'66 Sunbeam Minx Project - F20C/6sp/4-link/Discs...

[Mal]

Originally Posted by
Thanks for the post Mal. It's always interesting to hear from fellow (current or former) Minx owners. It'll be fun when I finally get to park mine next to one. Yours sounds/looks like it could hold its own pretty well. I wonder if the suspension was set higher for NZ..?

Your Tiger project is looking awesome! That is some serious rust repair! Love the steering rack and header work too. I'm a long time Tiger/Alpine fan and have to admit that the Sunbeam name was a draw for me on the Minx. If you really want to track down your old Minx your best bet is probably the Registry maintained by the [URL="http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HillmanCars/"

Hillman Yahoo Group[/URL]. I'll be watching the Tiger build. Cheers!

I think the series V1 have a different front spindle height than the SV.
They are the ones Tiger owners who want to lower their cars love to get.
On my old Minx the tyres are probably a 60 series profile instead of 70 series, also the rear spring shackles were lengthened to raise the rear a little as the rear tyres rubbed a little with people in the back seat.
Thanks for the link to the registry, i will check it out.

Cheers Mal

[Hoffa]

FF, that Beaches at PIR event looks very cool. That might be a fun way to spend a Wednesday this Summer.
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[mcbassin]

Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry

I have played with 023 but I tend to just leave the welder loaded with 030 most of the time.
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I think mine is .035". It's a little on the heavy side if you want to lay it as flat as possible but still get good pentration. I may spool up some .030" on my roll. thanks buddy!

[76C10Stepside]

Thanks for the heads-up on the PIR Beaches cruise-in. Sounds like a blast!
Time to give my truck some much needed attention. Put my foot clean through the bed the other day. Time for a new oak bed, spray-on bedliner, carb and brake work.

[Frizzle Fry]

Originally Posted by Mal

I think the series V1 have a different front spindle height than the SV.
They are the ones Tiger owners who want to lower their cars love to get.
On my old Minx the tyres are probably a 60 series profile instead of 70 series, also the rear spring shackles were lengthened to raise the rear a little as the rear tyres rubbed a little with people in the back seat.
Thanks for the link to the registry, i will check it out.

Cheers Mal

That's right I've read about the spindles. I sold all my suspension/engine to a guy with an earlier Husky.

Originally Posted by Hoffa

FF, that Beaches at PIR event looks very cool. That might be a fun way to spend a Wednesday this Summer.
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Do it!

Originally Posted by mcbassin

I think mine is .035". It's a little on the heavy side if you want to lay it as flat as possible but still get good pentration. I may spool up some .030" on my roll. thanks buddy!

Definitely!

Originally Posted by 76C10Stepside

Thanks for the heads-up on the PIR Beaches cruise-in. Sounds like a blast!
Time to give my truck some much needed attention. Put my foot clean through the bed the other day. Time for a new oak bed, spray-on bedliner, carb and brake work.

I'll be there with one of my rigs ...hopefully this one!

[Frizzle Fry]

Meanwhile back at the ranch...

I put the engine/trans back in for the last-last time I wasn't going to until it's painted but I came to the conclusion that verifying the strut braces clear the engine before welding them up, and fitting the exhaust might not be a bad idea.

So the engine is in again. The big brown truck of gifts dropped this off:

Mine's actually the DBX series. They've been changing the name...

That naturally led me to look at where it's going to fit under the car. Looks like there's a good spot under the rear seat pan.

Of course, in order to determine the precise position the rest of the pipes need to be mocked up; starting with the header.

Over the years I've read engine building and tuning books, including a few by David Vizard. This article sums up the exhaust tuning theory pretty well.

Based on the fact that the collector dimensions are as critical as (and some say more critical than) the primaries, I will attempt to build the exhaust system according to those principles as best as I can.

Doing so will consist of three things:

1. Collector sized correctly for this engine/peak power range
2. A wave termination chamber (to simulate atmosphere)
3. As little restriction as possible past that point (while still quieting it down)

What's a wave termination chamber? It's a chamber/box at least 8x the volume of one cylinder that effectively causes a negative pressure pulse wave to be generated by the change in volume (collector to atm. or collector to wave termination box). The negative pressure wave travels back up the header, and if tuned correctly, will arrive at the exhaust valve at just the right time (per tuned RPM) to scavenge the cylinder and "suck" the next intake charge into the cylinder.

