25$ paintjob?

[Mike 85]

The "thing" about leaving in primer,even 2K type,is contamination.Even inside in the shop or garage,it will pick up "whatever" happens to land on it be it WD-40 to simple moisture which WILL come back out later. No amount of cleaning or sanding,which will only grind the contaminate IN more, will remove it.
Epoxy is your only "real" answer. A cheap touch up gun can work fine for doing most any spraying.Might take awhile for a hood or such but those "little" guns will surprise you what all you can do.At least you got something "good" on for the time being and all you need is a quick sand with 180 and when you get a full size gun,recoat it and get on with it.
You can pick up a gallon kit of Southern Polyurethanes epoxy for less than $200 which gives you 2 gallons sprayable which will cover a LOT.Or, Get a qt. kit for less than $60 and have a half gallon sprayable.Their epoxy will last for years sealed up.I know,I have some 3 years old I still use out of. Once you mix it,you have a 24 hr. pot life and if you need more,just mix fresh and add to the old and you got another 24 hr.
Just don't expect "primer" to protect much.

[carpainter]

There is another option and I'm sure there are opinions on this. I haven't used it myself but there is roll-on primer surfacer available now. I believe it is a 2K primer for use over repairs. If you are planning on leaving it in primer I suggest using epoxy although it won't fill. I don't like leaving anything in primer myself because of the contamination issue but sometimes "you gotta do what you gotta do".

[vintagesteel]

Originally Posted by carpainter

There is another option and I'm sure there are opinions on this. I haven't used it myself but there is roll-on primer surfacer available now. I believe it is a 2K primer for use over repairs. If you are planning on leaving it in primer I suggest using epoxy although it won't fill. I don't like leaving anything in primer myself because of the contamination issue but sometimes "you gotta do what you gotta do".

I think TRANSTAR is the one who makes the roll on primer. But I didn't want to say it! The epoxy I've shot filled just like 2k.

[carpainter]

Originally Posted by vintagesteel

I think TRANSTAR is the one who makes the roll on primer. But I didn't want to say it! The epoxy I've shot filled just like 2k.

Yeah, I've heard other guys on here talk about their epoxy filling sand scratches and other minor imperfections. The only epoxy I've used is PPG's lower grade Shopline brand. It works great, isn't expensive but doesn't fill very well.

[my67chevytruck]

Originally Posted by Richard8971

My advice, find a cheap spray gun and decent little compressor and spend just a little more for better paint supplies. You will thank me later.

Don

I agree with Don, I have a buddy that owns a paint/body shop but dont like beating him down too much, I asked Don a couple of questions, and his replies have gone a long way. I bought a $99.00 3 - piece vapor HVLP setup and i am happy with the results. I use the paint supplier that my buddy uses as he will do the final painting on my sons truck. check out my build thread everything has been painted with the Vapor guns either in SS chassis black. or BC/CC silver. and the Epoxy primer lays out good and thick....

Thanks Guys, keep doing what you do, to help keep us motivated and attempting things that we normally would not!!! Much Appreciated!!!

[Bowtie001]

I want to chime in here as an innocent observer. I followed a bunch of the posts on the mopar site, and I liked the idea, honestly. To a guy without a decent compressor gun or booth, it's a lot cheaper and easier to deal with (especially the booth part) for those of us that don't like farming anything out. The only thing that anyone has yet said in this thread against the rustoleum method is the resistance to UV. OK, I don't know that stuff, and I can buy that. The counterpoint here is that the people on the other boards have posted after years and years with no touch up and cars that never get garaged don't look any worse for wear. How can this be? Also, the marine grade paint is obviously used on boats. Many of these are NEVER out of the sun. If this is true, fading must not be an issue. As far as the elbow grease, I am more than willing to spend 10 hours before I'll spend $50 right now. For others with more comfortable means, or who already own the tools, I can see why you would think it would be ridiculous to spend a hundred hours wetsanding over and over and rolling nonstop, but can you see why fume proofing my garage, buying a big compressor and a gun (or two) and hardener and paint is a little more involved? OK, I know you are all reasonable and can see what I am saying so far, it's easier to spend time than money. The question the OP asked is, why not? The only real answer I have read is that the sun fades it and it doesn't contain a hardener. OK, well enamel never really hardens whether sprayed or rolled, and lots of people (some in this thread) have witnessed rocks and nails and other objects NOT scratching or gouging the paint. So what gives? You say it's black, they say it's white. Understand why we still want proof? Rumor on the other board is that they still roll enamel on boats like this (or spray it on sometimes), if it's good enough for a boat, why not a car? Certainly boats are typically more pricey, and have to last longer than most peoples cars.

