2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments

[Mike_82_Shortbox]

Originally Posted by hairlesshobo

Mike, everywhere I have read failed to mention anything about the brakes needing to be locked in order to use a caster camber gauge. Would you be willing to explain why? Iljke to know how/why something affects something else when I do it, and I definitely want to make sure I take my time and do it right.

Also, i have yet to find a shop in town that does even a decent job at an alignment, especially one that you can ask for something other than what their computer says without them arguing with you. Plus, every shop I've been to here wants a minimum of 75 for a real alignment.

Hobo,

Sorry, I am in Oregon, and I know prices vary widely.

I don't really know if you need to lock your wheels or not. I don't know what kind of equipment you are using. But in order to properly measure the caster on an alignment machine, the brakes have to be locked so that the alignment heads will not move off-axis, and allow them to measure the caster angle.

For the left wheel, with positive caster, a line drawn from the center of the spindle will move in an upward arc when the steering wheel is turned right, and downward when it is turned left. That angle from horizontal is the caster angle, and it can only be measured by machine when the brakes are locked.

Your guage may work without having to do this, but I don't see how...

Mike

[hairlesshobo]

Originally Posted by Mike_82_Shortbox

Hobo,

Sorry, I am in Oregon, and I know prices vary widely.

I don't really know if you need to lock your wheels or not. I don't know what kind of equipment you are using. But in order to properly measure the caster on an alignment machine, the brakes have to be locked so that the alignment heads will not move off-axis, and allow them to measure the caster angle.

For the left wheel, with positive caster, a line drawn from the center of the spindle will move in an upward arc when the steering wheel is turned right, and downward when it is turned left. That angle from horizontal is the caster angle, and it can only be measured by machine when the brakes are locked.

Your guage may work without having to do this, but I don't see how...

Mike

For reference sake, this is the gauge that I am using: http://www.longacreracing.com/catalo...id=129&catid=5

Even though I didn't have much room to work when I tried to look at my alignment yesterday, I was in fact able to try out the gauge and get a feel for how it works. I re-read the directions that came with the gauge about 10 times before starting. It appears that the brakes don't need to be locked when doing an alignment with the bubble style gauge. I assume this is because when you do your 40* sweep, you sweep out first, rotate the gauge until it is level with the ground and set caster to 0*, then sweep past center to 20* inward and rotate the gauge again to be level with the ground. With this in mind, they expect you to rotate the gauge when setting caster so if the tire were to roll a little, it wouldn't make much of a difference because you have to re level the gauge each time anyways.

I still think it's a wise choice to lock the e-brake anyways just to make sure it doesn't try to slip off the turn plates or anything like that.

Just my thoughts about this, but who knows.. I may be completely wrong, won't be the first time.

-Steve

[Mike_82_Shortbox]

Originally Posted by hairlesshobo

For reference sake, this is the gauge that I am using: http://www.longacreracing.com/catalo...id=129&catid=5

Even though I didn't have much room to work when I tried to look at my alignment yesterday, I was in fact able to try out the gauge and get a feel for how it works. I re-read the directions that came with the gauge about 10 times before starting. It appears that the brakes don't need to be locked when doing an alignment with the bubble style gauge. I assume this is because when you do your 40* sweep, you sweep out first, rotate the gauge until it is level with the ground and set caster to 0*, then sweep past center to 20* inward and rotate the gauge again to be level with the ground. With this in mind, they expect you to rotate the gauge when setting caster so if the tire were to roll a little, it wouldn't make much of a difference because you have to re level the gauge each time anyways.

I still think it's a wise choice to lock the e-brake anyways just to make sure it doesn't try to slip off the turn plates or anything like that.

Just my thoughts about this, but who knows.. I may be completely wrong, won't be the first time.

-Steve

Steve,

Looks like you got it. The releveling of the guage is the equivalent to locking the brakes on an electronic machine it seems, so if you go by the instructions, you should be fine. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

Mike

[BMERDOC]

Mike, the discrepancy in dynamic toe changes is why I recommend setting toe at the average of the spec. I see the point in engineering allowances for suspension deflection. I myself am not terribly worried about getting the utmost from toe settings on a street truck because I not tryng to shave tenths off my lap times. Please don't think I'm knocking you, I'm not. I thank you for the additional thoughts and info. I would like to experiment with the toe settings for road feel on my truck once I feel caster and camber are where they should be.
I didn't look back for the specs but I think that I was refering to an E46 M3. The specs for that car are 6.92 to 7.92 for caster and and -.67 to -1.33 for camber. I'm not sure of the spec on my E36 325i (I know, shame on me) but the next time one is on the rack I'll be sure to check the specs.

