Make it handle

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by BLK2K2SILVY

Im in for your first production run!

Ha, spiindles be very very expensive to make

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Alright so is the spindle the only place to change Ackerman?
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[robnolimit]

that's about it, wheelbase, width of the lower ball joints, and placement of the outer tie rod ends. Those are the three factors. - and of the three, outer TRE is the easyone to fix.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

So what width of the lower ball joints?

Maybe just maybe you or Nate at porter built may be able to do Ackerman corrected knuckles? Assuming you either have or are provided a front frame clip for mock up?

I don't have the proper welding equipment or your chassis knowlage other wise I would be cutting away and going all mad scientist in this haha
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[robnolimit]

Race Report - Nashville GoodGuys 7th Nashville Nationals - good weather, great people, and your in Nashville, how can it be bad. Trucks were the talk of the autocross and the show as word spread. Setting the pace overall was Brian Finch in his 2nd gen Camaro, with a 33.764 (for the win in Street Machine) followed closely by Detroit Speed's new test 66 mustang at 33.872 (winner in the Vendor class) Two trucks fought all weekend for the top truck spot, going to Brian Finch in Mark Turners 66 C-10 with a 33.981 (winner in the Truck class and 3rd overall) With the Summers and Sons 72 C-10 running 34.388, a close second and fourth overall. Donny Freise won the Street Rod class, and only a handfull of others ran faster than 36 seconds, including the new RideTech 33, the 48hour Camaro, and Jimmy Days new AMX. Kevin Bapst battled brake issues and still ran competetive laps. Kevin is running our new C-10 rack kit, and said the steering was "way better". Greg Schnieder (Ride Tech) ran his freshened up 67 C-10 and very unfortunately hit the side curbing and bent the frame. He had driving the truck from Jasper down to Nashville, and said it drove great. Luckily no one was injured. Finch offered a bare frame, and others offered up parts to help rebuild it. - great people in our hobby. During an interview with Chad Reynolds (BangShift.com) about the growth of trucks in autocross, things got out of hand for a moment, but I can asure you, despite the rumors, that there were no flying fists. We'll settle things up in Columbus.

[sick7seven]

howdy. just read the whole tred front to back. lots to take in lots of info.
glad to see someone willing to educate. suspesion is so important in the overal performance of any vehicle. give me the best suspension available over the best engine.(if you cant handle it you cant drive it!!, told to me by my father after i hit a pole with his truck when i was 16)

can anyone tell me if the front springs from a 78' c10 also fit a 67' c10
the previous owner of my truck had done a crossmember swap. and im looking to get a lowering "kit". but if there not the same ill have to buy front and rear parts seperately.

2" front springs
2.5" front spindles
4" rear springs
no blocks needed(building new trailing arms gonna build drop into them
c-notch rear
box and cross brace frame
1.1/4" swaybar front
1.1/8 sway bar rear
custom trailing arm mount and cross brace
shave front crossmember and plate it for more clearance
lower and set back engine
SBC vortec/w powerglide, 4.11:1 rear LSD

think itll work

cant wait to put it all together.

gonna tear it down and make her handle. thatll make poppy proud


any feed back would be greatly appreciated

[68GMCCustom]

cruising with a powerglide and 4.11's won't be much fun on the highway, or fuel efficient...but if the trucks being built for racing who cares.

If you're stuck on that combo and will be cruising or trailering with it, you might want an overdrive. Like Gear Vendors.

[robnolimit]

I'd agree with the glide issues. everything else sounds good. Transmissions can be a big deal when it comes to driving. think about an overdrive 700 or an L465

[sick7seven]

thinking about overdrive unit (powerglide works, it aint broke yet)
yes its mostly for back road cruising 60-100kmh but intend to do alitlle racing to. how complicated is it to hook up OD.unit, dont like 700r4 blown up way to many and rebuilding gets expensive(bloody sunshells and sprags).

[sick7seven]

what would my rpm be @80kmh with 3.73:1 rear and powerglide no OD.unit?
just thinking 4.11:1 probably be a little screamer but no fun to tour.
4.11:1 is the rear already in it,(but u dont mind spending money to make it more fun to drive.

