Make it handle

[scottofksu]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Looks like a pretty solid plan. I recomend our new C-10 sway bar over the Helwigs, especially in the rear. There front is comparable to ours. (ours is 1 1/4) You really need a panhard rod that allows you to adjust the Roll Center. Ours, or Hotchkis. If you have 400+ fl./lb. of torque avail, you dont need the 3.28 first gear, stay with the 2.87. That is a fairly good shock. - but you may want to consider relocating the rear mounts. Our shock mount kit realy does make a difference, better money spent there. When will you be starting.

Thanks for your reply, Rob! I definitely will be buying any of this stuff that you have over anyone else! After all, EVERYTHING I know about suspension tuning I've learned from this thread or through it's inspiring me to read further. I hope everyone is supporting you for your kind assistance to us!

I have the front end off now and am going to be starting up there first. My first step, when the weather improves for even a day, is to head to you pull it and aquire a set of 72-87 A-arms and steering components. I figure that will be a good time to get a set of your drop spindles. Once I get those installed, along with disc brakes, I'll be calling for the front sway bar. You don't sell the steering boxes do you? I'd rather buy it from you if possible... You ever consider making your own handling kits?

Thanks again!
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[Grimee]

scottofksu
I would reconsider the tire choice I have them on my Tahoe roght now and they are 540 tread ware not great for getting around corners .I had to take my R compound tires off to run the Optima Challenge and ended up with the continentals and it was a little squirley .For my money I would listen to Rob knows his stuff and builds quality parts that do what they are supposed to do! THEY WORK!

[robnolimit]

scottofksu and kurt, thanks for the confidence. I don't sell the boxes. And, as for 'handling kits' we are working on more parts, but i think we are going to keep the items seporate. So many C-10 guys already have some parts, our goal is to have the parts they need, that can still allow them to use what they have. The '63-'72+ market is WAY different than our '40's-'50's customer. You need to address Caster. A)-Modify the OE arms, or B) buy aftermarket lowers that help out there. As for tires, I'm with Kurt. The 500+ tw is not going to inspire you, or keep you confident. I am going back to the Goodrich KDW, 300 tw (tests at 260), good driver feedback, lots of confidence. The Nitto, Bridgestone, Kumho, and Falken are all good, (180 to 220 tw) but not too long lasting.

[scottofksu]

Rob, I can definitely see your point (regarding kits and the market). My choice for tires was based solely on my "All Season" experience with this tire (I have them on my VW Jetta and feel they are the best tire I've ever owned as far as being decent at all things). I would definitely go with something stickier for track days and perhaps for summer driving. I must confess that I do have some interest in occasionally vintage racing the truck as I've been semi involved in vintage racing in the MG/Austin scene. I too agree on the Caster comment (that is, I need to gain some). Can you recommend/do you sell a suitable lower A-Arm? Is it ok to use an aftermarket lower and stock upper?

[hairlesshobo]

First off, this thread is absolutely awesome. I have learned so much just reading through this. I already have a whole new understanding of how a suspension works just from all of the great advice that has been given. Much appreciation to everyone here, especially Rob.

I have a lot of questions but I will hold off on them until I finish reading the entire thread. I have been reading for 3 days and I am only on page 18.

I do, however, have one simple question that I want to go ahead and ask. I've been reading on here that people are speaking of the "factory front sway bar" on a C10, even as far back as the 60s or 70s models (or whenever they were first included). The question, did a front sway bar come factory on all C10s since they were first released?

The reason I ask is because I have an 84 SWB C10, and to my amazement, there is NO sway bar on the truck, front or rear. I have triple checked just to make sure that I am not over looking it, but I see no sway bar, no end links, nothing. All I have is my springs, shocks, control arm, upper arm, etc. Am I going nuts or did some of these trucks (even the "later" model 84) not have one?

[scottofksu]

Originally Posted by hairlesshobo

I do, however, have one simple question that I want to go ahead and ask. I've been reading on here that people are speaking of the "factory front sway bar" on a C10, even as far back as the 60s or 70s models (or whenever they were first included). The question, did a front sway bar come factory on all C10s since they were first released?

