1972 SWB Build

[beaterku]

Spent some time yesterday working on the old girl. All of the brake lines are more or less installed. I just need to get some new unions and a tee and a few other parts. The booster/master as also fit up. I still need to bench bleed the master, but I am waiting to sort all of the brake lines first. I installed a ECE trans crossmember to help with driveshaft clearance. Getting closer...

We also bought the Eastwood brake line flaring tool. Man this thing is nice! Pictured below is the 5th flare I did with it. Perfect!

You Tube

[beaterku]

Spent some time out in the shop yesterday. I completely forgot to install the front sway bar. I had packed the box away. Opps. So I installed that and started in on modifying my stainless steel Inline Tube brake line kit. I made a short line that goes from the main line to the rear to the flex line down to the pumpkin. I flipped the tee around on the pumpkin do that it runs forwards instead of back like a typical 72. Since my crossmember is from a 69, it did not have provisions for the line like a typical 72. That went smoothly.

I started in on shortening the rear lines since I am running disc brakes out back. I cut them and started to flare them.... This is when it went south. I tried 3 times to flare the 3/16" line, and every time on the second process forming the flare, the material tore. It was a real head scratcher. I called Inline and they said there shouldn't be a problem using the flaring tool I have and gave me some pointers. Still didn't work. I talked to a family friend and he said that he has never been able to flare 3/16" stainless without tearing and he has the high $$$ Mastercool flaring tool. That made me feel a little better. The Eastwood tool had no problem with the 1/4" stainless line. Must be too much for the smaller 3/16". I was really hopping to do the whole system in stainless. I am going to pick up some nickel copper lines and make my own. They will be covered in the stainless spring so they will not stick out too much. That's how it goes sometimes.

I didn't do anything with the lines going to the prop valve yet. I had to order a 7/16 to 3/8 inverted flare adapter to adapter the rear line to the Wilwood prop valve. Once that is hear, I can figure out the exactly length it needs to be.

You Tube

[mcbassin]

Looks great, very clean work!

[beaterku]

Originally Posted by mcbassin

Looks great, very clean work!

Thanks!

I have come to a crossroads... I went to put the headers back on the truck so that I could get it back on the road for a few months before winter comes. They don't fit wit the new Ridetech suspension. Doh... My initial reaction was to scrounge up some cast manifolds and make it work for a few months. I borrowed a couple different styles from a buddy to see what would work. I was talking with my wife about the situation and she drops a bomb. She gently reminds me that #3 is due right after the first of the year and that time is going to be really limited and she doesn't want me out in the garage all of the time leaving her with my two wild boys and the newborn. She says "why don't you just go ahead and buy the LS and swap it in now while you have time instead of bandaiding it so you can drive it for a couple of months and then try to find time to swap the engine in the spring?" I'm pretty sure I was smiling like a school boy from ear to ear and said okie dokie dear.

So, plans have now changed. I am going to tiddy up everything from the rear end conversion, suspension upgrade and steering upgrade and prepare to pull the old 350/400 combo out. I have an 03 LQ4 that I bought a few years back that needs a rebuild and an 04 4l80E sitting on the shelf. In the interest of time, I am going to sell them off as well as the 350/400 combo and pickup a complete dropout LS setup. I have found a couple of yards semi close to me, American Pickup in Arkansas (board sponsor) and Sam's Riverside in Des Moines that have what I am looking for. I want to stay with a 6L, but am open to a newer 5.3. Must have a 4l80e or 6l90e. I am not messing around with a 60e. Now the hunt is on for the lowest mileage setup I can afford.

The big items left to purchase:

• Engine/Trans
• Driveshaft - local shop
• Rad - Thinking RND or Entropy. Need to dig into these
• Fuel Tank - Going with a Boyds
• Gauges - Going with Dakota HDX or RDX. Leaning towards RDX
• Aftermarket standalone harness. PSI/Speartech/Current performance. Haven't decided yet. May send off the harness to get reworked as well.
• Exhaust of some sort to start with. Thinking Magnaflow since it come with a nice x-pipe. Only save a few bucks trying to piece together a builder kit and mufflers. Possible the flowmaster kit. Neightbor has it on a truck and it sounds good.

There are lots of nickle and dime pieces as well.