[BMERDOC]

I think I'm about to say something really good about toe but I cant get my thoughts straight. I've written a post four times now and erased them all. I need to sort my thoughts. Im thinking maybe I should start a Word file and cut and paste once i feel its right. Its nothing genius just solid thought from an over active mind.

[Mike_82_Shortbox]

I am getting a new set of wheels and tires on Friday, then I'll have the alignment rechecked. I think my other wheels are bent. They are balanced perfectly but the truck shimmies on the freeway. I also have a turning radius problem that is new since my new frontend parts.

I never mentioned my broken crossmember at the steering box. I have it chained together. That's another $600 to fix, which will be next week.

I think I am going to eventually lower this truck and give it a BMW wheel alignment. I may rely on this forum for the guidance to do that. The rear end looks easy; the front not so much.

[usmcchevy]

BMERDOC, Just want to say thanks again for your work in this thread. Thanks to this thread and Rob's "Make it handle" thread, today I tore apart my front end again. I'm shifting my lower control arms forward 3/4".

Old.



New.



I'm hoping to make a nice handling DD out of this truck. So just to verify, I should ask for

Camber: -.5
Caster: As much as possible. Or should I give them a range?
Toe: Average of Spec.

This is with 2" drop spindles, stock front springs with 1/2 coil cut and 5" rear drop springs. Thanks!!!

[Mike_82_Shortbox]

Did you just rotate those rods and drill a locating hole on the other side? I think I want to do the same thing...

Can you tell me the diameter and center to center measurement for the locator holes (are there two or only one per rod)?

Thanks!

[usmcchevy]

Originally Posted by Mike_82_Shortbox

Did you just rotate those rods and drill a locating hole on the other side? I think I want to do the same thing...

Can you tell me the diameter and center to center measurement for the locator holes (are there two or only one per rod)?

Thanks!

Yes, turned the shafts 180deg and drilled a 5/8" hole a little over 1/8" deep. The locating pin measures right at 5/8" so I had to wallow the hole out a hair so the shaft would seat correctly. There is only one locator pin per side and I drilled 2" from the shaft shoulder. 73+ shafts are different take a look here: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=501241

[BMERDOC]

usmcchevy, you camber can be in a range of -.5 to -1.0. Camber shouldnt be over -2.0 on a street driven vehicle and yes get as much caster as you can.

Mike, I looked at all the cars being aligned yesterday and camber was in the 6 to 7 degree range including the X5 I aligned (6.2 to 7.2). I think I'm gonna start doing my toe adjustments in fractional to see if there is much difference in the specified range. Keep in mind that these cars are rack and pinion, front steer cars and most use between a 225 and a 255 front tire.

[hairlesshobo]

usmcchevy, I look forward to finding out what kinda caster angles this modification allows you to have. Also, what size rims & tires are you running? I really want to do this mod to my truck but I want to make sure that it isn't gonna cause any issues with my current wheels.

[BMERDOC]

So, true to my word, I performed an alignment using fractions instead of degrees/minutes. Hey?!?! Hasn't someone said before that 1/16th per side with 1/8th total is the hot lick for a performance alignment? Huh, cool. I will say that its not as accurate as I'm used to. I normally have to tweak and tweak to get the average of spec but I had to specifically look at the center mark and align it to that because 1/16th took up the entire hot zone of the scale. I guess thats what happens when you use a laser alignment machine I'll continue to align them for a little while like this.Its easy to swap back and forth between degrees/minute and fractions by clicking on the steering wheel icon on the scale and selecting the menu for changing measurements. And yes this car was that bad initially. The steering wheel was offcenter pointing to 10 o'clock and the steering felt twitchy.

[usmcchevy]

Thanks BMERDOC.

Originally Posted by hairlesshobo

usmcchevy, I look forward to finding out what kinda caster angles this modification allows you to have. Also, what size rims & tires are you running? I really want to do this mod to my truck but I want to make sure that it isn't gonna cause any issues with my current wheels.

My wheels are some old 15x8.5 slots. New front tires will be here Monday 255/60R15. Should have them on Wednesday.The rear has some old 275/60R15s that I plan to burn off I am having a bit of trouble finding a place that will use my alignment specs or that doesn't want $130+"fees" for a custom alignment...

[hairlesshobo]

Originally Posted by usmcchevy

Thanks BMERDOC.



My wheels are some old 15x8.5 slots. New front tires will be here Monday 255/60R15. Should have them on Wednesday.The rear has some old 275/60R15s that I plan to burn off I am having a bit of trouble finding a place that will use my alignment specs or that doesn't want $130+"fees" for a custom alignment...