The reason I ask is because I have an 84 SWB C10, and to my amazement, there is NO sway bar on the truck, front or rear. I have triple checked just to make sure that I am not over looking it, but I see no sway bar, no end links, nothing. All I have is my springs, shocks, control arm, upper arm, etc. Am I going nuts or did some of these trucks (even the "later" model 84) not have one?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it has always been my understanding that sway bars are typically an option on 2wd trucks. In my experience it is an under utilized option...

[robnolimit]

I don't know what the real numbers were, but only about 1/2 of the 63 - 87's we see have a front bar.

[hairlesshobo]

OK so then it is most likely that the truck didn't come with one. I was just wondering if it had one at some point and the original owner decided it would be a "smart" idea to take it off. I have found so many things that the original owner though was "smart" so I wasn't sure if this was one or not.

Thanks for the quick replies!

[Hotchkis]

Originally Posted by scottofksu

I must have read this thread a hundred times now and finally have a plan and some ideas. However, I also have questions... Let me start with my plan, by the way, this is for a 65 Chevy C-10 (383, 5-speed).

Plan:
1 1/8" Sway Bars Front and Rear -
Helwig from Summit (HEL-7423 - $206.69; HEL-7401 - $270.99)

3" Drop Front - 2" from drop spindle; 1" from shorter springs
4" Drop Rear - 2" from lowering block; 2" from shorter springs

30" Adjustable Panhard Bar

KYB GR2/Excel-G Shocks

AGR Performance SB2 Steering Box #204317 - $339.95 (Summit)

Relocate front end weight rearward – Battery & gas tank.

Partial Belly Pan and aero design to reduce front end lift at speed.

18X9 Wheels & 295/35ZR18 Continental Extreme Contact DWS Tires

Goals: 1) To make the truck handle as good as possible so as to support my spirited driving style. 2) To allow for the safe transition of nearly 350 rear wheel lb/ft at idle (1200 RPM) to acceleration.

Questions:
1) Are my plans complete and acceptable?
2) Are the stock mounts appropriate for the adjustable panhard bar or do new ones need to be fabricated?
3) Which would be a better 1st gear for this transition 2.87:1 or 3.28:1?
4) Are the shocks I selected adequate for the price (About $60/shock) or would spending a little more result in substantial improvements?

Thanks!!

Scottofksu - A couple things worth mentioning. First, you should check out our sway bars, and as Rob said an adjustable panhard would help. If sitting low is your only goal, than spindles and springs will work. If you want the truck to handle, you should also “fix” some of the trucks inherent geometry issues. Also – if you're spending money on the chassis, he should really run a better shock than a KYB, those things are basically useless in a performance setting. Our Bilstein shocks are quite good, and reasonably priced, and we sell a bracket to space them out so they have full travel on a lowered truck.

[hairlesshobo]

Woohoo! I finally made it through all 40 pages of this thread. It only took me all week to read. Great info everyone, I can't thank you all enough. Rob, you seriously are the man for taking so much time to help us out just because you can. Many props to everyone for the amazing things that you have made our "tractors with windows" be able to do lol.

Anyways, I am going to be slowly working on improving the handling of my 84 swb C10 over time. Right now the poor thing has a lot of miles and what looks to be factory parts on everything suspension related. I am planning to improve things in stages due to lack of time and money. The first stage I will be working on it replacing the factory parts that are so wore out that tuning is impossible. For example, the inner/outer TREs are all wore out, the lower and upper joints are very wore out, etc.

In this situation, I would normally head to my buddy at NAPA and just get replacement parts for cheap and throw them on there. Since they have to be replaced anyways, is there a lot to gain from buying aftermarket performance replacement parts for the TRE and Ball joints or is OEM fine? I would assume that TRE is more important than ball joint in this regard. I would rather pay a little more if necessary and do it right the first time. If aftermarket is the way to go, could some people point out which would be ideal.

