25$ paintjob?

[rayce08]

well first off guys , im not recommending or or not the roll method , i painted one piece , just one . i was only wondering why some got good results and others turned out like crap . my results were great , but i read everyones mistakes and advise and took my time . to me , in my opinion , this method is very time cunsuming and labor intensive , but cheap , and with patience , can turn out very nice , everyone does not have patience and some will quickly say this is not worth it and quit , u will have to spend more time on rolling to make it look like a nice spray job , in my opinion . the roll method also has a color limitation and mettalics are not possible . if u have the money i would spray , time , colors , and uv protection are better , if your on a tight budget , dont have the right tools and have patience and like to do new things then rolling is for u .

[Bowtie001]

Mike85, I don't care how green it is either, I only care about how high my 7 month old will be after I spray in the garage underneath his bedroom. Since this is in my home garage, I simply wanted to explore an obvious pro of the roll on method (not having fumes) to see if there was a viable option to be had in the spray realm. What you are saying is that there is not. OK, so all of the questions I posed about the comparison to spray equipment costs is still valid, and I would still like to explore that for a single stage or a BC/CC option.

I am with slowlearn, we are trying to talk something through, that's all. I make a living too as an engineer, but if someone thinks they have a better mousetrap, I'll try my best to explain why it won't work if it really won't. This happens all of the time with HHO followers. I don't understand how I keep getting shut down. This does seen to happen more here than on the other areas of the board. I guess if I can't see productive answers here I'll just bail and leave you guys to your forum.

So I guess I am guilty of threadjacking at this point, but I will try once more to ensure no crossed signals.

I am trying to compare a spray job versus a roll on job. I understand that most of you have concerns about UV and longevity of the roll on job, but lets leave that alone for now, because I have hears contradictory reports of both of those. What I'd like to know is how much the cost is to tool up, or more specifically, what hardware requirements are there for a compressor gun and basic paint that I could use to get a decent job done? My other goal is to understand the pros and cons of each method.

Enamel:
Pros
Forgiving
Cheap
No booth needed
Cons
Time consuming
UV resistance
Won't ever be much better than typical OEM quality

Spray
Pros
Good quality a possibility
Good UV resistance
Cons
Requires compressor
Requires booth
Requires spray gun
More expensive materials
Less forgiving for runs or dust

Can anyone add to this list?


OK, that being said, I really an trying to get a question answered here. If anyone wants to chime in, please let me know.

-Brian

[Shane]

Go for it. Please report your findings. Good luck.

[carpainter]

Originally Posted by carpainter

This has turned into an interesting post. I have read with much amusement the comments by Richard, Mike and Vintage. It sounds just like me in front of my class trying to explain this stuff. As usually happens, some will get it, some will not. There have been numerous posts on the pros and cons of lacquer, single stage paint and non-catalyzed paint like Rustoleum. If I may, let me make a short list of paint types.
1. Lacquer based paint - this includes "rattle can" paint. I shudder when I read on this forum about someone proudly proclaiming they used "rattle can paint" on their truck. Lacquer based paint is a paint that is in-between being dry and wet. There is no hardener in it to link up with the paint so if another paint is sprayed on top of it, it may try to re-wet itself. That is why it wrinkles up sometimes. This is called lifting. The solvent in the paint you just applied is reacting with the lacquer and making the lacquer wet again. The lacquer vapor then pushes against the paint film you just applied and pushes it up. There is no UV protection with lacquer paint.
2. Rustoleum is an enamel paint with no hardener so again, it is somewhat like lacquer in that it is in between being wet and dry. If you try to sand this after it is "dry", you'll see what I mean. Nasty to try and sand off. It usually just balls up and fills your sandpaper. There is a hardener available for this paint but I still wouldn't use it. There is no UV protection with this paint.
3. Acrylic Urethane is the best paint to use for UV protection, hardness and durability. People ask me all the time what paint to use. I always tell them if you stick with urethane you can't go wrong (my 2 cents)
Hope this helps clarify some questions about paint. If I missed something or mis-stated a fact, I'm sure someone will catch it.....lol.

I'm not sure I want to jump in here again bit I thought I addressed this earlier. This argument about using Rustoleum is getting tiresome. We've used Rustoleum at school on kids cars because they wanted to save money and wouldn't listen to reason (me). In our experience:
1. Any mistake made cannot be fixed without sanding and re-painting the entire panel which brings me to the next point.
2. It will not sand. Stock up on sandpaper if you need to sand it.
3. It doesn't lay down like automotive paint. Very orange peely.
4. The car stinks inside like Rustoleum for a LONG time afterward.

Why not use an Automotive single stage paint? It sprays better and can be sanded if you goof up? I even add a little clearcoat to the mix to make it be a bit more sandable and durable. My 2 cents.