Have I asked enough questions yet?

-Brian

[Mike 85]

Actually,
We just LOVE the SMELL of URETHANE.
Rustoleum (enamel) STINKS.

It's your ride,paint it with Dutch Boy for all we care.OR, Glue FUR all over it.Seen that done before too.Maybe some Indoor/Outdoor carpet.
Aluminum foil is nice as well.

[Shane]

If it was as good & durable as all the folks trying to save a dime say, then all the major automakers would be using it as OEM topcoat. After working in the automotive supply chain for over 5 years, believe me when I tell you they WILL do anything and everything possible to save a dime.

No one here is arguing intentionally, only attempting to give sound advice. Look at who is saying what and then make up your mind. The guys that squirt paint for a living (and some as a hobby) are telling guys NOT to do it. The ones that are telling folks to go for it typically have never painted anything automotive and couldn't tell the difference between a sheet of 400 grit and a sheet of note book paper. I realize that sounds harsh, but it's the truth.

[Richard8971]

Originally Posted by Shane

No one here is arguing intentionally, only attempting to give sound advice. Look at who is saying what and then make up your mind.

Thank you Shane, I couldn't have said it better. I think what Mike85 is trying to say is that in the end, it is your vehicle.

It isn't really up to any of us to tell others what to do with their own cars. The only thing I can hope is that maybe someone can avoid the mistakes I have made painting by following some of the advice that is mentioned in here.

OK, you can use Rustoleum. You can, really. Personally, based on my knowledge of paint and paint supplies, it will never be seen in my shop or used on anything I own. I just prefer that the money I work so hard to make, lasts me the longest by using quality materials.

Don

[vintagesteel]

Originally Posted by Bowtie001

I want to chime in here as an innocent observer. I followed a bunch of the posts on the mopar site, and I liked the idea, honestly. To a guy without a decent compressor gun or booth, it's a lot cheaper and easier to deal with (especially the booth part) for those of us that don't like farming anything out. The only thing that anyone has yet said in this thread against the rustoleum method is the resistance to UV. OK, I don't know that stuff, and I can buy that. The counterpoint here is that the people on the other boards have posted after years and years with no touch up and cars that never get garaged don't look any worse for wear. How can this be? Also, the marine grade paint is obviously used on boats. Many of these are NEVER out of the sun. If this is true, fading must not be an issue. As far as the elbow grease, I am more than willing to spend 10 hours before I'll spend $50 right now. For others with more comfortable means, or who already own the tools, I can see why you would think it would be ridiculous to spend a hundred hours wetsanding over and over and rolling nonstop, but can you see why fume proofing my garage, buying a big compressor and a gun (or two) and hardener and paint is a little more involved? OK, I know you are all reasonable and can see what I am saying so far, it's easier to spend time than money. The question the OP asked is, why not? The only real answer I have read is that the sun fades it and it doesn't contain a hardener. OK, well enamel never really hardens whether sprayed or rolled, and lots of people (some in this thread) have witnessed rocks and nails and other objects NOT scratching or gouging the paint. So what gives? You say it's black, they say it's white. Understand why we still want proof? Rumor on the other board is that they still roll enamel on boats like this (or spray it on sometimes), if it's good enough for a boat, why not a car? Certainly boats are typically more pricey, and have to last longer than most peoples cars.

