The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)

[gerfunken]

I did two elk hunts up in that area. Johnson crater is one unique place to see, and like you said, there's a lot of explanations that somehow just don't make a lot of sense when you see it.

I have followed some of those same old rail beds, but never knew about that tunnel, that's really unique.

[mosesburb]

Originally Posted by stersam

I have a 73 c20 with a canopy and a friend is basically giving me the parts to make it 4x4.

Nice!!

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Great trip with cool pix. Like you and others have said that is amazing workmanship on the tunnel and dam both. I really enjoy the history that comes with each of your adventures. Great experience for your son as well.

Thanks!! That's the name of the game. He has developed quite the appreciation for things we see and do. Such that he will often times remark about how something we see is cool, but not being treated with the respect or vandalized etc. It really shows his true appreciation for the stuff we see as opposed to just, meh, whatever, and no connection to it whatsoever. I may have mentioned this somewhere along the way here, but a while back I asked him what his favorite trip/run/etc was. He thought about it awhile and I think it was the trip we did a couple years ago through NV, UT, ID, MT, WY, SD, CO, NM. Then I asked him what his favorite day was that he spent on the couch or playing video games etc. He couldn't think of one. My point exactly!! Hopefully he will continue to enjoy the outdoors as he gets older.

Originally Posted by piratexpress1369a

Those are some awesome pictures and that tunnel blows everything out of the water with the workmanship
Posted via Mobile Device

Originally Posted by lower50's

Really cool trip. That tunnel looks awesome!!!!

Thanks guys. Yeah, something so utilitarian, in the middle of nowhere but yet so cool.

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

We went to the Lake of the Ozarks last week. I saw a trail on the side of a hill and thought of you. I whipped the Excursion down it and my wife thought we were going down a hill side. It was hilarious, to me. Anyhow, the Ex needs a beefy rear sway bar to do the stuff you do. (And a front drive shaft) I had to turn around about 5 miles in it when the hill side was just gone and turned into a rock wall. No way the hi-way tank was doing that. LMAO!

Very cool!! We had a little side adventure ourselves on Saturday. We didn't want to head for the house at that point in time so we ran a trail we had run with a group a while back. Unplanned good times are often the best times.

Originally Posted by gerfunken

I did two elk hunts up in that area. Johnson crater is one unique place to see, and like you said, there's a lot of explanations that somehow just don't make a lot of sense when you see it.

I have followed some of those same old rail beds, but never knew about that tunnel, that's really unique.

Yeah, there is quite a bit of interesting things in that area. Funny how a very non-descript, nothing special exit off the highway holds all kinds of neat things to do/explore.

[mosesburb]

At the beginning of August last year, we headed up to the car show at Watson Lake (the show we typically enter the Suburban into solely for the preferred parking). We passed on entering the Suburban this year and it worked out ok as we found some pretty sweet rides out in the parking area.

This old Napco was my favorite of the day:



Inside the show there was a cool old sedan setup in old-school camp fashion:





Behind the plywood is a tiny wood stove for heat:



Proof you don't need all of the latest and greatest technology to have a good time.

We wandered around the show, saw a bunch of neat stuff in the cool weather, then decided to head for home. On the way back we took a turn off the highway for no reason and did a little wandering around back in the hills. We had no destination in mind, just seeing what we could see. We ended up finding an old cemetery:



The old fencing around it was really ornate. Nothing like it would be today. The fence posts had some really neat tensioning devices on it:



Never seen anything like it before.

Wandering along following some old maps that could have used a healthy dose of updating we followed what we believed to be a road that would lead us out of where we were. We came to an area that had washed out pretty bad. After walking ahead and determining it kind of resembled what was on the map, we decided to press on. The washout crossed the trail at an odd angle:



Dropping in:







We got through that ok and just a little further down the trail we came across another area that washed out. It didn't look like much, but did flex the truck out a little going across it.







Then came one of my favorite pictures of the truck:



After we got out of that area we did some wandering around in a different area. Not much to post pictures of, but I did see a really neat rock in an undisclosed location:



So for having no plans to run trails on our journey, we ended up having a great day. Not knowing exactly where we were definitely added to the adventure of the whole thing. Good times!!

[Dieselwrencher]

Very nice! The burb looks great flexing like that!

[1leglance]

That was a fun run...
Thanks for letting me passenger seat it...the car show was full of cool rides ,and the trail run was a great no pressure adventure.

We need to get back into the dirt very soon!

[deejaaa1]

great read. took several weeks to get through it and enjoyed every minute.
I hope to get the 93 4 door working good to be able to get out on a few adventures. have the 6.5 but hope for a 12 valve.