Items to sell:

• 2003 6.0 LQ4 from a Denali
• 2004 4L80e, 141K miles
• 1970's era 350
• 1970's era TH400

Anyway, here is the video from last weekend. Kind of a bummer, but opened up a big door!

You Tube

[knomadd]

Wow, what a great wife you have! Not too often will a wife tell the husband to go spend more money...

All joking aside, you might want to consider the 6L80 over the 6L90 if you're going the 6-speed route. They're basically the same, but the 6L90 is a little heavier duty and only comes with (as of about a year ago) either a 1410 or 1450 u-joint in slip yoke form. The trans slip yoke on my 6L90 is a 1410 and has a "conversion" u-joint on it to mate a 1410 to a 1350 at the trans end. If you aren't familiar with it, a 1310 was standard on these trucks (or at least my C10). 1350s are a typical upgrade for a performance build. 1400 series u-joints are typically for 1 ton and above vehicles. Or so I'm told.

When I went to order my driveshaft, I had a few places tell me they don't have the equipment to work on the 6 speed transmissions. I found one in San Antonio, Texas (not to far from me) that was able to build me a 3.5" aluminum shaft for this. Check them out: http://www.driveshaftspecialist.com/ I'm sure there are others that can do it, and if you end up with the CV joint type mount, this might not be an issue at all.

[beaterku]

Originally Posted by knomadd

Wow, what a great wife you have! Not too often will a wife tell the husband to go spend more money...

All joking aside, you might want to consider the 6L80 over the 6L90 if you're going the 6-speed route. They're basically the same, but the 6L90 is a little heavier duty and only comes with (as of about a year ago) either a 1410 or 1450 u-joint in slip yoke form. The trans slip yoke on my 6L90 is a 1410 and has a "conversion" u-joint on it to mate a 1410 to a 1350 at the trans end. If you aren't familiar with it, a 1310 was standard on these trucks (or at least my C10). 1350s are a typical upgrade for a performance build. 1400 series u-joints are typically for 1 ton and above vehicles. Or so I'm told.

When I went to order my driveshaft, I had a few places tell me they don't have the equipment to work on the 6 speed transmissions. I found one in San Antonio, Texas (not to far from me) that was able to build me a 3.5" aluminum shaft for this. Check them out: http://www.driveshaftspecialist.com/ I'm sure there are others that can do it, and if you end up with the CV joint type mount, this might not be an issue at all.

Yeah, she doesn't ever ask questions. I feel obligated to tell her what I am doing but she doesn't seem to care.

That is very good info. I hadn't thought about that. Sure enough I looked it up and the 90e uses a 36 spline 1410. The rear end I just rebuilt has a 1310. The rear end that was in the truck when I bought it has a 1330. I have a conversion in there now, but that is a moot point with a new driveshaft. I wonder if they can make a driveshaft with a 1410 on the trans end and a 1310 on the rear end?

[knomadd]

From what a couple of driveshaft shops and the local hot rod shop told me, they need to match on the driveshaft. So if you run a 1410, I think it will only convert down to a 1350, not a 1310. So you'd have to find a 1310 to 1350 at the rear end. I don't know that they make a 1310 to 1350 conversion u-joint, but it would be worth looking into first. The shop I used to cut the driveshaft made it sound like the conversion u-joints weren't very common and I might want to buy an extra. I didn't because I'm fairly certain I'd lose it before I'd ever need it. But, still something to consider. Also, they did supply me with Spicer brand u-joints (good brand) so you might see if you can find a conversion u-joint from 1310 to 1350 before looking for a 6L90. Or consider having the pinion yoke changed to a 1350.

[beaterku]

That does make sense. Hrm. I will do some digging. Did a quick check,
Spicer makes a 1310 to 1350. I have a Spicer 1310 to 1330 in it now. I have not driven it though. I bet it has something to do with the outside dimension of the u-joints matching so you don't have any vibrations.

Good info. Thank you!

[beaterku]

I called my local driveshaft shop and this was their response. He said in the perfect world, it would be nice to swap the pinion yoke to a 1410, but since they don't make one, he said I can go 2 routes.

1) convert the 1410 to a 1350 with a conversion u-joint at the trans and swap out the pinion yoke to a 1350.