[carpainter]

Originally Posted by Mike 85

Ok 1 LAST time.
WaterBOURN paints HAVE to be HEAT DRIED in order to ADHERE properly.
Air drying is OUT of the question unless you want COMPLETE failure.
READ the TECH SHEETS on ANY waterbourn paints and you WILL see they HAVE to be HEAT SET.
You got a bake booth or UV lamps to do this with?
I thinka not.
MAIN reason waterbourn paints are lagging in popularity.
What the hell is SO "green" about that?
Sure,You have LESS VOC's to emit BUT, How much ENERGY are you USING to DRY this crap out?????
Looks like a "wash" to me......
Happy New Year and Peace Out.


"Green", my ASS......Biggest bunch of B.S. I've had blown up mine since ISO's KILL!!!

This might be fodder for another thread and Mike, I'm simply asking a question here. We recently had a Martin Senour paint rep come to school to talk about waterborne paint. If I understood him correctly, air flow is paramount to making waterborne dry. In fact he suggested we would have to retro-fit our booth with fans to make more airflow. I also remember him talking about the infra red heat so I guess I'm asking which works? I lost interest when I found out that only the base coat is waterborne. I agree, what a load of politically correct nonsense.

[vintagesteel]

bowtie001. DO NOT PAINT ANYTHING in that garage!!!! Your family's life is at risk. And I don't know where you got rustloeum not having fumes. If you paint anything in that garage, your son will go nite nite for a long time.

[vintagesteel]

carpainter. Massive airflow was my understanding too. Thats why it was so expensive for shops to use it because there booths had to be modified for more flow. I dont know. like i said, not used it much and dont care too.

[Richard8971]

Originally Posted by Slowlearn

Painting for a living doesn't give one all the answers. The "right" answer is different in California, Tennessee, or Dallas. Give us what you think, inform, but don't pontificate. Painting for a living isn't a holy calling or an act of bravery; it's a trade.

You know Slowlearn, you are right.

All I can say to your rant is that if you are a poor doctor, you will not be a doctor for very long. The successful shops who are painting in CA, TN, or TX do not use Rustoleum... They use top quality automotive grade paints. Some shops prefer PPG, some Dupont, others BASF. But they use paint that was designed for automotive painting. The OEM market does not use Rustoleum. They used to use lacquer and enamel, but now they don't. Like has been said, if Rustoleum was good for painting cars, then why don't they use it, esp since it is cheaper, even for work trucks and fleet trucks?

I have been in the automotive collision field for 20+ years. You are right, I don't have all the answers, I have never said I do. I don't bag on others, I don't rant, I just say what I feel in my opinion is the better way of doing something, based on my experience.

People like to be told what they want to hear, not what is the truth. That is usually why people get upset when they read a post like this.

Show me one person in here who has used crappy paint at some point in their life and would use it again, AFTER having used good quality paint. None of the "pros" on here argue for using poor quality paint. That is because they have used cheap paint at some point in their life and had to deal with the results afterward. Now, we are not discussing what kind of paint to use, personally I like Dupont and Sikkens but I am sure Carpainter, Mike 85, Vintagesteel and Shane have their favorites as well. But none of them like Rustoleum, we are simply suggesting using better paints like urethane BC/CC and SS.

It's funny. If someone posted a thread saying that they were going to use transmission fluid instead of oil in their engine, you probably would not hesitate suggesting that it wasn't a good idea. It's a fluid.... It pours into the oil fill area just fine. But you know that it wasn't designed for use as a motor oil.

So if you suggest to someone who was going to pour tranny fluid into their engine that it wasn't a good idea and they laughed at you and said, "who are you to suggest not doing it? You don't have all the answers...", what would you think of them? So, all we are saying that Rustoleum was never designed for use as an automotive paint, but then again neither was latex house paint. You would likely laugh if someone on here was suggesting how great house paint was for painting cars. I am not trying to pick on you Slowlearn, just hoping you see this issue from where we stand and why sometimes our comments come off wrong, or sound like we are making fun of people. That is truly not our intention.

That's all I am saying, spend just a little more $$$ and save yourself some grief. But then again, I stopped posting in the Body and Paint section a long time ago because some people really don't want to learn, they just want to have something they can endlessly argue over until someone agrees with them. Maybe I should just go back to my cave.