[justcuz]

Nick,
Is the off ramp the one east of Ashfork that appears to go nowhere?
Reminds me of one of those you can't get there from here roads. Paved on the south side for a while and pretty much dirt up above. We got turned around there when they were paving I 40 out that way, but the wife was not in much of an exporting mood.
How is the road out of Bagdad going northwest towards Kingman?

[mosesburb]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

Very nice! The burb looks great flexing like that!

Thanks!!

Originally Posted by 1leglance

That was a fun run...
Thanks for letting me passenger seat it...the car show was full of cool rides ,and the trail run was a great no pressure adventure.

We need to get back into the dirt very soon!

Yeah, maybe when I finish my latest acquisition. Then after I finish your oiling system heat exchanger and my tachometer issues and, and, well, maybe sooner than that....

Originally Posted by deejaaa1

great read. took several weeks to get through it and enjoyed every minute.
I hope to get the 93 4 door working good to be able to get out on a few adventures. have the 6.5 but hope for a 12 valve.

Several weeks?!? Glad you enjoyed the ride after that investment of time!! Thanks!!

Originally Posted by justcuz

Nick,
Is the off ramp the one east of Ashfork that appears to go nowhere?
Reminds me of one of those you can't get there from here roads. Paved on the south side for a while and pretty much dirt up above. We got turned around there when they were paving I 40 out that way, but the wife was not in much of an exporting mood.
How is the road out of Bagdad going northwest towards Kingman?

Every exit east of Ashfork looks sketchy as hell until you get near Williams. This one is Welch Rd. Never took that road out of Bagdad.

[justcuz]

As I recall the one I was thinking of was County Line Rd. off ramp.
I want to check that road out of Bagdad some day.

[mosesburb]

This run was the next weekend from the last one. I had been having problems with my navigation computer, one specific map program and my buddy Lance had done a bunch of work on it trying to get it to work right, but there was only one way to find out if it was working correctly--take it for a drive.

We settled on a trail I had seen recently. Now, once upon a time, long, long ago, before roads connected all of the little towns in the Bradshaw mountains, ore from the mines and supplies from the bigger towns were transported by mule teams. Hauling ore in this fashion is extremely expensive. If mineral prices drop below a fairly high price, mining becomes unprofitable. Much like the situation mentioned in previous posts regarding Jerome, a railroad was needed. A railroad through this area would be quite a feat of engineering and labor. The railroad would start out of Prescott and end up in Crown King. For years I wondered how a railroad ended up in Crown King starting from Prescott. Now much of the road that we drive on to get to Crown King is old railroad grade, but I could not figure out how it got down into the valley. I finally found an old hand drawn map that showed the route that the railroad took. I couldn't plot the map onto a current map, but with a bunch of time on Google Earth, I was able to locate pieces of where it ran and how it was routed. Some of it was visibly still drivable. Much of it is not however. A bunch of the old rail grade parallels highway 69 from Dewey/Humboldt to Prescott and is visible from the road where there are fills that crossed low areas and cuts through hills. Another area that can be found but not driven is near Blue Belle Mine. Some mining operations have restarted at the mine and a locked gate blocks the road to the mine. This was a neat setup. The ore came out of the mine area on a tramway and was dumped into ore bins at the railroad siding. Here the train would be loaded to take the ore to the mill. The tramway was over a mile long. I have heard the upper end of the tramway was still standing, but I can not determine for sure since the road is now closed. The railroad siding is long gone as are the bins and tramway. A little further down the line, the grade passes through private property and down beyond that finally comes out onto public land. This is where we set out to.

This was basically a research run to see what could actually be driven and how far we could go because the satellite imagery on Google Earth only goes so far. We set out, Lance, my boy and I in the Suburban and Lance's youngest son running point on a dirtbike. He and Lance had a real neat communication device between his helmet and Lance's phone. It was Bluetooth so it worked even when we had no cell coverage. Having him running point was very cool as he would call and tell us what he was seeing and not to go this way or that.

So we set out and got on the trail.