Here's what the chamber might look like:


But before I can terminate the wave, I need the "optimal" collector dimensions. Short of finding that on a dyno, there are some pretty well established constants/factors/relationships (lot's of math and experience) put together into formulas. Bottom line, more than I'd prefer to research and calculate. That's where a good software program pays for itself. I went with Pipemax Header Design Software.

Here's what it spit out for a stock F20C with a street Tri-Y header:
[IMG][/IMG]

So given that I (luckily) already have a 2.5" collector, now I just need to make it ~12.1" long:










More to come...

[VA72C10]

very cool! I wonder how this proper scavenging affects the sound of the exhaust. seems it would entirely transform it since it is so tuned with the exhaust pulses....I'm guessing it would be smoothed out.....

[Frizzle Fry]

Originally Posted by VA72C10

very cool! I wonder how this proper scavenging affects the sound of the exhaust. seems it would entirely transform it since it is so tuned with the exhaust pulses....I'm guessing it would be smoothed out.....

I don't know, but as long as it doesn't sound ricer I'll be happy. Hopefully the single chamber will give it a deeper tone and the DBX will mellow out the higher pitch stuff. Really hoping the single chamber doesn't induce that terrible interior resonance/drone that some systems suffer from... We will see!

[watahyahknow]

the therminationboxthing shown in the picture looks like a tuned pipe for a two stroke only in reverse and thats prolly because it does the same thing but out to the pipe instead of back to the intake , it prolly be only effective in a short powerband
i allways figured the scaveging was done in the collector itself and the way the single pipes where put kindah a little too far intoo that collector stopped the returnwaves and allso why they put in the crossover on a V8 it kindah doubles the size of the pipe too
i once heared a trick to find out where to put the crossoverpipe , finish the exaust except for the crossover paint the part you expect the pipe needs to be about and take the car out for a drive until the heat makes the paint crinkle , thats where the exaustpipe gets the hottest and the place you need to put the pipe , i guess it should work determening the place for that therminationbox as thats the place where the gasses colide with the returnwave too

i figure the sound whill be sortah surging howling (think gas/oil heater starting up) once the rpm gets in the pipes range

[Frizzle Fry]

Not sure how to nicely put this, but that's all wrong. Good comedy though Read the linked article if you are interested in understanding the science behind tuning exhaust. I'm no expert by any means, but there are many myths out there that will lead you in the wrong direction if you just accept them as fact.

[watahyahknow]

i will read the article
i allso like to see if youre exaust works and how it will sound , the info i had has been quite a few years old from the days that grinding out ports on stock heads . high rize manifolds , yellow accel coils unburned gasses out the exaust and lumpy idle where the norm in dragracing , these things change over the years as more test data comes in

[xxcov3rxx]

WOW. Your attention to detail is impeccable. This thing is a work of art and I have enjoyed all 40 something pages of watching you take metal and blend it in. I just entered the fab world and have a lot to learn, but would love to watch how you blend sheet metal into the body. That is a skill that I would like to master. Sure would help on the finishing side!


Enough of me rambling! subscribes!!

[69gmcc10]

Seriously FF! Ya had to tell us this little nugget of info about exhaust tuning, FML!!! Now, I have to start doing research and find out everything I can about tuning exhaust, just when I thought I was gonna have a productive day at work. My boss is gonna hate you.

Great work and thanks for the knowledge!

[Frizzle Fry]

Originally Posted by watahyahknow

i will read the article
i allso like to see if youre exaust works and how it will sound , the info i had has been quite a few years old from the days that grinding out ports on stock heads . high rize manifolds , yellow accel coils unburned gasses out the exaust and lumpy idle where the norm in dragracing , these things change over the years as more test data comes in

Those "tricks" resulted in some fast cars too. So they are hard to doubt. That is until the real mechanism behind the magic is weeded out though comprehensive testing. Thanks to those who figure it all out for the rest of us

Originally Posted by xxcov3rxx

WOW. Your attention to detail is impeccable. This thing is a work of art and I have enjoyed all 40 something pages of watching you take metal and blend it in. I just entered the fab world and have a lot to learn, but would love to watch how you blend sheet metal into the body. That is a skill that I would like to master. Sure would help on the finishing side!
Enough of me rambling! subscribes!!