2) 1410 to 1410 on the trans side and 1310 to 1310 on the rear end side. He said the weak link with be the 1310 at the rear.

Since I literally just rebuilt the rear end, I am inclined to have a driveshaft made that doesn't require a conversion u-joints and just keep that in mind and no go launching on drag radials.

[knomadd]

If you do the conversion u-joints, it'll let you keep the driveshaft if you change the rearend later. But I see where you're going with it. If you keep the 1310 pinion yoke, you're really only limited by it, not the rest of the combo. You can always have a new driveshaft made if you change the rearend parts later.

I don't know what effect it has, but I've been told it's best to match the u-joint size on both ends of the driveshaft. I think they said it had something to do with balance and harmonics. It should also be on the same plane or alignment at both ends, not turned 90 degrees along the rotational axis. But, obviously it can be built anyway someone wants it. Personally, I wouldn't have a 1410 and 1310 u-joint on the driveshaft. I'd run the two conversion joints, but that's me. It'll work either way, but if...(this is a big IF for me since I don't really know what it would do) ...If you end up with driveline vibrations this would be my first suspect.

[beaterku]

Good points. I suppose I am getting ahead of myself. Depends on which trans I end up with. I like your thinking on the 1350 both ends with conversion joints. Leaves room for future changes.

Appreciate your input!

[beaterku]

I've take a break from the truck for the past few weeks. I wanted to spend time with the family this past labor day. I did manage a couple hours on Saturday morning to put the bed back on and get it off the lift. I have started prepping for pulling the motor and trans. Still trying to locate a suitable engine trans combo to buy. I have narrowed it down to a later model 6.0. I want to stay away from the E78 ecm, so I am going to have to do some digging. I am going to buy a standalone harness in the interest of time. No one seems to make a standalone for the E78. I've also been looking at L77 6.0's as well, but they have AFM so I would have to tear it down to disable that. Decisions, decisions...

You Tube

[Low Elco]

Call Kent Roberts at LKQ in KCK. 1-866 478 2164. Good guy. Tell him what its for and you want a "Good one" He found us an awesome one!

Also, 150tunes did me a great harness and tune, twice. Deals only in email, but a great value and product. Tell him Chip Chandler sent you. He can make anything talk to anything.


And come to the Truck Nats this weekend and have sausage with us!

http://alltrucknats.com/wp/schedule/

[beaterku]

Originally Posted by Low Elco

Call Kent Roberts at LKQ in KCK. 1-866 478 2164. Good guy. Tell him what its for and you want a "Good one" He found us an awesome one!

Also, 150tunes did me a great harness and tune, twice. Deals only in email, but a great value and product. Tell him Chip Chandler sent you. He can make anything talk to anything.


And come to the Truck Nats this weekend and have sausage with us!

http://alltrucknats.com/wp/schedule/

Appreciate the contact! I'll give him a call this afternoon. I spoke with 150tunes a few years back and he is very knowledgeable.

I might try to make it out on Saturday. I've got the Shawnee show on Sunday with my pops.

[knomadd]

Originally Posted by beaterku

Still trying to locate a suitable engine trans combo to buy. I have narrowed it down to a later model 6.0. I want to stay away from the E78 ecm, so I am going to have to do some digging. I am going to buy a standalone harness in the interest of time. No one seems to make a standalone for the E78. I've also been looking at L77 6.0's as well, but they have AFM so I would have to tear it down to disable that. Decisions, decisions...

I installed a 2016 L96 out of a 3500 Express van with the 6L90E trans and no AFM/DOD. It has VVT, which I kept so I could let the engine adjust to keep the power in the sweet spot. It uses the E78 ECM that you're trying to stay away from, BUT... I did find a company that would build you a custom harness for that computer. Look up Modern Vintage Systems on Instagram or Facebook. They can give you a quote of what something like that would cost. I don't remember what he told me since that was over a year ago.

I got a brand new harness from GM (mine was damaged by the freight company, so the seller put in a claim and got me a new harness) that I wound up cutting down on my own, so I don't have any experience with them. I have seen some of their work and it appears to be good quality stuff. A few other places I looked at told me I'd need to buy an E38 ECM from them to go with their harness in order for their stuff to work. That's an option still, but it wasn't going to work for me, since I had no idea if it would control my trans.

I say all of that just so you don't have to rule out the E78 ECM setups. It won't narrow your search so much, and you could find a great deal because so many are trying to avoid them too.

[beaterku]

Originally Posted by knomadd

I installed a 2016 L96 out of a 3500 Express van with the 6L90E trans and no AFM/DOD. It has VVT, which I kept so I could let the engine adjust to keep the power in the sweet spot. It uses the E78 ECM that you're trying to stay away from, BUT... I did find a company that would build you a custom harness for that computer. Look up Modern Vintage Systems on Instagram or Facebook. They can give you a quote of what something like that would cost. I don't remember what he told me since that was over a year ago.

I got a brand new harness from GM (mine was damaged by the freight company, so the seller put in a claim and got me a new harness) that I wound up cutting down on my own, so I don't have any experience with them. I have seen some of their work and it appears to be good quality stuff. A few other places I looked at told me I'd need to buy an E38 ECM from them to go with their harness in order for their stuff to work. That's an option still, but it wasn't going to work for me, since I had no idea if it would control my trans.

I say all of that just so you don't have to rule out the E78 ECM setups. It won't narrow your search so much, and you could find a great deal because so many are trying to avoid them too.

It seems hit and miss on what L96's come with the E78. Seems some have it while others don't. I've talked to a couple tuners in town and they are trying to steer me towards E38's. I think I am being too picky when it comes to miles, I am trying to find something with less than 50k miles. I think if I ease up to 75k or less I will be just fine. That opens a lot of doors as well.

I looked through some of your threads and am concerned about some of the anomalies with the E78. It doesn't control electric fans like the E38 correct? Are there any other quirks you have found?

EDIT:Just talked to the guy who is going to tune it for me and he said run, not walk, away from the E78. He said it was designed from the new LT motors and adapted to the LS motors. Said it's a nightmare to turn for cams, heads, intake, TB swaps etc...

[knomadd]

Well, I don't have a different cam, heads or intake swap, but I used a tuner out of San Antonio who uses HP Tuners (Nelson Performance). I have it at home too, but don't really know how to use it so I let him tune it. He was able to do everything I needed and has worked on the new LT motors for a friend of mine who recommended him to me. I think it completely depends on your tuner. Some are just affraid to touch it because they don't know about the LT motors, others are familiar with certain ECMs and prefer to stick with those. I have absolutely no problems with mine, but we'll see if it stays like that if I go with a bigger cam later.

Edit: I have headers, and a larger intake tube that messed with the MAF sensor. Took a bit of tuning to get the MAF tables right based on the larger tube diameter, but it all worked out fine. He even gave it a "performance tune" to up the power and run on premium fuel. I don't think it should be very difficult to tune all of those things into this ECM, but then again, I'm not the one doing it. Good luck!

Oh, and no, it doesn't control the fans. There is a setting in HP Tuners that my tuner turned on, but I don't have wires in my harness for it. I know this ECM is used on a few 4 cylinders that have fans in them, but I haven't tried to run it that way. I just use a Dakota Digital fan controller hooked up through my DD OBD-II BIM module for my gauges.

[beaterku]

Originally Posted by knomadd

Well, I don't have a different cam, heads or intake swap, but I used a tuner out of San Antonio who uses HP Tuners (Nelson Performance). I have it at home too, but don't really know how to use it so I let him tune it. He was able to do everything I needed and has worked on the new LT motors for a friend of mine who recommended him to me. I think it completely depends on your tuner. Some are just affraid to touch it because they don't know about the LT motors, others are familiar with certain ECMs and prefer to stick with those. I have absolutely no problems with mine, but we'll see if it stays like that if I go with a bigger cam later.

I agree 100%. I had planned on buying HP Tuners myself, but I am by no means qualified. My options are pretty limited around here. I unfortunately need to go with someone local so I'm stuck. I did some digging and you can convert an E78 controlled engine to E38 with a harness and ecm swap and reprogramming of the TCM, but it's $1500. A little steep for my wallet. I am going in all stock at the beginning, but am going to swap cams at some point.

