Complete T5 swap thread - one way to skin the cat

[rmsteph828]

I am posting this in regards to the first section of the Complete T5 swap.

"This discussion is about swapping an S10 T5 (in my case, into a 66 C10) – if you have a Camaro T5 then you don’t need the spacer plate or bearing retainer index ring extender outlined below, just drill out the 4 mounting holes on the trans to ½” and bolt the T5 in with the appropriate clutch/pressure plate combo for the trans (i.e. a Camaro clutch kit) and you’re good to go. But, of course, the underlying reason folks like the S10 T5 is the forward shifter mounting location that works so well with truck bench seats."

I took this as truth and found my self a 92 Camaro V6 T5 to drop in my 1964 C10 chevy 230CID. I planned on obtaining the S10 tail housing to move the shifter farther forward. Unfortunately the swap has not been this straight forward as illustrated above. First off the v6 camaro T5 has the ford bolt pattern not the GM(with the ears). Second the spline length is different from the munice sm420 that came out of the C10. The Muncie sm 420 has a spline length of 6.5" while the camaro wc t5 has a spline length of 182.1mm(7.16929") resulting in a difference of .66929". To combat this I bought my self a v8 camaro t5 wc case with the GM bolt pattern(not cheap). I plan on milling myself a spacer plate to make up for the difference. I am posting this to find out if any one else has ran into my same problems and for anyone else planning to attempt this swap.

Thanks

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/sm420.htm
The spline length of the 92 camaro I found in a book How to Rebuild and Modify Your Manual Transmission (Motorbooks Workshop)

[jocko]

rmsteph, not sure I could have been more thorough in my post, and I take minor issue with implying it's "not truth"... My goal was to help folks with the issues I encountered when installing a T5 in a V8 truck that had a 3-speed, not an SM420 - but I had to learn a lot myself before I purchased a trans as well. Anyway, I'm sorry you're having problems. However, it may not have been wise to plan your entire build off of one sentence in a 5 page thread - I believe you may have benefited from reading a little further or a little more of the detail perhaps. As stated in the thread (later), you need a pre-92 trans or it will have a Ford bolt pattern. It has nothing to do with whether it came from a V6 F-body - your issue is the year of mfgr you chose. I didn't know this either and learned it as the thread developed - that is why it's posted later by another helpful member. That tidbit is, however, outlined in some of the links I provided.

Spline length differences are outlined in the thread, but the variables between an S10 and an F-Body (and apparently the differences you're stating between a V6 and V8 F-body?) are the reason I mentioned you may want to make a 2D mockup of your disk/pressure plate/release bearing stacking height. It's the only way to know what you have.

I am curious how you ID'ed the trans you bought? Did you physically pull it from a 92 Camaro or were you going by a part number on the trans?

Thanks for posting and letting others know of the problems you've encountered - it may help someone else out with the same swap.

Also, so you know, your post is identical to a new thread you started, probably no need to start a duplicate and have the info floating around in 2 places. Not a big deal though.

[BAT]

What an amazing and articulate write up! I must be one of the few lucky ones because the '70 C10 I recently bought already had a Z28 T5 with an S10 tail shaft! My only issue is that it has an electronic speedo output. Is there a way to convert that or should I seek out a mechanical speedo tail shaft ('91 or earlier if I understand correctly)?

I am aware of the Cable-X option but from what I have read I don't think I want to go that route.

Thanks again for an amazing thread!!

BAT

[oldtrux]

hey all,just for the info i just calipered input shaft of 3 trannys,original 66 3 speed,89 camaro wc t5,86 s10 t5 donor t5,all of them are 0.592.which ones are metric?

[padresag]

Originally Posted by oldtrux

hey all,just for the info i just calipered input shaft of 3 trannys,original 66 3 speed,89 camaro wc t5,86 s10 t5 donor t5,all of them are 0.592.which ones are metric?

t5 are metric. the measure on the pilot shaft part of the input measures 15mm which equals 0.5906. that makes a variance of 0.0014" between them and the earlier std input size of 0.592"
ron

[oldtrux]

Originally Posted by padresag

t5 are metric. the measure on the pilot shaft part of the input measures 15mm which equals 0.5906. that makes a variance of 0.0014" between them and the earlier std input size of 0.592"
ron

thx for the info!
ordered the .590 size today,i'll get this figured out yet!

[Vilketon]

Hi guys!

I am putting a s-10 t5 in my `61 Apache with a 283, I have all the parts needed except for the clutch. In my truck now I have a 10" clutch. It is quite worn (both pressure plate and disc) and I want to change it.
I understand that many choose to use a 11" clutch from an Astro van. Will that pressure plate fit my flywheel? If not, are there any 10" clutch kits with a 14 spline disc that would fit my truck?

[Vilketon]

One more thing... Is the bolt pattern on the 10,4 clutch the same as the 10"?

[CRGRS 66]

I believe that the best bet is to go with a clutch set that matches what the transmission came from. I bought a clutch pack for a mid 80's camaro. Not yet at the bolting it up point... So not 100% certain it is the right fit, but i am 99.9. Not sure this helps...