I will likely install 1"-2" drop spindles in the future to lower the CG and I plan to move my LCA forward 1" to help correct the factory geometry and attain a higher caster. Since I will be moving it that inch, would I need any sort of special ball joints? I've read that doing this actually improves the bumpsteer problem caused by the TRE height from the factory.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

ps. In case anyone is interested to look at the condition of the current suspension, feel free to check out the below link:

https://www.stevecross.org/gallery/i...C10/Suspension

[Mike Bradbury]

I have a question on frame twisting and the effects of it. I am converting from a th400 to a 700r4 and bought the Chevy truck specific cross member from Bow tie. It seems to me that the cross member that I bought is more of a transmission support and will do nothing to limit frame twisting. The original cross member looked as though it served two purposes, two support the tranny and limit the twist. So basically between the main front cross member and the trailing arm cross member there is nothing except the tranny support.
Questions; Should I install another cross member behind the bow tie one? What is the handling effects of twisting frame?

[robnolimit]

As far as the rebuild, NAPA is fine, but get premium replacement parts. TRW or MOOG is a good bet. Step at a time is a reasonable aproach, just be sure to plan it out so that you don't backtrack. (that costs more $$) For the rear of your square body, look into a dropped front spring mount and a long shackle to get a 4" drop. Then swaybar and shocks. Make sure the swaybar can mount 'under' the axle, so that you don't loose any travel. Keep us posted on your progress.

[hairlesshobo]

I've been meaning to ask about the rear drop. Is a 4" drop able to be done without having to notch the frame?

Also, can anyone recommend a good place to look for the drop mount and shackle? This is my first rodio with suspension and I want to make sure to put quality parts on it the first time so I don't end up wasting money.

On a side note, in case I don't make it back on here in the next two days, Merry Christmas everyone!!
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[oldblue1968chevy]

So for handling is it better to lower the rear of a 60-72 with coil springs or blocks?

Whats everyone doing for a rear sway bar on coil spring reareneds? And is the hotchkis swaybar an upgrade from the 3/4 ton swaybar I have now?

Cool thread guys

[jayman68]

Originally Posted by oldblue1968chevy

So for handling is it better to lower the rear of a 60-72 with coil springs or blocks?

Whats everyone doing for a rear sway bar on coil spring reareneds? And is the hotchkis swaybar an upgrade from the 3/4 ton swaybar I have now?

Cool thread guys

I read it on here but couldn't find it, it might have been one of his other threads (he has alot). Rob said blocks first, then springs for more lowering.

[oldblue1968chevy]

Okay, cool cuase thats what I thought too.

Whatta bout swaybars..

[jayman68]

Originally Posted by oldblue1968chevy

Okay, cool cuase thats what I thought too.

Whatta bout swaybars..

This is robs rear swaybar;

http://www.nolimitparts.com/products.asp?dept=1013

On pg 16 of this thread, post 385 they talk 1 1/4 front 1 1/8 rear dia. to start

I also found the post about the blocks, it's in the rear shock mount relocator thread;

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=477839&page=3

it's post 54.

[duallyjams]

Rob I read that you are testing a bunch of different control arms for there caster adjustment. I have read a lot of threads where people are using 73- 87 control arms do these provide any more caster or is it simple just the control arm bushing are the main upgrade in your own opinion.

[robnolimit]

The only difference I see is in the bushing. - But, I haven't really measured the 73-87 stocker against the 63-72 arms. The rubber bushing is a softer ride, but it's bulky, and hangs down a bit lower. I think it depends on your goals as to whether or not it's a good swap.

[Spla'nin]

Thought I would add this link to a series of tech articles over at Longacre I came across...for your reading enjoyment!

I particularly was checking out the "Big Bar Soft Spring Set Up Secrets"... in considring what parts to design around for street/track use...


http://www.longacreracing.com/articl...at.asp?CATID=2

[robnolimit]

Great link. We have been on the 'soft spring - big bar' diet for many years. If you look closely at a lot of the aftermarket, many of them are on the 'stiff spring - big bar' plan, this works too, but so does a piece of piece of pipe instead of a shock. The handling is A+, but the ride suffers a bit.

[hairlesshobo]

OK now that I have decided what steering components I am going to put on the truck, now time to look into suspension upgrades. One annoying problem that I have right now is the front likes to "bounce" for a number of seconds when I hit any bump or apply the brakes quickly. I assume this "bouncing" is actually spring oscillation. On this point, I have a few questions.

1. From what I understand, adding a sway bar (either front or rear) increases the effective spring rate. Or in other words, if I add a sway bar, it will make the truck feel as if the springs are a higher rate than they actually are, right?

2. Assuming that I am correct about #1, will increasing the spring rate make things better or worse in relation to the annoying bouncing.

3. Regardless of the answer to number 2, I assume that investing in high quality shocks would help tremendously with the "bounch" or "repeated dive" in the front end, is this correct? Currently I have sensa-trac shocks on the front and rear that are about a year old. While not the cheapest on the market, by no means the most expensive.

And finally, 4. I've read that cutting a coil off the front spring lowers it AND stiffens the spring. Would cutting a coil off be beneficial. First, the springs have close to 200k miles on them and I assume this makes them very bouncy and wore out. Is it even worth trying to keep the factory springs or do I need to just look into getting new springs as well?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by hairlesshobo

OK now that I have decided what steering components I am going to put on the truck, now time to look into suspension upgrades. One annoying problem that I have right now is the front likes to "bounce" for a number of seconds when I hit any bump or apply the brakes quickly. I assume this "bouncing" is actually spring oscillation. On this point, I have a few questions.

1. From what I understand, adding a sway bar (either front or rear) increases the effective spring rate. Or in other words, if I add a sway bar, it will make the truck feel as if the springs are a higher rate than they actually are, right?

2. Assuming that I am correct about #1, will increasing the spring rate make things better or worse in relation to the annoying bouncing.

3. Regardless of the answer to number 2, I assume that investing in high quality shocks would help tremendously with the "bounch" or "repeated dive" in the front end, is this correct? Currently I have sensa-trac shocks on the front and rear that are about a year old. While not the cheapest on the market, by no means the most expensive.

And finally, 4. I've read that cutting a coil off the front spring lowers it AND stiffens the spring. Would cutting a coil off be beneficial. First, the springs have close to 200k miles on them and I assume this makes them very bouncy and wore out. Is it even worth trying to keep the factory springs or do I need to just look into getting new springs as well?

The springs oscillation is controlled by the shock. If you're bouncing more than 1-revolution/cycle, the shocks are not doing their job & need to be replaced.

Cutting a coil does drop the overall ride height as well as slightly increase the spring rate. It doesn't usually increase the spring rate enough to offset the amount of drop so it can bottom out easier if things are already close (some vehicles might have an issue while another type won't). A specific, known spring rate is the best way to go but cutting a coil is common & effective drop just don't expect much change in the spring rate (10-20% increase).

[robnolimit]

1. Yes, sway bars do increase the effective rate, BUT, only in a corner, and only on the outside spring. Not in a straight line.

2. too hard to tell.

3. Listen to Scoti, spring oscilation is usually a sign of weak shocks.

4. Springs are pretty tough, but, 200k miles will take it's toll. Get some new springs first.

[hairlesshobo]

OK, thanks guys. That perfectly answers my questions. So now my plan is to replace my front spindles (1" drop) and new 2" drop springs, add swaybar to front and rear (likely going to be 1 1/4 front and 1 1/8 rear), and lower my rear 4 - 5" using mounts and shackles. And I am going to invest in some quality shocks, both front and rear... sensa-track just isn't cutting it. One of these days I also hope to convert to a trailing arm coil spring setup and lose the leaf springs, but that's going to be a while yet due to lack of money. Oh, and I need to get around to getting my truck weighed so that I can have an idea of what I'm working with when choosing springs.

ps. Post #1,000... woohoo! lol