Don

[Mike 85]

I'm by no means an "expert" on ANYTHING outside of screwing up,which I'm quite proficient at but due to MY inadequacies,I've become a good painter. Experience IS the BEST teacher.
As for the waterborne base's,most of my knowledge comes from the airbrushing clan who have used it extensively and 1 thing learned is,it HAS to be heat set in order to dry/adhere properly.I've seen the results first had and delamination is a BIG issue if it's not done properly.
I watched Trucks a few weeks ago and Kevin was using the PPG Envirobase or what ever it is called and basically reaffirmed what I already know.It has to be "dried" weather it be heat or massive airflow in order to "flash" out the "solvents" which as you know,water is VERY tough to evaporate OUT of another substance.Kevin was actually using a heat gun to dry it with and most AB'ers use a regular hair drier to cure it with.
OEM's tried waterborne years back and it was a complete disaster but due to our "greennicks" we obviously are going to be forced into using it like it or not unless the industry as a whole along with US get up and take a stand against it.
"they" whine about VOC's and such but how many advertisements do you see for a waterborne NAIL POLISH???? My wife does her nails and I HAVE to go outside. It honestly stinks MORE than when I'm painting.Acetone got the "by" in the regs which IMO is B.S. Blah,Blah,Blah....
And yeah, As I said earlier in a toung & cheek manor,
Rustoleum DOES stink, and as carpainter said,
FOR A LOOOOOOOOG TIME......

Don, I'll be coming out to your cave,Mine is a little crowded and it's probably warmer out in AZ.I'll bring refreshments.

[Richard8971]

I have room Mike.

I honestly think that if you are truly interested in waterborne please start a new thread. I think you would get more specific answers there.

D

[Richard8971]

Originally Posted by Richard8971

OK, here are some of the pros and cons of each.

Rustoleum:

Pros: Cheap and easy to obtain. Can be spayed or rolled on, making it a practical choice for do-it-yourselfers because you don't need a booth to roll on paint.

Cons: The time involved with rolling, color sanding, rolling more and then buffing outweigh the cost. You end up spending way more time forcing a product to do something it was not designed to do.* Rustoleum is not catalyzed, meaning it will not hold up well against the elements and chemicals, will scratch easy, much much easier than catalyzed paint. It can also fade faster than automotive grade paint. Rustoleum will be more difficult to repair if respraying is needed.

*-This is true even among automotive grade paint. Cheaper paint is not always the best choice as the cheaper brands can be harder to spray and more effort is involved to make them look good. Repairability is greatly affected by the cost of the paint. Generally the more expensive brands of automotive grade paint perform better thant he cheaper brands, meaning the extra cost involved means less time spraying and working with the product.

Automotive grade paint (acrylic enamel, urethane... etc):

Pros: Designed for automotive use and is catalyzed, meaning that it will hold up much better to the elements and chemicals. Easier to repair and will hold a deeper gloss longer. Spraying a car takes hours vs. days rolling a paint job on, and you will have a much more durable finish when you are done.

Cons: Can be more expensive depending on the type of paint and color bought. Cannot be rolled on meaning you should use a booth, which limits some do-it-your-selfers.

Little chemistry lesson. A catalyst is a chemical added to enamel and urethane paint to help it cross-link and harden. Most paints that are not catalyzed air-dry just fine, but they lack durability.

Adding hardener (another name for catalyst) causes a chemical reaction to the paint that forces it to dry and become hard and durable. Catalyzed paints are not easily affected by chemicals and wear and do not scratch easy.

MDC: check with your local automotive supply store. They will have all the information you need on all the different kinds of paints.

Originally Posted by Bowtie001

OK, that being said, I really an trying to get a question answered here. If anyone wants to chime in, please let me know.

-Brian

Brian, if you go back and read the posts the subject has been answered more than once. If you are curious about price comparisons please visit your local automotive supply store. They will be able to show you the products you need and give you more accurate prices than we can here. They can also help with hands on answers regarding compressors, spray guns and that kind of thing.

I really hate to say this the way it comes out. The best way to learn is to buy some Rustoleum and try rolling on a paint job yourself. Then spray some quality automotive grade paint using a compressor and spray gun set-up and then decide for yourself. And stop in when you are done and let us know what you thought of both.

With threads like this, and most will turn into threads like this, the answers are here. Just try your best to sift through it and decide what's best for you.

Don

[my67chevytruck]

I am not an expert, just a typical guy trying to do things myself on our father/son project. I can tell you that i have taken a paint and body class at a local community college, where you have access to body tools, paintguns and a spray booth(must supply your own material). you can also search phone books or the internet for places in your area where you can rent a booth for a weekend. etc.

The way i have approached this is :
did some research, asked general questions, and actually painted parts. I asked my friend , or mods here when i ran into issues (paint not laying down correctly, runs, sags etc.) I have sprayed SS chassis black and BC/CC silver , with a 3 pc 99.00 gun. probably not the results a professional could of gotten out of the same guns. But looks good to me.

I dont think the mods are trying to upset anyone intentionally, just stating what has been learned through years of experience. Good luck with whatever direction you decide to take.