on building it, because that’s all you’re ever doing to the car. The more you can drive and enjoy it in the meantime and see the fruits of your labor, the more you’ll be able to keep going on it. The Roadkill guys really said it best - Don’t get it perfect, just get it going. Not that you shouldn’t work to perfect your ride, but you don’t have to do it all in one go. Swap a rear end one weekend. Drive it for a few months and upgrade the transmission, or suspension. Nothing wrong with a 305 or a V6 if it gets you out cruising while you set aside for something better, rather than not driving at all because you’re holding out for only the best, perfect engine. Slowly improve it and get to enjoy the drive while you do!

That’s a really good point. That was a great part of originally building my Syclone. It was never down for more than a month or two. I was always getting to drive it and didn’t really get burned out. The only issue with that was I was constantly wanting to upgrade things that I had already done so I spent way more money at the end. Really a double edged sword. For my ‘53, I figured out where I wanted it to be at the end and that’s exactly how I’m building it. Just lucky that the S10 frame fit into my plan and saved me a ton of money. It will take more time but will save money at the end.

[burnin oil]

You guys have some really good pointers. Here is one that has been the pitfall of many projects. Make sure life will not get in the way as much as possible. All my stuff is on hold as I clear land for a shop. The back hoe went down and the house needs reroofed. The half rebuilt axle for my 57 has been sitting for about 2 months behind the house waiting on me to fab the out of production spreader bar. Luckily it is a newer doner so the truck can be moved even though it doesn't have brakes. I have a motor sitting here to go in the jeep that didn't get rebuilt before winter hit and I have been waiting on spring to end to install it and roof the house. Working shade tree style has its drawbacks. Moral of the story is get life down to 4 or 5 irons in the fire before you start because something else will always take precedence. The build section is full of projects that took 3 year brakes.

When I redid my 72 I had the floor pans welded in and doors repaired. I rolled her into the parents barn and was out the door in under 30 days. It can be done quickly and on a budget if the timing is right.

[hollisc10]

I would do the s10 swap again myself. I'm hoping to do a suburban on one at some point.

[joedoh]

hollisc10 how about a larger picture of your truck? looks like a 47-48 GMC, those have special grilles and bumpers, and thats my favorite front end for an AD

[28TudorAZ]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

Stop. You have come into this thread and solicited unwanted opinions that were the complete opposite of the purpose of this thread, even when I explicitly asked only for information from those with experience, and then derailed it with unrelated rambling. This is not the first thread you have done this in either. Please only continue to post in here once you have completed an S10 frame swap and can provide first hand insight with your experience.

To all others, thank you for your information! I'll be continuing to read through many of the build threads here and gather ideas.

LOL...he did the same thing to my build thread too. Also talked how many people don't finish the swap. I wish I could give you more advice but since I have never put in IFS on the AD I wouldn't be able to compare the 2 builds. I will say I love driving it. Now that I am getting all the interior completed and rattles are going away it really drives nice. I did nothing besides dropped spindles and 2 inch blocks in the back. The fronts have 1 inch spacers on the wheels in the front and 3" in the back. I plan on getting some new wheels with the correct offset and replacing the rear end with a 4x4 axles with disc brakes. I get thumbs up and people talk to me about it everywhere I go.

[28TudorAZ]

Funny...I was reading through my thread to see what was said. Mind you this was 2 years ago. I am going to quote one of my favorite builders on this site.

Originally Posted by joedoh

brian, never in history has someone spent so much effort telling other people how they should/could build their trucks and spent so little time building his own. physician, heal thyself!

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by 28TudorAZ

Funny...I was reading through my thread to see what was said. Mind you this was 2 years ago. I am going to quote one of my favorite builders on this site.

Yeah that cracks me up too! Joe is so cute. I make it clear in my opinion about this subject to simply THINK ABOUT IT. What is so bad about that? I don't say DON'T DO IT! I say think about it, what are your expectations of your truck? That is all I really say and I get beat up for it. And working on my truck, yep, it's been a long time, many years. In the mean time as it was sitting out back I did a restoration on my 65 Buick Gran Sport convertible doing the top and all, I did my 59 Rambler that got a rebuilt motor and all the brakes and yada yada all done in my garage with my truck sitting out back, sorry. I have helped build other cars that made into magazines and winning best in class at the GNRS.

Yep, I have built plenty, but because I have seen people make mistakes where they do stuff that really wasn't needed for their truck I am a jerk because I simply say to people "think about it, what are your expectations?" A simple dropped axle may get them what they need, where they could be on the road having fun in days. That's all I say to think about it and decide before you move forward knowing you are doing what is right for you. That's all I say and somehow that's not something I should say.

That is so wild,

Brian

[Rickysnickers]

"LOL...he did the same thing to my build thread too."

This finally got settled down and we were back to discussing the topic at hand. If this continues any further, then this thread will be locked.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by 28TudorAZ

that looks great and you finished super fast!

[MARTINSR]

Sorry for making a suggestion.

Brian

[lgh1157]

No

[_Ogre]

Originally Posted by lgh1157

No

Tell us how you really feel

[vintovka]

Ok, at risk of returning to OP basic inquiry has anyone used a 4x4 S10 chassis? Did i miss something?

[joedoh]

lots of 4x4 guys out there, I have done kits for 5-6 guys, 2 of them have "finished" their trucks and the rest have the body mounted.

the points they make are:

if you start with an ext cab the frame has to be shortened behind the torsion bar crossmember.

the max you can move the engine/trans/transfer case back is 2 3/8" before the transfer case hits the crossmember. you can get more if you notch the crossmember. this impacts your radiator clearance, gotta move it in front of the core support with a v8 swap.

if you start with a longbed s10 truck lining up the sheetmetal is easier than with a 2wd (because of the height off the frame/ride height)

my kit parts will work with a 4x4 except the front bumper mounts which need some slight modification.

there was a guy who built his own brackets and did a 4x4 one on here. looked really good. dont forget maintsg truck too, he converted to 2wd with a 4x4 frame.