Have I asked enough questions yet?

-Brian

Boats are NOT painted from the factory. They are gelcoated. The reason people paint boats is because they dont want to spend the money to do it right! SEEMS LIKE A PATTERN. Funny thing about a boat. When it needs to be repaired, and repaired right, all that paint has to come off. Because like urethane paint, gelcoat WILL lift every bit of that crap paint off of the boat. Now the repair will cost you 3 times as much because ALL of the old CRAP has to come off. Scratch the paint put on a boat and if there is body filler underneath it will absorb water and delaminate from the boat.GUARANTEED!

[vintagesteel]

oh yeah, how do you post small quotes and not the WHOLE FREAKIN THING??

[Mike 85]

how do you post small quotes

Just highlite what text you want by putting the curser at the beginning of what you want to quote,left click and hold the button and drag it over what you want and it will "highlite" this,Right click and pick Copy. In your reply,use the Quote button at the top of the box,click it and Paste as usuall.

[Bowtie001]

Apologies to the OP if I am hijacking, but I think I am asking the same questions he is asking...

No offense, but I have a hard time believing people just on the basis of what they do for a living, or who they are. I tend to be a 'show me' kinda guy. That's why I hate farming things out and would never consider a maaco or whatever paint job. In this case, the "show me" is unattainable because I can't paint two cars two different ways and drive them for ten years to compare. Thus the question is asked, and still has yet to be honestly answered (with the exception of the UV resistance), what are the downsides? I know it isn't 'right' in classic terms, but what makes it not right? What objective charecteristics, other than UV protection, does this painting method [I]not[I] offer?

Old cars were lacquer, and nobody uses lacquer anymore, older cars were enamel, and nobody uses enamel anymore. I used to work for a tier 1 OEM supplier, and have had my tours of paint shops within OEM plants. I can honestly say that they save a buck by doing things faster, not be changing materials. If they can paint a car in 10 seconds less, they'll gladly pay double the material cost for it. It's been discussed that one of the huge downsides to the enamel method is that it's crazy labor intensive and that it takes forever to dry when compared to a traditional OEM paint.

I am not looking for validation (and I don't think the OP is either), and not a "it's your car, do what you want" response. I am looking for objective measurable things that make this painting method inferior to a spray on automotive type paint. Here is what I have so far:
Enamel:
Pros
Easy
Forgiving
Cheap
No booth needed
Cons
Time consuming
UV resistance
Won't ever be much better than typical OEM quality
Hated by the general 67-72 truck community

Urethane/BCCC
Pros
Good quality a possibility
Good UV resistance
Support from the 67-72 truck community
Cons
Requires compressor
Requires booth
Requires spray gun
More expensive materials
Less forgiving for mistakes or dust
Harder to master for newbie


Anything else?

-Brian

[rayce08]

i showed the pics of the topside painted cowl , i have had my z28 painted at a very well known shop for over 5k , and i know the difference between 400 grit and notebook paper , paper has more lines , lol .

i think the whole point of the roll on method is not having a gun , compressor big enough which is importent , and a booth . if youve got the money do what u want , the paint will only look as good as the prep , no matter how u put it on ! i got great results from the roll on methed , i have friends in the paint world who were also amazed at how it turned out , i think that this method has been refined enough and the materials avalible are good enough now days to get results on par with spraying , now the time issue is another thing , but i dont charge myself for labor .

[Shane]

Bowtie, you start your post off with "I'm a show me kind of guy" then you finish up with "I'm not looking for validation."

So what exactly ARE you looking for?

You are fooling no one but yourself if you truly believe that OEM's would not switch to a lower cost coating if they believed it could save them a penny. It takes no longer to apply enamel than it does any other liquid coating.

Nothing anyone posts here you seems to support your opinion, so you continue to ask the same questions only stated in a different context. It seems you already have your opinion formed and by continuing to ask the same questions over & over and then ignoring the given answers smells of trolling. Especially when you use broad statement such as this that have NOTHING to do with the actual facts of the matter to support your debate.

Hated by the general 67-72 truck community

Support from the 67-72 truck community

With that being said, this post is dangerously close to being shut down due to the argumentative nature.

[Mike 85]

I think Rustoleum should have their own forum so these "roller painters" will have a place to go and "discuss" their procedures and techniques.
These type threads ALWAYS go on forever and go NO PLACE.
People who use automotive paint products understand,those who don't will be at the whims of whoever says what and then there are ALWAYS the penny pinchers wanting something for nothing and expecting the BEST.
Then,There are people who just like to start sheet.
I keep telling myself to stay out of these type postings and there are some up right now I have resolved to stay out of but their like car wrecks,
Just can't help but look.
I'm done.
Roll on!!!!!


p.s.
Anyone remember the last time you "tried" to blend an enamel job?

[shovelhead]

I watched/helped a friend go through this issue with his '59 Apache. Although we have air compressors, paint guns and even a place to paint, he had never sprayed anything that required this fine of a finish. After reading ALL of the mopar forum thread & the Hot Rod article, he wanted to try the Rustoleum. He had the bodywork completed on his truck bed & fenders and that is where we began. The roller method was quickly abandoned, as it took too much elbow grease to wet sand. We then sprayed the Rustoleum, and although it initially looked good, it never hardened enough (to suit me anyway) and it will NOT buff out to a suitable gloss. This was a lot of work reach the conclusion that it would never look good enough. After all of the hours of bodywork, it just does not pay to scrimp on paint.
I have seen the good results on the Mopar forum and others, but after ALL that work, I'm gonna spend the money on automotive paint.

[Bowtie001]

Shane,
I don't know how I could be more clear, I want (and I think the OP wanted) a clear list of reasons why this is not a good idea other than those I have listed.

Now as to your other messages, I have listed a clear set of pros and cons as I understand them and would like other to add or subtract as necessary.

This thread, as you said, is full of people who think it's a dumb idea, but other than the time involved, we've only seen one actual reason collectively why this wouldn't work. I simply want to know if there are others, what they are, and if there was any way around them.

I don't have my mind made up at all, but I am extremely skeptical if everyone thinks something is stupid but nobody can tell me why.

I think you misunderstood what I said about OEMs, of course they would switch to this if it was cheaper, but it's not cheaper for them because of the time involved. Like others here, I don't charge myself labor, and GM does. GM wants to paint their cars in as little time as possible, materials and tools simply don't matter that much to them.

And yeah man, I thought the community opinion thing was kinda funny.


Shovelehead - how glossy was unacceptable? I have heard from the other forums that this is comparable to a good lacquer shine, but not to expect much more. Certainly not a BC/CC see yourself in it type shine. How far from this were you guys?

Mike, I certainly don't want something for nothing, as there is a good deal of work involved with either method. I simply have way more time than money (even with a new kid in the house) and would have a difficult time converting my garage into a spray booth. Honestly, I am thinking of both, and trying to make an educated decision. Educate! I also certainly understand that this won't be on par with a top notch quality paint job. I also understand that if I spring for a big new compressor, dryer, guns and good paint and primer, that it still won't look like a quality paint job because I am likely a complete moron and will have to do it three or four times before I am happy with it. I am certain that each method will leave different things desired. For instance, I can see myself making runs and orange peel with a sprayer and not knowing how to fix them. I can also see myself making not-glossy-enough paint that may not be as consistent with the roller.

rayce08, Do you have any pictures of the finished product? How long has it been, where was it stored, and what does it look like now? Longevitiy is the thing that concerns me most.

