S10 Swap how to

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by lgh1157

I still reference this thread often, its great. . . .

I have a question:
Why move the steering column over to the left ? ( other than centering it in the gauges ) is there another reason other than the gauges ? ?

I mocked up my column today using the upper stock mount and the lower column firewall hole and it seemed great where the stock location is

Thx !

do you have the motor in? your question may be answered by looking at where the steering shaft needs to run. in my trucks moving it over that small amount was the difference between a $200 steering hookup and a $400 steeing hookup with heim and extra joints. I also mount my engine to the passenger side slightly as well

[lgh1157]

Originally Posted by joedoh

do you have the motor in? your question may be answered by looking at where the steering shaft needs to run. in my trucks moving it over that small amount was the difference between a $200 steering hookup and a $400 steeing hookup with heim and extra joints. I also mount my engine to the passenger side slightly as well

Hey
Thanks for the quick repsonse
I do have the engine in, headers on, booster and brake pedal in
If i move the column to the left i think i would have a tighter clearance through the headers

It would seems dropping the column slightly may help with the connection

Here are some pics :

[lgh1157]

Pics attached

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by lgh1157

Hey
Thanks for the quick repsonse
I do have the engine in, headers on, booster and brake pedal in
If i move the column to the left i think i would have a tighter clearance through the headers

It would seems dropping the column slightly may help with the connection

Here are some pics :

there is your answer, do what fits! no "tab a in slot b" universal advice on this swap haha.

[OutlawDrifter]

johdoh has done some pre-war pickups, and I believe he has mounts made up.

[joedoh]

I am working on the 41-46 kit now, here is the protopye truck in process. the frame will need notched in the corners,

almost nothing in this thread applies to the prewars. I should have mine TRL8 (ready to shoot holes in it) this week though, so I will update as I go.

[dsraven]

1157, have you thought about some cast manifolds so you don't have to run a steering shaft through the header pipes? thats gonna be hot and may cook the lube out of the u joints not to mention what happens if a motor mount lets go on a burn out or a header gets baahed or whatever.

[joedoh]

I sell a laser cut mount kit in as little or as much as you want. cab mounts only? sure. full 26 pc kit including bumpers? sure. giving the vendor membership a shot on here. Forum members get a $20 discount!

check out

https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=832482

[Rickysnickers]

Thank you for stepping up to Gold Vendor status! I hope you sell many!

[oldman3]

Russ, great looking parts, if I ever do an S-10 conversion, I will get this from you...Jim

[joedoh]

thanks jim!

[Father&son56project]

Can anyone advise what type of master cylinder is used on a stock 1996 S10 (power brakes-front disk, rear drums)? I have had an issue with the brake pedal slowly sinking and after numerous bleeds of the system with no improvement I am going to install a new master cylinder. The issue is the bleeding technique. The instructions from the manufacturer (Cardone) have very specific instructions about “How to bleed a step bore master cylinder”, however these instructions come with ALL of their master cylinders, so they only apply to those models of the step bore design. The problem is that I have no idea if this new master cylinder is a step bore or a conventional design. I spent a good 2 hours consulting the Great Google Oracle and got zippo for my efforts. I want to get this right (I’m sick of bleeding this system!), so can anyone advise what type of master cylinder I have?

[joedoh]

i gravity bleed the fronts and pressure bleed the rear with the "tube in a jar of fluid" method. make sure you watch the fluid level carefully or you will start over.

most of my problem low pedal pressure is fixed with bleeding the rears, which is why opening the bleeder and pumping the pedal hard works so well, even in new lines and new master I will get flecks in the fluid from somewhere.

and I know you know this, but for other readers remember the FRONT bore (closest to the grille) is the REAR brakes on an S10 master, and most GM masters of the era, and the REAR bore (closest to the firewall) is the FRONT brakes. I had a guy with soft pedal listen to this fact and tell me the front was the front because the line size was bigger....

[dsraven]

not positive but I think all the S10's had low drag brake calipers so they would have had the step bore master cylinders. if you bench bleed the master cylinder before installing on the truck it will be a quicker operation. have you installed the master, attempted to bleed it and think you may have air in the system? did you take the abs system along for the ride? if so, the abs system may have air in it and will require the abs valves to be open in the unit for the bleeding to done. that requires a scan tool I believe.
here is a link on a quick way to bench bleed a step bore. you need a syringe.
https://www.buyautoparts.com/blog/ho...ster-cylinder/

[Father&son56project]

Joedoh:

I used the tube in the jar method on all wheels, and also gave it a shot using a vacuum pump, but the problem persisted. After bleeding the system numerous times, there were absolutely no bubbles coming out but the pedal problem persisted. There are no leaks and I am not losing fluid from the reservoir, so this led me to suspect a master that was leaking internally at the seals. Rockauto had a clearout sale and I got a brand new one for under 22 bucks Canadian (about ¼ of what that same unit costs up here!).

Dsraven:

The new master is still sitting here in it’s box. I will definitely bench bleed it first, and based on your comments I suspect that it is in fact a step bore style. The manufacturer was very very clear about using their recommended bench bleeding system for step bore master cylinders (but they don’t bother to tell you what type they are selling you!). They include a video as well that shows the 2 ways to do it (either with a syringe (the fast way) or with a dowel (the slow way). I deleted the ABS (so no hidden bubbles there), but everything else is stock 1996 S10, including the routing of all lines.

I will post the results when I’m done. Thanks for the quick replies!

[dsraven]

a pedal that, when applied and held with equal pressure continued, slowly goes to the floor with no external leaks indicates an internal leak in the mastee cyl. good job diagnosing.