Thanks man. I'll give a general sequence for dressing/blending:

1. Grind with 4.5" grinding disc angle grinder until just above surface level
2. Blend down to surface level with a 60grit flap disc (must hit the weld from both sides)
3. Flatten with a file (might look flat after previous step but may still have topography)
4. Dress with 60-100 grit on a DA

Originally Posted by 69gmcc10

Seriously FF! Ya had to tell us this little nugget of info about exhaust tuning, FML!!! Now, I have to start doing research and find out everything I can about tuning exhaust, just when I thought I was gonna have a productive day at work. My boss is gonna hate you.

Great work and thanks for the knowledge!

Just tell him how much faster you'll get to work with a properly tuned exhaust

You sound like me; When I get the bug for something I exhaust all resources until I'm satisfied.

[NONHOG]

Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry

You sound like me; When I get the bug for something I exhaust all resources until I'm satisfied.

Right there is the difference between a "car guy" and someone who is into cars.
All about being satisfied. Take exhaust choices. The reality is the best mufflers vs. really good muffler are just a few HP. I doubt anyone
can feel 3 HP. But a car guy is going to get the best because it pleases him (or her).
and every little bit helps < car guy mentality

[mcbassin]

Blend down to surface level with a 60grit flap disc (must hit the weld from both sides)

What kind of flapper disc do you use? I have tried them in the past and never liked them. Maybe I didn't buy the right kind/brand? 3M? Norton? other?

[Frizzle Fry]

I'm not really picky about brand. Dewalts seem to last longer, but I'm not above a few from HF every now and then.

[76C10Stepside]

Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry

Thanks man. I'll give a general sequence for dressing/blending:

1. Grind with 4.5" grinding disc angle grinder until just above surface level
2. Blend down to surface level with a 60grit flap disc (must hit the weld from both sides)
3. Flatten with a file (might look flat after previous step but may still have topography)
4. Dress with 60-100 grit on a DA

...the catch being that you must hit the weld and ONLY the weld repeatedly. No mean task for someone whose eyes are failing and hands are getting shaky!
Thanks for the DEETS, though! I'll try to follow these steps next time around!

[ERASER5]

Just WOW! The fine detail is amazing. Like everyone else, i can hardly wait to see this finished, BUT the down side is, fewer updates on this car. I will really miss that. Good thing there are at least 2 more projects waiting.

[Frizzle Fry]

Originally Posted by 76C10Stepside

...the catch being that you must hit the weld and ONLY the weld repeatedly. No mean task for someone whose eyes are failing and hands are getting shaky!
Thanks for the DEETS, though! I'll try to follow these steps next time around!

Keep the grinder moving, run the abrasive across the seam laterally, and hit the weld from both sides. Sure would be nice to find an angle grinder that can reverse direction.

Originally Posted by ERASER5

Just WOW! The fine detail is amazing. Like everyone else, i can hardly wait to see this finished, BUT the down side is, fewer updates on this car. I will really miss that. Good thing there are at least 2 more projects waiting.

The updates at that point will consist of legendary tales of street domination and auto-x/drifting vids

And no worries on continued projects.
Here's the current fleet:

• 1966 Sunbeam Minx
• 1969 Tahoe
• 1964 Chevy 1/2ton Long/Fleet
• 1961 Chevy Short/Step
• 1968 FJ40 (Wife's)

...and we recently added ANOTHER one to the fleet: A 1968 VW Squareback for my 13yo son-
Rescue Day:








All these boxes of parts and a full interior came with:


"There's yer problem right there..."

[67cheby]

luv me a little Square back action....I AM IN !

[Frizzle Fry]

Originally Posted by 67cheby

luv me a little Square back action....I AM IN !

Guess I'll have to start a thread once we really get rollin on it. We will be taking the opposite approach of the Driftbeam: Keep It Simple! That way it has a chance of being ready to drive when he is

[OLDIRON69]

Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry

Guess I'll have to start a thread once we really get rollin on it. We will be taking the opposite approach of the Driftbeam: Keep It Simple! That way it has a chance of being ready to drive when he is

Famous last words!

[65Pickup]

Nice Father/Son project, always liked the type 3's, the look on his face says it all.
...and a little inspiration.

[mcbassin]

Lucky kid you've got there. Congrats on adding to the herd
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