-Brian

[vintagesteel]

you say longivity is what concerns you the most. Have you ever seen lawn furniture look good after a few years! You say you would never consider a Maaco paint job. Why? can't afford it or not good enough?( not being a dick, but your answer will tell us everything we need to know). Your pros and cons are way off. You classify either enamel (which rustoleum is, but NOT automoitve enamel, 2 COMPLETELY different things) and BC/CC. You have more options than that. First automotive enamel is sprayed. You dont have to have a "booth" to paint. It is optimal, but NOT nessessary. your cons about enamel is "won't be much better than typical OEM quality" Rustoleum can't even be compared to OEM quality.
Your cons for bc/cc, "harder for a newby and less forgiving for mistakes and dust" is just the opposite. Especially metallic colors. You can't wet sand and polish a single stage metallic(goes for any type of paint) and get the glass smooth finish with out effecting the metalics.
Rustoleum, just like shovelhead said, doesn't dry hard. try sanding said lawn furniture 3 years later. STILL gums up the paper. You also will NEVER have the gloss of a quality automotive paint that has been sanded and polished.
I don't have the scientific data you want that rustoleum is inferior to automotive paint. I just KNOW. Buy some rustoleum, paint something and dicide for your self. If YOU are satisfied with the outcome then go for it.
Sorry for jumping around. My A.D.D is bad today! Need to take my meds.

[Bowtie001]

OK, I will try to answer those, vintage.

I won't go to Maaco because I insist upon doing everything myself - to a fault. I want to at least know that it's routine enough that I don't have to correct others mistakes. An example of this is putting tires on wheels - I have done it manually, once, and now it's ok to let whoever do it for me. I don't suspect painting will be like that as it obviously entails a lot more skill and variables.

Sorry my list was way off, but that's why I put it out there, I want corrections. I can be wrong, that's fine. As long as I can understand why I am fine.

I can try, as you suggested, painting something else and giving it a shot, but I can't sit it outside and wait ten years. I certainly can't buy a compressor and everything and do the same to an identical piece to compare after ten years - I just don't have the time for a correct controlled experiment. Lots of the other people on the rolling forums have commented that the finished product is very close to OEM quality (hot rod included), and that's fine for me. What I don't have is a longevity measurement.

I think I mis-spoke when I said my biggest concern is longevity, what I meant is that my biggest worry about using the roll on enamel is the longevity.

What I meant by that con about being less forgiving is that if I get a run, I need to sand it off and paint that area and blend it again, same for a stray bug or anything else. Since there are so many coats with the enamel rolling, and each one is wet sanded between, those things become non issues (or so we are lead to believe by the people who have done this).

The reason I specified a booth is because the garage is attached to my house, so fumes are a huge problem for my wife and son. It's either I plastic off the whole garage or use water based paint.

So the cons now for the roll on method are:
Time
UV
Longevity
Quality compared to a good BC/CC job

So answer me this for comparison sake, since I am completely in the dark (really), what size (capacity, airflow, pressure) compressor is needed to spray a water based paint? What gun(s) would be a good beginners target? What paint offers a good mix of economy and looks? Price is a huge deal. If I want to make it to Lemons this year, I am going to have to account for all of this scratch. I understand that tools are investments, but the greatest investment in the world is worthless if you don't have the entry fee. If I can get those basics, I can check prices on used stuff and see what the real cost difference is. Right now I am guessing $200 for a used compressor (I can borrow a great dryer from work), $200 for guns, $200 for paint. I really have no clue.

I understand that metallics and candys are harder, and if I were to spray, they would not be on my list at all. I love pearl too, but there is no way my first paint job is going to be ready for that.

I don't understand the lawn furniture analogy, all of mine is wrought iron or plastic. I have never seen anything painted in enamel at all up close.

I also understand that I was only considering BC/CC against roll on enamel, but that's all that I know right now. I suppose a urethane would be a good comparison as well, but the pros and cons list was really meant for all spray on paints, sorry for the mislabelling.

-Brian

[vintagesteel]

I can't speak for the water based paints because all I've sprayed is Auto Air. Waterbased isn't going to help you though because they do not make water based clear. It is all solvent based. Water based also has to have major air flow, thats what makes it dry. As far equipment, the same equipment that is used to spray solvent based is used in water based. Other than paint guns. They have to have stainless needles, which they will tell you waterbased compatible(someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Like I said I don't have much experience with water based because i don't have too! Someone else with more experience will chime in.
I know its probably too late, but you need to relax on the "control" thing. You have to trust people. I dont know anybody who can/will paint something then wait 10 years to see if it held up before painting there car. By that time, new technology has passed you by. Thats why OEMs don't use lacquer and enamel anymore.