Washout on a filled low area that Lance's son called out:



There was a bypass to the raised area that we took to bypass the washout:



Last summer was fairly damp and we were surprised to see the cattle tanks (AKA ponds in other parts of the country) actually had a fair bit of water in them:



I don't think I'd like to be hiking along and come over this hill and have to naviagate down through all of this cacti:



We came to a point, next to a tank, where the trail kind of stopped. It was obvious the railroad grade continued on ahead so Lance took off to wee where it went:



Looking back up from the way we came down the hill:



A little further down the hill:



Gigantic conglomerate rock along the way:



The railroad looped around down the hill we hiked down looped around and ended up way down below where we were. It is visible down along the side of the canyon way below where we are:



Unfortunately, this is where our journey on the railroad ends. More research will have to be done to see if the lower area can be accessed from somewhere down below. We ended up wandering back via a different route than we entered. We had a good time and learned a fair bit about the old railroad and the route it took. Hopefully I will be able to continue the story of this railroad at some point when I learn some more about the area.

[Average Joe]

Another cool trip. Thanx for the write up and pix. We have a major highway in So. Oregon that was carved in over the Cascades by loggers. The state later paved and widened it.
Its interesting to hear how some roads come about.

[justcuz]

Nice,

Looking at my Benckmark map book, I was surprised at the number of roads up through there. Looks like a nice adventure, thanks again for the pictures.

[hgs_notes]

Adventures trying to track down lost pathways have to be way up on the list of fun $%&^ to do in a truck. Keep rolling down the gravel Nick. I really miss the west. I'm planning a trip out for next summer. If my old house sells and I have a vehicle to haul the gang with that is. Probably not SW but WY, MT, ID and probably not offroad on that trip. Maybe the next one after that will see the jimmy out your way.

[1985-GMC]

Hey what gears do you have and what do you think about a 203/205 doubler?

[Luther Grimace]

Wow! You go on some great adventures.

[mosesburb]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Another cool trip. Thanx for the write up and pix. We have a major highway in So. Oregon that was carved in over the Cascades by loggers. The state later paved and widened it.
Its interesting to hear how some roads come about.

Change "logging" to "mines" and you have the origin of many roads/highways around here.

Originally Posted by justcuz

Nice,

Looking at my Benckmark map book, I was surprised at the number of roads up through there. Looks like a nice adventure, thanks again for the pictures.

All kinds of stuff around. I gave up on Benchmark years ago, but now that Delorme has taken 2/3 of the roads off of their maps, I find myself referencing Benchmark maps again. I bought a new Delorme AZ map awhile back to replace the water damaged/moldy one I bought 20+ years ago. I didn't look at it much before I bought it, but after purchase, I realized it no longer has much of anything beyond a main road (and I'm back into my old, moldy one). I still prefer the 7.5' quad maps from USGS, but they are prohibitively expensive as of late (and big). The OziExplorer program we run on our netbooks is great as it uses those maps and puts a track on it as well. Best of both worlds provided the electrons function properly.....

Originally Posted by hgs_notes

Adventures trying to track down lost pathways have to be way up on the list of fun $%&^ to do in a truck. Keep rolling down the gravel Nick. I really miss the west. I'm planning a trip out for next summer. If my old house sells and I have a vehicle to haul the gang with that is. Probably not SW but WY, MT, ID and probably not offroad on that trip. Maybe the next one after that will see the jimmy out your way.

Sounds like a fun trip. Anytime you get near, let me know.

Originally Posted by 1985-GMC

Hey what gears do you have and what do you think about a 203/205 doubler?

3.73's. As to my thoughts regarding the doubler, what aspect are you asking about??

Originally Posted by Luther Grimace

Wow! You go on some great adventures.

Thanks!!

[1985-GMC]

I'm building a suburban with a 97 12V, nv4500, 1 ton axles with 4:11 gears. For the kind of stuff you do on trails would a doubler helpful or would it be completely unnecessary. I'm just trying to decide if it's worth the extra trouble and money to do it now.

[mosesburb]

Originally Posted by 1985-GMC

I'm building a suburban with a 97 12V, nv4500, 1 ton axles with 4:11 gears. For the kind of stuff you do on trails would a doubler helpful or would it be completely unnecessary. I'm just trying to decide if it's worth the extra trouble and money to do it now.

I didn't do much wheeling when I had the 4.10's in mine as that was when I was still dealing with the driveline vibration (which one attempt at a cure was a different rear axle that had 3.73's). That being said, I didn't like the 4.10's because they were too deep for a torque motor. Fine for a 350 or even a 454, but the Cummins would just wing up immediately then defuel and fall flat. With the 3.73's that problem was eliminated. The motor actually uses the torque it produces and feels much quicker now.