Believe me, I understand the trouble finding a decent alignment shop that will work with you... that's exactly why I am learning to do them myself. I know it may not be as accurate, but at least I know it's set the way I want it, considering that I am the one driving the truck every day.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by Ackattack

I was just looking at the alignment tools available, several differnt brands from summit, and most of them read to the .5 degrees on caster/camber. If I remember right, the ipod app I have reads to .1 degree. For all I know (right now) there may be a specific alignment app for it.

If not, maybe I should develop one and make millions. Not that I know how to make an ipod/iphone apps nor would I make millions.....oh well....free idea for someone.

I have one on my iPhone called angle meter that reads two axis angles at the same time and shows precision down to 0.01 degrees in both axis.

Now I just have to rig up a mount assembly for it so I can use it to set caster & camber at the same time. With the right mount it could also be used to set toe. I have some ideas but need to play around to see what will work.

[grwnded71]

Originally Posted by usmcchevy

BMERDOC, Just want to say thanks again for your work in this thread. Thanks to this thread and Rob's "Make it handle" thread, today I tore apart my front end again. I'm shifting my lower control arms forward 3/4".

Old.



New.



I'm hoping to make a nice handling DD out of this truck. So just to verify, I should ask for

Camber: -.5
Caster: As much as possible. Or should I give them a range?
Toe: Average of Spec.

This is with 2" drop spindles, stock front springs with 1/2 coil cut and 5" rear drop springs. Thanks!!!

How did moving the lca forward effect how the coil spring sits in its pocket?

[robnolimit]

Keep this going Doc, good things happenin here.

[BMERDOC]

Thans Rob. It seems to have taken on a life of its own! I dont mind that at all! I'll be modifying my lowers soon also. Then, of course, posting the results. I need to go back to your thread to brush up on what happens to the control arm centers when a lowered spring in installed and what happens to the spindle arm as the caster is adjusted (bumpsteer)

[gringoloco]

Originally Posted by BMERDOC

...I'll be modifying my lowers soon also. Then, of course, posting the results...

Looking VERY forward to this. Thanks for doing this- awesome thread!

[usmcchevy]

Originally Posted by grwnded71

How did moving the lca forward effect how the coil spring sits in its pocket?

The spring isn't touching anything it shouldn't as far as I can tell. It drives quiet with no bind issues. Keep in mind this is with 1/2 coil cut from stock springs or about 1" drop springs. The more drop (shorter the spring) the greater the spring angle will be.











Tires go on tomorrow, alignment Thurs-Friday.

Originally Posted by BMERDOC

Thans Rob. It seems to have taken on a life of its own!

My bad

[grwnded71]

Quote:The spring isn't touching anything it shouldn't as far as I can tell. It drives quiet with no bind issues. Keep in mind this is with 1/2 coil cut from stock springs or about 1" drop springs. The more drop (shorter the spring) the greater the spring angle will be.



Cool..I have my front end apart and getting ready for ECE 5/6 drop and all new steering/suspension components....I should definitely do this mod while its all apart! Great info!!

[robnolimit]

This is great!!! I can't wait to hear the results, both the alignment, and how it drives. Pretty ecxiting to think that you may have a big improvement in the drive quality, handling, and safety of your truck, for just a few $$ bucks. Great job.

[Greywolf200]

Originally Posted by usmcchevy

BMERDOC, Just want to say thanks again for your work in this thread. Thanks to this thread and Rob's "Make it handle" thread, today I tore apart my front end again. I'm shifting my lower control arms forward 3/4".

This is with 2" drop spindles, stock front springs with 1/2 coil cut and 5" rear drop springs. Thanks!!!

This is exactly the setup I'm considering. How about some side pics to show the stance and what are your tire sizes?

Thanks,

[Portmod7]

Originally Posted by Greywolf200

Alignment 101......Gonna show my ignorance here, let's say we're talking about the left UCA. Adding shims to both screws will increase positive camber? Removing shims from both screws with increase negative camber? Adding shims to the front screw or removing shims from the rear screw will increase negative caster? Is this the way it works? Would like to not sound so ignorant when talking to the tech.

Thanks,

Won't this increase positive caster?

Love the thread by the way, very good info.

One thing I've noticed about toe over the years... If you have toe-in, the front end will usually be very touchy and darty as you turn the wheel. If you have toe-out, it usually makes the front end seem lazy.

Reading the concerns over thrust angle, if you did find yourself having issues with it because the frame might be tweaked, you might be able to get some satisfaction out of removing the rivets on the trailing arm mounts, replacing them with bolts, and using washers to shim between the mount and the crossmember on whichever side of the truck is too short. Just a thought....

[BMERDOC]

You are right Portmod7, clearly I wasnt paying attention.