[Bowtie001]

Vintage,
but a single stage doesn't need a clear, right? So a single stage water based could work?

If I used conventional, what would you recommend with a heavy side towards economy for all of the things I mentioned?

I am an engineer, I have to know how things work before I use them, otherwise there is too much voodoo for my taste. I owed a car for six months before I could drive for just that purpose...

If I am concerned about longevity, I don't know how to test other than to let it sit. We have used test labs to simulate such things quickly, but a 30K bill to use them is a bit out of line for this particular thing.

Thanks
-Brian

[LONGHAIR]

Arguing with a Moderator will get you nowhere....


Lets all relax a little and really asses things. Too many things are being thrown out there as "facts"....many of which are not as factual as they were stated to be.
There seems to be a lot of apple/orange comparison and "blanket statements" that are bound to start stuff.



Besides, who said that lacquer won't shine? It may not last as long as the modern stuff....but it can be brought up to an amazing shine.

[Mike 85]

Ok 1 LAST time.
WaterBOURN paints HAVE to be HEAT DRIED in order to ADHERE properly.
Air drying is OUT of the question unless you want COMPLETE failure.
READ the TECH SHEETS on ANY waterbourn paints and you WILL see they HAVE to be HEAT SET.
You got a bake booth or UV lamps to do this with?
I thinka not.
MAIN reason waterbourn paints are lagging in popularity.
What the hell is SO "green" about that?
Sure,You have LESS VOC's to emit BUT, How much ENERGY are you USING to DRY this crap out?????
Looks like a "wash" to me......
Happy New Year and Peace Out.


"Green", my ASS......Biggest bunch of B.S. I've had blown up mine since ISO's KILL!!!

[Richard8971]

Originally Posted by Slowlearn

Dang Shane, chill man! Guy is just asking questions and looking for answers. Who know what his motives are? And who cares? We all learn from the answers.

If you have answers or opinions about the process give them. But don't attack the guys motives and conjure up what you see as his "true meaning"

Good time to invoke the "Thumper Rule," If you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all.

Slowlearn, this thread has already taken a notch or two towards being shut down. I think Shane was just trying to keep it from getting that far.

This is not a question that can be asked without causing feelings to be stirred up. We all have strong opinions about paint and what to use. I have said it before, Shane, Vintagesteel and Mike 85, with myself (and many other on here that actually work with paint for a living) are not hobbyist. We really on the paints we use to make us money so we can provide for our families. So, yeah, we have a thing or two to say about paint, not just one kind.

I can honestly say that I have used almost every automotive paint out there, from the cheap brands to the most expensive, from cheap spray jobs to collision to custom paint. How many here can say they painted a car that sold at the Barret-Jackson Auction for 300K? Or had a DARE Matchbox model made from one of their paint jobs? How about multiple restorations? I can... So yes, I believe I know a thing or two about paint and what to use. I am not trying to cop an attitude here, just making a point. I never stop learning. I ask questions and listen, and then apply what I have learned.

We have said already, if you choose Rustoleum, you can paint your vehicle with it, but don't expect much from the performance end. Several people who have used it have testified to that fact. Like Mike said, if you choose to cover your car in carpet (I have seen that actually, from a carpet dealer here in town, car actually looked pretty cool!) that is your choice.

This subject has been asked more times than I care to admit and always they end like this. People walk away mad, for whatever reason. The problem is not with the OP. Yes you can spray can your truck for about 25 bucks. Problem is, others come in and then ask questions about paint, and what kind, and this and that.... get the idea? We have only jumped in to answer questions regarding types of paint and their quality and what you can expect from putting 25 dollar paint on your car.

I'm sure it won't end here.... have a good one guys!

Don