So, in my opinion, I don't think a doubler would help much with 4.10's for what I do. With 3.73's I would give a very cautious maybe. The ONLY time I wish I had deeper gears is when crawling through a rough spot in a trail or descending a steep grade, and then, only to control ground speed. I have never wanted for deeper gearing for more torque, ever. Now, I actually have a 203 range box built by ORD sitting here, setup for a NV4500 with the 32 spline input and the face drilled for the output housing of the 4500 that I decided not to install when I built the truck. So far I have not wished that I had installed it. I will however admit that I wish that I would have put either a 241 case or a LoMax 3.0:1 gearset in the 205 instead of the super terrible stock NP205 low range of 2:1. Once again, only for ground speed control, not torque multiplication. One other point on the multiple transfer case setups, I have heard of heat dissipation issues with the 203 range box as well as the low range units that use the 241 planetaries when used on the highway. Now not every unit, but more than a few have had issues.

So, if I had it to do again, I would still not put the doubler in, but I would definitely consider a transfer case with a low range closer to 3:1. Is the difference worth the pile of money needed to trade for one of these cases?? In the end, probably not....

[1985-GMC]

Ok cool, that's exactly what I needed to make up my mind. I've been back and forth for the last several months trying to decide, plus it will cost about $700 extra. I was also concerned about the strength of the range box with the torque of the Cummins and what long distance travel might do to it, not to mention it being just one more piece to break. I think you're running 35s and I'll be running 37s so according to my little gear calculator app it'll only be about 40 rpm different at 5 mph and 100 rpm at 100 mph so I think I'll just run with that for now. And if I win the power ball tonight I'll go ahead and buy a lomax 205 haha

[MaxPF]

1985, don't listen to that shifty bearded dude! Oh, wait... <strokes beard>

LOL, J/K. I had to make sure my first post was on Nick's thread, razzin' him a bit FWIW I agree with him - the Cummins has plenty of torque, so aside from speed control in rare situations I don't see the benefit. Like him, I have a couple 205 range boxes that never made it on my truck. Unlike him I haven't been off-road yet with the 205, but I based my decisions on his experiences off-road and my experience with my previous 465/241/3.42 setup in high range. I never had a front driveshaft installed or t-case shifter while that combo was in the truck and did one fairly steep ascent/descent on a loose trail in 2WD high range. I put the 465 in first and just let the Cummins do it's thing. Speed was a bit faster than I liked (made the ride a bit rougher than it needed to be) but there was certainly no lack of torque.

Around here it's about $75 to shorten a driveshaft, so I say try it without and if you really, REALLY decide you need it, all it will cost is an extra $75 and maybe some time and wedges to adjust the pinion angle for the shorter shaft. Not a big deal after what you will end up spending on the swap.

[1985-GMC]

Haha I think I'm pretty much set on my plan now. Though before it's all said and done I'm probably going to run a 2wd nv4500 just to get it on the road while I rebuilt the 4wd one I have for it. I might build an exhaust brake for it later on down the road as well.

Max I started watching your build thread over on ck5 years ago, back when you still had the 1.5" input sm456 and yours is awesome as well. Btw I tried showing your thread to someone the other day but most of the pictures are gone...

[MaxPF]

Originally Posted by 1985-GMC

Haha I think I'm pretty much set on my plan now. Though before it's all said and done I'm probably going to run a 2wd nv4500 just to get it on the road while I rebuilt the 4wd one I have for it. I might build an exhaust brake for it later on down the road as well.

D00d, just rebuild the 4WD 4500. Doing stuff twice SUCKS and wastes money. Trust me, I know

Max I started watching your build thread over on ck5 years ago, back when you still had the 1.5" input sm456 and yours is awesome as well. Btw I tried showing your thread to someone the other day but most of the pictures are gone...

Huh... I don't remember ever doing a Cummins swap thread over there

[1985-GMC]

Originally Posted by MaxPF

D00d, just rebuild the 4WD 4500. Doing stuff twice SUCKS and wastes money. Trust me, I know

Yeah you're probably right. I'm not there yet so I guess I'll see what happens. Though the only real extra expense would be having the rear driver shaft shortened twice.

Originally Posted by MaxPF

Huh... I don't remember ever doing a Cummins swap thread over there

Yeah you're right. It was 4btswaps, you just posted the link on ck5. I'm on way too many forums

[MaxPF]

Hmm, well, I s'pose I could post a build thread up here. I would have done it on CK5, but I ain't willing to pay $25 a year for the privilege. I also have no way of fixing the pics on 4BTswaps since the posts have limited edit time.