[Father&son56project]

Well, the brake situation is no better (and possibly a bit worse!). I replaced the master cylinder with a new one, and I followed the bench bleeding instructions very carefully. I also installed 2 new rear wheel cylinders as the old ones required way too much force on the bleeder screws to get them to properly seal. I bled the system again, and with the engine off the brake pedal is rock hard. Once I start the engine however, the pedal is mushy and sinks pretty much all the way down. With the old master cylinder I initially had a fairly firm pedal that sank slowly. With the new master I now have a mushy pedal that sinks fairly quickly. I was very careful with the bleeding process, following the correct order and opening the bleeders just enough to allow fluid escape, but not so far as to allow air past the threads.

There is however one weird thing going on. At the end of the combination valve there is a small rod that comes out and moves towards the firewall when firm pressure is applied to the brakes with the engine running. Here are 2 pics. The first shows where that rod is, and the 2nd shows the direction it goes under firm brake pressure (the direction I am pointing with my finger).











If anyone has a good diagnosis of my issue, I’d welcome it! No offence to all the well meaning members, but no wild guesses please. I’m at my wit’s end chasing down this mushy pedal.

Thanks!

[dsraven]

I use a bleeder like the lisle tool I got from princess auto. I use a nylon cable tie to ensure the hoses stay put and then place a longer section of clear urethane hose on the inlet and outlet, with the cable ties in place, on each hose so that the little bottle can become overfull and the fluid will simply drain down the extra hose instead of spray straight up out of the exit hole. you can buy different colored urethane hose, which is way more flexible than the vinyl hose that comes with, so you will easily know which hose is the inlet and outlet at a glance. I 1/2 fill the bottle, place that whole thing into an old coffee can so any spills or overflow will be contained. it is cheap, clean and works well for bleeding by yourself. when done, spill out the overflow, put the lid on the can and it is easy to store so dust and dirt stay out. I do enough brakes, usually, so I don't worry about draining, cleaning everything out etc but if you are just doing a single vehicle then it is good to clean it all up with brake clean and put it away.

[dsraven]

https://www.princessauto.com/en/brak...t/PA0002991081

you couls easily build one with an old pop bottle that would do the same thing. use hose that fits tightly over your bleeder screws heads. don't back the bleeder screws out too far or they will become air leakers through the threads of the screws.

[dsraven]

you can usually get a large bore syringe from a farm supply store or a feed supply outlet.

[dsraven]

The combi valve has an automatic cut off in the case that one circuit of the brakes blows out and you have a major leak. You will likely need to center that internal valve located where the electrical part is. There is a tool used to keep the valve centered when you bleed the brakes otherwise the valve moves and closes one circuit. Google how the combination valve works and how to reset it, then try your brakes again

[dsraven]

It may be called a proportioning valve, combination valve or something else but either way there are a few good YouTube's on the subject. A few explain how they work. It is important to have the master cyl outlets plumbed correctly as well. Joedoh would be a good source for that or you could check an S10 at the wrecker or similar idea.

[dsraven]

One other thing to check, maybe you have already, is to ensure the pushrod from the booster to master has a little Freeplay so the master piston is allowed to fully retract. It would mean pulling the master away from the booster enough to do the pushrod length from the master mounting surface on the booster and likewise checking the depth of the depression in the master piston where the pushrod "pushes". Then compare the two. Should be a little play there.

[dsraven]

have you checked the booster for a vacuum leak or possibly a bad vacuum check valve at the booster?
pull the check valve out of the booster, disconnect the vacuum line and do a test to ensure it allows vacuum to flow one way and absolutely nothing goes back the other way
assemble the valve back to the booster like it was. now do a vacuum test on the booster to see if it holds a vacuum. simply apply a vacuum to the check valve and monitor to see if it drops in vacuum and listen for any air leaks at the inside of the truck around the booster pushrod, also around the grommet for the check valve.
question, engine idling, apply the brakes. does the engine rpm change at all? like it had a sudden vacuum leak to make up for?
is the pushrod from the pedal set up with some freeplay so as not to apply a slight pressure to the booster pushrod which would unseat the internal valve and "leak" vacuum?
maybe google how a vacuum brake booster operates for a little more theory on what could go wrong

[Father&son56project]

Dsraven:

Thanks for the suggestions! I ordered one of those tools to lock the rod in place during bleeding (but it’s a 10 day delivery). My combination valve appears to be the self centering type. As soon as you let off the brake, the rod returns to its normal position by itself. I tested the sending unit without any force on the brake pedal and there was no continuity (in other words the valve had self-centered and didn't activate the brake warning light).

As for the lines, my system is correct, and the lines follow the same paths as a stock ‘96 S10 does (It’s simply an S10 surrounded by an old body. It even has the S10 brake pedal assembly in it). The only difference is the ABS delete.

I have not yet checked the gap in the rod that sits between the booster and the master cylinder, but the booster/master combo was working when I bought the S10 and I had kept the pair bolted together when I disassembled the S10 so there shouldn’t be an issue there (but it’s not a difficult thing to check).

My engine idle does not change at all when the brakes are applied, and there are no obvious vacuum leaks (but I ran out of time and didn’t get to properly checking the booster and valve for a leak). I did however do some googling this eve, but what I found suggests that a vacuum leak in the booster would result in a hard pedal (my problem is the opposite). I will check it as you suggested anyhow, just to be safe.

The feeling I get when I press on the pedal is what you would expect if there was some air in the system. Given the lengths I have gone through to bleed this system, that pedal should be rock hard.

The saga continues!