[beaterku]

Originally Posted by knomadd

Edit: I have headers, and a larger intake tube that messed with the MAF sensor. Took a bit of tuning to get the MAF tables right based on the larger tube diameter, but it all worked out fine. He even gave it a "performance tune" to up the power and run on premium fuel. I don't think it should be very difficult to tune all of those things into this ECM, but then again, I'm not the one doing it. Good luck!

Oh, and no, it doesn't control the fans. There is a setting in HP Tuners that my tuner turned on, but I don't have wires in my harness for it. I know this ECM is used on a few 4 cylinders that have fans in them, but I haven't tried to run it that way. I just use a Dakota Digital fan controller hooked up through my DD OBD-II BIM module for my gauges.

Interesting idea on the DD fan controller. That's something to think about.

[beaterku]

Talking with a buddy this morning he says "you could have built the 6.0 you have sitting in your shop in the time you've been searching for a complete dropout" Got me thinking about just dropping the bottom end off at the shop to have it gone through, slapping some new heads and a cam in and calling it good. I've got a 4l80 sitting here as well. Might be money ahead.

Decisions...

[knomadd]

Originally Posted by beaterku

Talking with a buddy this morning he says "you could have built the 6.0 you have sitting in your shop in the time you've been searching for a complete dropout" Got me thinking about just dropping the bottom end off at the shop to have it gone through, slapping some new heads and a cam in and calling it good. I've got a 4l80 sitting here as well. Might be money ahead.

Decisions...

If I had one already, I would have gone this route too. That way you can build it the way you want and not worry about doing something later. Add your cam, heads (or head work) and intake, have the trans gone through and buy your harness. If you need a new ECM, get it from the guys building your harness or run an aftermarket system like one from Holley, FAST or MSD.

[beaterku]

Originally Posted by knomadd

If I had one already, I would have gone this route too. That way you can build it the way you want and not worry about doing something later. Add your cam, heads (or head work) and intake, have the trans gone through and buy your harness. If you need a new ECM, get it from the guys building your harness or run an aftermarket system like one from Holley, FAST or MSD.

I am leaning that way. I'm going to call my machine shop and see how backed up there are.

[beaterku]

The LQ4 is going to the machine shop tomorrow. I called and he was 2-3 months out. I was like whoa nelly. We chit chatted a bit and came to a deal.

So tonight I am going to strip it down to the bare block. He said if I did some of the work and took the rotating assembly out, he would hone, re-ring, new bearings (main, rod, cam) and reassembly in 4-6 weeks. Boom, done.

Still talking to my trans guy. Going to do a stock rebuild with a HD2 kit. Should be good for what I am looking for.

Finally, some progress!

Current Plan:
LQ4 bottom end to machine shop to have it gone through, re-ringed, new bearings and reassembled
317 heads to Texas speed to have them CNC'd and rebuilt
Texas Speed cam & valve springs TBD
4l80e to the shop to be rebuilt

Start Ordering Parts:
standalone harness. PSI
Boyds tank
guages



Items to sell:
1970's era 350
1970's era TH400

[beaterku]

Spend some time this past week stripping down the LS shortblock and taking it to the machine shop. Also pulled the 350/TH400 out. Going to drop the trans off tomorrow to have it gone though.

I am having second thoughts on the heads. I was going to send them to Texas Speed to have them CNC'd. I talked to a local head shop that does great work. $300 to strip them down, valve job and reassembly. TS is $750. Since I am staying with the lower compression LQ4 dished pistons, I am unsure if the CNC'd heads would be overkill. Thoughts?

You Tube

[beaterku]

Talked with Texas Speed yesterday. They assembled a pretty comprehensive quote for me consisting of the following:

CNC my 317 heads, deck and possibly mill a little to bump compression. Still not sure. Possible go with a thinner head gasket. Not sure. Going to talk to them some more about it
New seals, retainers, seats and PAC dual springs
224R 224/224 .600/.600 112LS and 110ICL cam
chromoly push rods
LS2 timing chain
GM oil pump
LS7 lifters
Gasket set with head bolts and crank bolt
Circle D 278 80e converter w/ 2600-2800 stall.

I priced it all out separate and they are about the same money as piecing it all togther. One stop shopping.

I am still waiting to hear back from an engine builder buddy of mine on a few items for his opinion. Hoping to have my heads off to them tomorrow.