[mosesburb]

I would like to start off by thanking ryanroo for the truck of the month nomination. I haven't been around much lately, but I got a text from the other Ryan saying it had been nominated and was actually getting some votes. Ol 'roo had some very kind words to say about the Sub, but honestly, the only reason it is getting any votes is because his truck isn't finished and thus not eligible for the contest. Anyway, if you'd like to throw a vote in the hat for it, you can do so HERE

Ok, so times have been a bit hectic around here lately. More accurately, lately would be the last six or seven months. It started with my wife's truck needing paint. That simple. Anyone who has priced paint recently knows a decent paint job costs a ton of money. I found that it was less expensive to buy a vehicle with good paint rather than pay for paint on the existing vehicle. That went well. Found a sweet little truck with a straight body and good paint. After a good detail we were in business. Then everything(!!) else on the truck decided to give me grief. Finally got everything working well and she is happy with it. In the meantime, my daily decides oil to the top end of the motor is no longer needed. I tried a few things and determined nothing easy was going to fix it, so it sits waiting for a motor (which is in the garage patiently waiting to be put in the game). Ironically, my wife's old truck with the bad paint is still putting in work daily serving as my daily while I deal with everything else and my truck sits waiting. In amongst here my buddy Lance's 70 Suburban came in for a cam change. It ran good but had way too much cam in it for what it was in. The cam change turned into much more and its mail was forwarded to my place for about three months. Along the way, it went to the trans shop to get its shift points fine tuned and I snuck out with the family for a day on the trail. On the way home my truck decided to spit the dowel pin out and blow it through the timing gear case. Google "killer dowel pin" for an explanation of what happened. After I took care of that, I noticed I had coolant seeping out of a couple head bolts on the Cummins. That is something typically associated with a high mile head gasket. Mine is only a few years old. The general consensus was to retorque the head bolts and it should last for a while. The words "should" and "awhile" used in the same sentence really doesn't work well with how we use this thing so off with the head again. Everything looked fine except the wet head bolts, and went back together with a new Cummins gasket and all new head bolts. In the mean time, Lance took his Suburban on his typical test drive down the Baja Peninsula in old Mexico chasing a race truck in the NORRA 1000. He got about seventy miles south of Ensenada and it snapped a rocker stud. With no easy fix available, he brought the truck home and he jumped in his wife's brand new car and turned around and went right back to Mexico. I finally got my Suburban back into the running column and now his hooptie sits here awaiting repairs. Ugh.

So that is the quick explanation of why there have been no updates lately--seriously. That list was only the high points with very little detail of the rest of the crap. Anyway, I have a bunch of stuff to post and figure if I don't get after it, it will never happen. I actually loaded these pics a couple months ago and haven't had a chance to post them up. So, without further adieu, here we go!! This post will make more sense if you do a quick review of the last picture post I did where we traveled on an old section of rail bed. I didn't realize this trip would relate to things on that trip, but was pleasantly surprised when I found the relationship between them.

The destination for the day was a place called Sheep's Crossing. It was a bridge used by sheep herders to get their flocks safely across the Verde River back in the day.

The ride started out through some scenic, higher altitude desert.



A nice view of what we are dropping into:



First view of the bridge:



The bridge:



Now comes something I didn't know. This bridge is an imposter. The original was replaced by this structure long AFTER the sheep herders quit using the original bridge. I still have no idea why we spent the money to build this if it is not used for herding sheep across the river. It is not wide enough for a vehicle to cross, only pedestrians or bicycles. Once I learn this, I am no longer interested in the new span. Any intuitive followers of the adventures around here will know I am now interested in what is left of the original structure. Good thing for me and the content of this thread, there are some remnants to be found.

Here you can see an abutment for the original bridge:



This is an original abutment from the far side of the bridge:



Remnants of the cabling from the original bridge behind the far abutment:



Interesting albeit somewhat sketchy anchoring of the cabling...

Anyone who know about cable will recognize this is not normal cable used to support bridge spans:



The people who built the original span were not wealthy individuals. They were ranchers who could not afford to lose sheep to the river while running them from winter grazing grounds in the south to the summer grazing grounds in the north country. That being the case, they had to use what they had available to keep costs reasonable. One of the most expensive things they would need is the cabling. The resourcefulness of the ranchers came through in the use of used tram cable for the bridge support. Yep, the tram cable from the Blue Belle Mine found its way across a couple ranges, down a big hill and across a couple abutments to support the bridge for their sheep to safely cross the river. That is why the cable is smooth on the outside. It is designed to have a heavy tram car run on it. So very cool to go see something that I thought was an original bridge, only to find it is a recent copy/interpretation of the original, but then find so many remnants of the original bridge lurking in the shadows of the new span. Cool stuff.

On our way out, we found this saguaro that decided it had enough and was leaving too: