Starting 1966 Factory Short Bed Build, Bagged, 383 Stroker and Muncie M20 4-Speed

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

Do those CPP tubular control arms move the spindle rearward even just a little? That would cause the interference. Is the pitman arm you got from POL an exact OEM replacement? Those aftermarket aluminum differential covers require a panhard bar with a jog in it. Someone makes one, I just don't remember who.

I believe CPP made one w/the bend to clear the finned alum covers.

As far as upgrading to POL's R&P set-up? After the issues noted thus far... I would have some concerns about any of their products until it's determined WTH is going on w/the current replacement parts.

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

Do those CPP tubular control arms move the spindle rearward even just a little? That would cause the interference. Is the pitman arm you got from POL an exact OEM replacement? Those aftermarket aluminum differential covers require a panhard bar with a jog in it. Someone makes one, I just don't remember who.

Awe, you know what, that may be it! I know that the arms do have an adjustment in them for the bagged issues that can come up with dropping it.
The Pitman arm is a direct replacement part.

I did though last night purchase the rack and pinion kit for POL. I really have wanted one but they always require frame cutting and rework and not that this would stop me, but the price was typically $1400.00 or more. This one is "Direct bolt on" and was only $900.00. I say only as if it was nothing, it is alot, but for correct steering, im in.

As for the bent arm, i did not know that. I may just look for that one.

Thanks CaptainFab!!!

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

I believe CPP made one w/the bend to clear the finned alum covers.

As far as upgrading to POL's R&P set-up? After the issues noted thus far... I would have some concerns about any of their products until it's determined WTH is going on w/the current replacement parts.

Well, I think CaptainFab hit a good one on the head. The CPP Tubular Arms i think adjust the spindle slightly and this may also have an effect after things are bolted up. But honestly, i think it is actually the pitman arm. I cannot get it all the way onto the shaft. I used a dam rattle gun, my extension and still it just stopped about an inch away from where i think it should be. With that said, i could get it there, use heat, use a larger breaker bar or a "helper" on the end of my breaker bar. Either way, i just frustrated with it honestly and maybe it was just enough for me to go ahead and pull the trigger on the rack.
Just as a note, the entire rebuild kit is from EBAY, the upper and lower arms and Spindle are from CPP, so it could be several factors here honestly I hate piece together parts from different company's on things like this. Its just like the diff cover. It will not fit without a bend in it, but the jack wagons that sell the cover do not tell you that!
Anyways, its just been a weekend. I am done with this Covid crap also...
Anyways, Seriously, Thank You to you and CaptainFab!! You two have been awesome help recently. There are alot of others that have helped also, but recently you two have been great, so Thanks again. God Bless

[88Stanger]

Well, as you and CaptainFab said, there is a bent arm, just for this and the bagged issue. Summit has it, so its now on order. LOL. Again, Thanks Scoti and CaptainFab.
Damn, i be selling alot of new stuff... lol

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 88Stanger

Well, I think CaptainFab hit a good one on the head. The CPP Tubular Arms i think adjust the spindle slightly and this may also have an effect after things are bolted up. But honestly, i think it is actually the pitman arm. I cannot get it all the way onto the shaft. I used a dam rattle gun, my extension and still it just stopped about an inch away from where i think it should be. With that said, i could get it there, use heat, use a larger breaker bar or a "helper" on the end of my breaker bar. Either way, i just frustrated with it honestly and maybe it was just enough for me to go ahead and pull the trigger on the rack.
Just as a note, the entire rebuild kit is from EBAY, the upper and lower arms and Spindle are from CPP, so it could be several factors here honestly I hate piece together parts from different company's on things like this. Its just like the diff cover. It will not fit without a bend in it, but the jack wagons that sell the cover do not tell you that!
Anyways, its just been a weekend. I am done with this Covid crap also...
Anyways, Seriously, Thank You to you and CaptainFab!! You two have been awesome help recently. There are alot of others that have helped also, but recently you two have been great, so Thanks again. God Bless

From what I've seen/read in articles, if anything the CPP lower arms should be shifted forward to provide the better Caster numbers.

[Modges'66]

WOW! Very nice build! Great work!
I am just checking in to see what's going on!
Just out of curiosity, earlier someone commented to flip the center steering link, and you said that you couldn't because the holes are tapered....but I am pretty sure that if you flipped it 180º end-for-end it might work, because the holes are offset from the centerline of the rod.
I am pretty sure that I did this once... But that is probably all behind you now...
Stay well!

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by Modges'66

WOW! Very nice build! Great work!
I am just checking in to see what's going on!
Just out of curiosity, earlier someone commented to flip the center steering link, and you said that you couldn't because the holes are tapered....but I am pretty sure that if you flipped it 180º end-for-end it might work, because the holes are offset from the centerline of the rod.
I am pretty sure that I did this once... But that is probably all behind you now...
Stay well!

I did try that, but the hole sizes are different for the pitman arm and idler arm. I appreciate your idea though, but, I did order a new rack and pinion setup

[88Stanger]

I have a few updates from this past weekend.

So, i was going to use CaptainFabs power steering conversion bracket which is actually awesome, but after some frustrations with what i bought for suspenson upgrades i decided that it is best if just went with Rack & Pinion. So, POL sells a complete bolt in kit with no major frame modifications required and works with Bags and lowered, so i went that direction. Pics of that to come.
Also, I had the stock Rear rebuilt completely, all new internals, new Posi, new 3:42 gears and then i got a nice aluminium cover. Well i did no know that if you do this and lower the truck alot (ie see c-notch and bags) that the standard adjustable trac arm will not work with the aftermarket cover! So, CPP sells a bent and longer arm that does work, so its on the way now, pics to come.
But with that all said, i got the front and rear roll bars in, both CPP.
Also, the frame brace has two mounting holes to select from, if you are lowering the truck alot, go with the set of holes towards the rear of the truck, not the front set, lesson learned here. But after adjusting that and mounting the trailing arms in the top holes on the frame brace, it lined up very well.

[88Stanger]

few more pics, the rear and front roll bars installed

[88Stanger]

couple more

[SCOTI]

What is your 'plan' for ride height (how far away from the top of the c-notch do you anticipate the axle tube will have)?

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

What is your 'plan' for ride height (how far away from the top of the c-notch do you anticipate the axle tube will have)?

Right now i anticipate it to be about 1.5 to 2 inches from the top of the C-Notch. I have bump stops that i think i can cut at a height that i want. My assumption is 2" at this point.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 88Stanger

Right now i anticipate it to be about 1.5 to 2 inches from the top of the C-Notch. I have bump stops that i think i can cut at a height that i want. My assumption is 2" at this point.

So.... You basically want the top of the axle tube to be at or very near the bottom of the original frame rail lip @ ride height?
Are you using the same size bags front & rear?

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

So.... You basically want the top of the axle tube to be at or very near the bottom of the original frame rail lip @ ride height?
Are you using the same size bags front & rear?

I would say that is close to where it would, yes.
At that point the bags are really deflated. fully deflated is with the top of the axle tube about 1" away from the top of the C-Notch. This would be sitting height, not driving height typically, maybe i should say not cruising height. Cruising height can be adjusted to what is comfortable.

The Bags are exactly the same size.

[88Stanger]

Scoti,
I assume you are asking in reference to maybe how the truck will sit at ride height? I sense a concern?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 88Stanger

Scoti,
I assume you are asking in reference to maybe how the truck will sit at ride height? I sense a concern?

Correct. The same size bags front & rear are not so much an issue. The installed height in the rear (bracket + bag) vs. what you're targeting for 'ride height' drop amount will possibly be the issue.

Those bags look like the standard C10 fronts (2600's/SS7's/Firestone 224c F6873) have about a 6" recommended ride height @ pressure. If/when you deviate from that recommended pressure, it impacts ride quality.

I ran that same size bag in the rear w/no bracket & it took only ~25psi to achieve my desired ride height (top of axle tube @ bottom of frame rail lip/approx. 2.5" from bottoming out on the c-notch). Now, I also had lowering blocks in the rear which should be a wash for your bag bracket since they prob both were similar in height. Below 30psi the ride was too bouncy & felt like it was basically too much for the shock.

You might want to set it up & verify dimensions. The smaller Dbl. Convoluted bag (2500/SS6's/255c F6781) are ~5" @ recommended ride height @ pressure (40-50psi likely). You get a much better ride quality w/the correct air pressure.

Food for thought. You sound like you weren't planning to go as low as mine was so you might be ok. I figure it's worth mentioning while you're still in the build stages.

A pic for reference . This was a bolt-in C-notched frame, bags directly bolted to the frame/Truck-Arm, & 1.5" blocks. I know it's a different year/body style but the chassis' are almost identical for the ride height concerns/comparisons....

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Correct. The same size bags front & rear are not so much an issue. The installed height in the rear (bracket + bag) vs. what you're targeting for 'ride height' drop amount will possibly be the issue.

Those bags look like the standard C10 fronts (2600's/SS7's/Firestone 224c F6873) have about a 6" recommended ride height @ pressure. If/when you deviate from that recommended pressure, it impacts ride quality.

I ran that same size bag in the rear w/no bracket & it took only ~25psi to achieve my desired ride height (top of axle tube @ bottom of frame rail lip/approx. 2.5" from bottoming out on the c-notch). Now, I also had lowering blocks in the rear which should be a wash for your bag bracket since they prob both were similar in height. Below 30psi the ride was too bouncy & felt like it was basically too much for the shock.

You might want to set it up & verify dimensions. The smaller Dbl. Convoluted bag (2500/SS6's/255c F6781) are ~5" @ recommended ride height @ pressure (40-50psi likely). You get a much better ride quality w/the correct air pressure.

Food for thought. You sound like you weren't planning to go as low as mine was so you might be ok. I figure it's worth mentioning while you're still in the build stages.

A pic for reference . This was a bolt-in C-notched frame, bags directly bolted to the frame/Truck-Arm, & 1.5" blocks. I know it's a different year/body style but the chassis' are almost identical for the ride height concerns/comparisons....

Scoti,
I so appreciate your comments and thoughts! That is such a great help to me. It allows me to understand what i can do if what i het is not enough. Thank you for your time here!

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 88Stanger

Scoti,
I so appreciate your comments and thoughts! That is such a great help to me. It allows me to understand what i can do if what i het is not enough. Thank you for your time here!

No problem. I would just make sure you can mount the smaller bag in the same set-up that way if it does seem it's necessary, you're already set-up for the task.

What brand/manufacturer are the bags?

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

No problem. I would just make sure you can mount the smaller bag in the same set-up that way if it does seem it's necessary, you're already set-up for the task.

What brand/manufacturer are the bags?

I am using EZ Air Ride full Deluxe kit for my C10

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 88Stanger

I am using EZ Air Ride full Deluxe kit for my C10

I know where you sourced it from. I don't know what brand parts they supply. I went back through & found an image that revealed the bag manufacturer (Air Lift)....

[SCOTI]

A quick Google search told me this:

Dominator 2600

Max height...…………………. 12.5"
Compressed height...……. 2.8"
Ride height...…..……………. 6-9"
Max diameter...…………….. 8"
Max load @ 100psi...……. 3055#
Air fitting size...……………. 1/2"
Top hardware size...…….. 3/8"-16
Bottom hardware size..... 3/8"-16
Mounting hole centers.... 2.75"


Dominator 2500

Max height...…………………. 10.5"
Compressed height...……. 2.8"
Ride height...…..……………. 5.5-7.5"
Max diameter...…………….. 7"
Max load @ 100psi...……. 2030#
Air fitting size...……………. 1/2"
Top hardware size...…….. 3/8"-16
Bottom hardware size..... 3/8"-16
Mounting hole centers.... 1.75"

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

A quick Google search told me this:

Dominator 2600

Max height...…………………. 12.5"
Compressed height...……. 2.8"
Ride height...…..……………. 6-9"
Max diameter...…………….. 8"
Max load @ 100psi...……. 3055#
Air fitting size...……………. 1/2"
Top hardware size...…….. 3/8"-16
Bottom hardware size..... 3/8"-16
Mounting hole centers.... 2.75"


Dominator 2500

Max height...…………………. 10.5"
Compressed height...……. 2.8"
Ride height...…..……………. 5.5-7.5"
Max diameter...…………….. 7"
Max load @ 100psi...……. 2030#
Air fitting size...……………. 1/2"
Top hardware size...…….. 3/8"-16
Bottom hardware size..... 3/8"-16
Mounting hole centers.... 1.75"

i just checked, they are 2600 series.
Thank you for doing this. I understand alot more now and i really get what you were talking about in the ride height vs other.
Surprise, this is my first air bag install. I really like the idea, been in air bag truck and loved it, and so here I go. lol.
Damn, i need to come visit you and buy you and your significant other one hell of a dinner and drinks! I really appreciate your time!!
Anyone reading this that is somewhat new to this site, this is what you can expect from not just Scoti, but there are others who will help you with things you never even knew about.
God Bless you my friend.
Im more excited now than ever to get back out there and work on it now. lol

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 88Stanger

i just checked, they are 2600 series.
Thank you for doing this. I understand alot more now and i really get what you were talking about in the ride height vs other.
Surprise, this is my first air bag install. I really like the idea, been in air bag truck and loved it, and so here I go. lol.
Damn, i need to come visit you and buy you and your significant other one hell of a dinner and drinks! I really appreciate your time!!
Anyone reading this that is somewhat new to this site, this is what you can expect from not just Scoti, but there are others who will help you with things you never even knew about.
God Bless you my friend.
Im more excited now than ever to get back out there and work on it now. lol

Again.... No problem.

To be honest, it gets even more confusing because all bags are not created equal. Some bags are inherently 'stiffer' vs. others. Some have bump stops where others don't. Some require fitting adapters vs. threading the fitting directly in place (less chances for air leaks).

I went back & looked @ your set-up again. I missed that you do have lowering blocks as it's assembled now. You definitely will need to scrutinize the set-up if it doesn't ride to your satisfaction @ the height you desire. I recall mine only needed ~25psi for my desired ride height. At that pressure, it did not ride smooth & was overworking the shocks. Once it was around 40psi, the ride was much better/smoother but then the rear was prob ~2" higher than what I wanted (to match the static front drop).

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Again.... No problem.

To be honest, it gets even more confusing because all bags are not created equal. Some bags are inherently 'stiffer' vs. others. Some have bump stops where others don't. Some require fitting adapters vs. threading the fitting directly in place (less chances for air leaks).

I went back & looked @ your set-up again. I missed that you do have lowering blocks as it's assembled now. You definitely will need to scrutinize the set-up if it doesn't ride to your satisfaction @ the height you desire. I recall mine only needed ~25psi for my desired ride height. At that pressure, it did not ride smooth & was overworking the shocks. Once it was around 40psi, the ride was much better/smoother but then the rear was prob ~2" higher than what I wanted (to match the static front drop).

I just measured and if the bags are at 5" height, that puts the top of the axle tube at the bottom of the frame approx. So this may not be bad, but only time will tell. At least now i know what i will need to do to get it where i want it.
I can adjust all for bags independently. I really wanted this ability, not that is matters much, but i like the idea.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 88Stanger

I just measured and if the bags are at 5" height, that puts the top of the axle tube at the bottom of the frame approx. So this may not be bad, but only time will tell. At least now i know what i will need to do to get it where i want it.
I can adjust all for bags independently. I really wanted this ability, not that is matters much, but i like the idea.

Oh yeah, you definitely want to be able to adjust/isolate each corner independently.

Since you have lowering blocks, OE style T/A's & larger diameter wheels, you can always do a taller block if you need more psi in the bag for ride quality. The taller block adds more drop so you add more air psi to get things back to where you were w/a shorter block.

It's not recommended on smaller diameter wheels because of Scrub-Line concerns but you should be ok since you're not using 15's/stock steel wheels.