[Vilketon]

That was my plan at first, but the s10 clutch is smaller, I think it´s 9 1/8" or something like that. I´m not sure about the Camaro clutch. Perhaps it´s bigger.
If my pressure plate would have been in a good condition I guess that I would have settled with just changing to the smaller s10 disc.
That´s why I need to know which clutches have the same bolt pattern.

Thanks for your reply and good luck with your swap!

[jocko]

Astro 11" clutch disk will fit on the stock v8 flywheel and inside the stock bell hsg.

Highly recommend buying an astro van 11" KIT, which includes disk, pp, and release bearing for reasons stated earlier in the thread - proper stacking height of the combo.

But generally speaking - as CRGRS pointed out, it's important to buy a clutch (kit) that was designed for the trans you're buying it for, not the vehicle or the pressure plate, etc. This ensures proper spline count, among other things.

It can be made to work by piecing together parts, but I had enough headaches already, very glad I went with a complete kit when it came to the clutch disk/pp/release bearing. Known combo that works. Just a recommendation, many ways to skin the cat, as the thread title implies! Good luck, hope the install goes smoothly.

[Larry64]

Jocko
1964 I6 230 short step
I pulled my 92 Camaro WC T5 to put a S-10 tail housing on it. With the shift plate from the S-10 on I can't seem to get it to shift into 5th or reverse no matter how i set up the top plate forks. Any ideas?
Thanks Larry

[jocko]

Was the Camaro T5 already in your truck (with a Camaro tailshaft on it)? Or, are you saying you pulled if from your Camaro(?) to swap on an S10 tail and then put it in your truck?

Did you use the stock truck bell housing or the Camaro bell when installing in the truck?
Does it feel like your stick is binding on the hole you cut in the floor?

Reason I ask - Camaro Bell Housing mounts the trans in a canted fashion, and then a Camaro stick is canted the other direction to compensate (so that it comes up straight through a Camaro console (in a Camaro) closer to the driver with a short stick). There can be interference problems if you use a straight S10 stick on a canted Camaro trans+bell combo. However, if you used the stock truck bell, this shouldn't be your problem.

If you did use the Camaro bell hsg, then buying a Camaro-specifc shifter may solve your problem, because it will compensate for the canted mounting of the trans. But it might be better to just use the stock truck bell housing and a straight (S-10-type) stick.

The big question to answer is whether or not your stick is impinging on the opening you cut in the floor. I assume it's not, but that is the only issue I can think of. Beyond that, I could only imagine this problem is internal to the trans - perhaps something got jacked up when swapping on the tailshaft - since that is really the only thing that has been changed recently. You may be onto something with the question regarding internal fork problem.

Sorry, not sure that is much help, but all I can think of based on the description.

[Vilketon]

Originally Posted by jocko

Astro 11" clutch disk will fit on the stock v8 flywheel and inside the stock bell hsg.

Great, that´s what I wanted to know.
Thank you for all the info in this thread, very helpful.

[Larry64]

Jocko
The trans was in my 64, put on the S-10 tail housing to make room for a console (bucket seats). It is sitting on the bench & not installed because of the problem with shifting. It has been rainy & cold here so I haven't been back out to the carport.
Larry

[jocko]

Hmm, in that case Larry, I can only assume there is an assembly problem in the tailhousing - if reverse and 5th were fine before, then the only thing that has changed is the shifting linkage inside the tailhousing from the S10. Do you know if the tailhousing came off a working trans? If yes, then it's got to be an assembly problem (the mating of it with your trans) or if unsure, then it could actually be a defective part even if you assembled it correctly. Sorry, but we're now getting into the innards of the T5 and that's where I start to walk around in a dark room feeling for the walls... I do have a T5 assembly manual in .pdf format I can send you if you like. PM me with your email and I'll send it. (there was a link in this thread, but I think it has gone dead).

[Larry64]

Got it back together. Can't for the life of me figure out what I finally did different. All's well that ends well. Thanks for the input.
Larry

[jocko]

Glad to hear that Larry - enjoy the T5!

[BAT]

HERE is a link to download the T-5 service manual.

Now if only I could figure out what the correct bell housing is to mount my WC T-5 (out of a Camaro) with a Hydro clutch to get my shifter straight! Already have the S-10 tail shaft.

[brokenspoke]

Originally Posted by BAT

HERE is a link to download the T-5 service manual.

Now if only I could figure out what the correct bell housing is to mount my WC T-5 (out of a Camaro) with a Hydro clutch to get my shifter straight! Already have the S-10 tail shaft.

Use the one that came in your truck

[jocko]

thx for posting the link BAT. I agree with brokenspoke, use the one that came with your truck - it will orient the camaro trans "straight up" (i.e. you won't incur the frustrating camaro "tilt/twist") and you can route your hydraulic hoses through the hole where you will have removed the shifter rod and its boot. That is, if you HAVE to have hyd clutch, etc - it is not required at all, you can use the factory stuff and that saves a lot of headache. But, if heart set on the hyd release bearing, etc, then you can still use the stock bell.

One more note - if you use a stock bell - you must use an S10 shifter (both are straight)
if you use a (new) camaro bell for some reason - you must use a camaro shifter (both are bent, opposite directions - so that the stick still comes up straight).

[66redw/white]

jocko i just gotta say i finally got to drive my truck with the t5 swap. fantastic write up again. im really diggin on this 5 speed!

[RdoubleU]

Hoping Jocko and the experienced others can chime in and help clarify some things for me:

I have a 1968 C10 with a 3 speed Saginaw column shift 250 I6

Gear ratio is 3.42 with 29" Tall Tire

I am in the same debate with myself as I have seen across Jocko's numerous posts and research threads: To Go T5 vs TKO 500/600

Regarding the T5: I have only been able to locate the S10 T5's that are Non-WC and have the below gearing
1352-201 GM 1990 S-Truck P 1st-4.03 2.37 1.49 1.00 5th-0.86

I am concerned that low of a 1st gear will just disappoint me and be almost useless - Anyone have any comment with this low first gear or the 3.76 options usability

OD @ 70 I should be in the ball park of 2300-2500 (Which I have read the 250 operating range you want to shoot for is 2000-3000) Does this seem like a good area to be in?

I also have some additional questions about the parts needed for the T5:
- What bellhousing hole diameter should the 1968 model truck have?
- is it the 4.686" dia index ring or the 5.125" index ring on a 250

- Flywheel: You keep and use the stock flywheel for your truck?

- Clutch / Pressure Plate / Throwout bearing: I'm alittle confused on these parts I have seen the mention for Astro Van clutch in multiple threads on here and the HAMB
Jocko recommends using the entire Astro kit for a V8 flywheel
Will this same situation apply for the 250 I6 flywheel
Or is it the other situation where I should go with the kit from the vehicle the transmission came from

Spacer Plate and Bearing Retainer Mods: I understand the need for these
- I was planning on Hot Rod Works spacer plate depending on what diameter bellhousing I have
- http://www.hotrodworks.com/catalog/i...1983-cars.html

I am really trying to debate whether i should move forward with the S10 T5 or go ahead and invest in the TKO and the future upgrade possibility.

The 250 is a strong motor and I plan on keeping it, but eventually ( i dont know when) down the road I think i would upgrade to a LS but that part is not top priority on the build list

Jocko Mentions he has about $1k in his swap vs the $3k mark for a TKO
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=473871

Getting alittle intimidated and lost in all the small details

[jeep534]

I Have a 1986 chevy LWB pickup with a 3 speed manual. It was originally a V6 and it has a hydraulic clutch with an external slave and fork. It has a tired 350 2barell in it now, compliments of the previous owner. I was told the 6 had some sort of mechanical failure. The idea of moving to a floor shift and getting a highway friendly gear seems like a good idea to me. This is my parts, building materials, running, hauling truck. so I don't want it to be down for more than a week or two. Preferably do the swap in a weekend. I looked at the TKO600 5 speed but 3000 is a little steep. I t is just a half ton pickup. I have not seen anybody talking about swapping transmissions in these square bodied trucks.

I guess I need to start shopping for a transmission.

archie =) =) =)

[silversnail86]

Originally Posted by jeep534

I Have a 1986 chevy LWB pickup with a 3 speed manual. It was originally a V6 and it has a hydraulic clutch with an external slave and fork. It has a tired 350 2barell in it now, compliments of the previous owner. I was told the 6 had some sort of mechanical failure. The idea of moving to a floor shift and getting a highway friendly gear seems like a good idea to me. This is my parts, building materials, running, hauling truck. so I don't want it to be down for more than a week or two. Preferably do the swap in a weekend. I looked at the TKO600 5 speed but 3000 is a little steep. I t is just a half ton pickup. I have not seen anybody talking about swapping transmissions in these square bodied trucks.

I guess I need to start shopping for a transmission.

archie =) =) =)

Hey Archie, I put a NWC t5 into my 86 LWB although mine was originally an auto. That just means you have a headstart. I hacked my trans up, was so much easier and less costly. All you should have to do is cut the throwout bearing retainer, input shaft, and change out the clutch for a 14 spline. I had to grind the clutch disk down where the splines are cause the clutch would not disengage. It took me 2 days while I was working. I took over a bay at the lube shop where I work and worked on it when there were no customers.

Also, my truck is about 330 hp and 400 lb/ft at the crank. I have had zero issues with the trans holding up. I kick the crap out of this thing on a regular basis, I should say I only have a open diff though. I have had mine in since September and I love it. My t5 is a 3.76 1st gear and it goes great with my 2.73 rear end. Runs about 1750 at 75 MPH. Also I used a large hole bellhousing. Keep in mind if you cant find the smaller hole bell that these trannies are cheap, if you pay more than 300 you got bent over and no reach around, so who cares if it wears out at 20k instead of 150k.
Good luck Buddy!