[tubbedII]

You need to know your tire height in order to find the RPM, but with a 27" tire, 3.73s @ 50 MPH (about 80 KMH) you'd be at about 2400 RPM, with 4.11s it'd be a little over 2600.

I used Ring & Pinion's Calculator to get these, but it's by MPH.

[aggie91]

I hate to post this now, but I just recently saw this on another site.

Leaf Spring Sliders...I know that dirt track racers use them and the off roader/rock crawlers do too.

What do you think about using them in a street truck in place of the rear hanger? It would allow for a consistent ride height since there is no arc for movement of the spring eye. What other benifits could there be.

[sick7seven]

thanx for the info guys itll help make decisions in the long run

[hotroddr]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

that's about it, wheelbase, width of the lower ball joints, and placement of the outer tie rod ends. Those are the three factors. - and of the three, outer TRE is the easyone to fix.

You can also change the Ackerman by moving the steering rack/centerlink forward or backwards in the vehicle. This is usually difficult in a vehicle that is already complete, but if you are designing a replacement crossmember with rack and pinion steering, you could adjust the ackerman some.

This is a hard thing to visualize. I wish I had the ability to make a .gif to show the affect of moving the rack forwards or backwards. I spent a lot of time worrying about ackerman when designing the FSAE racecar in college. I talked to a lot of people, and ultimately came to the conclusion that most people live with the ackerman they have and tune the toe to compensate. I talked to many racers and came to the conclusion that most people didnt worry about it at all. In the end I gave up and left it parallel as opposed to ackerman, or reverse ackerman.

A vehicle that likes more Toe out could use more ackerman, a vehicle that likes more toe in could use less ackerman.

Borrowed from "Suspension Geometry and Computation" by John C. Dixon - ISBN 978-0-47051-021-6

[robnolimit]

great point. While this is a good way to tune and fix things, it is somewhat difficult for most to do. - more so than bolting on a spindle. Moving the inner TRE pivit point back on a stock truck could be done with a custom center link, but that would hit the OE crossmember. Rack conversions could take some advantage of this, but again, you run into the crossmember. Our Wide-Ride IFS uses this goemetry to get the best steering aproach angles, but we were able to start from scratch.

[robnolimit]

TECH TIP Ok lesson learned. I had made a panhard rod for the HellBoy out of 1 1/4" x .120 wall tubing, and it had a 20 deg bend in it to clear the torque arm. Last tuesday at AMP I bent it like a taco!! SO, bending a panhard rod more than 10 deg is going to create a big strain on it. To solve the problem I went to 1 3/8" x .188 wall. It's heavy, but it doesn't flex. food for thought.

[robnolimit]

How about Packages? I have a lot of questions about complete packages and or assemblies of parts. So, I'll put a few together for you guys. We are about to release our new C-10 WideRide IFS, but it wouldn't be fair not to include some other parts that have been proven to work well.

1) Semi stock. The best example of this can be seen on two trucks (green 68 and red 66) built by Mark Turner and Brian Finch. Both have ran at Goodguys events and put up good numbers. The combo is CPP arms, 1" drop springs, Dropped spindles, a spring and block in the rear to net 5 or 6" drop, long panhard bar and raised trailing arm mounts. Their success is in the swaybars (custom) really good adjustable shocks, and a rack and pinion steering set up. Also, Brian is pretty sharp. Disc brakes all around and good sticky tires. The parts cost is appx $4500+ (with OE style brakes. Finch is known for monster 14"stoppers)

2) The Hotchkis TVS. The bottom line here is it works. Mike Hickman and Rob Phillips have been very competetive and have very drivable trucks. In addition to this kit, you need dropped spindles, front and rear disk brakes and a bolt in C notch. There is also an upgrade avail for adjustable shocks. The net is a 4/6 drop. Total parts cost is appx $5800+

3) It is fair to mention some bolt in crossmember kits such as Porterbuilt. Originally these were designed for max drop, but I do know that Nate has been working on some more 'performance' oriented coil-over units. A big benefit with a new crossmember is the increased ground clearance. If you were in Nashville or saw the pictures, you know the damage that can be caused from the stock crossmember hanging down. As a pioneer of LOW trucks, Nate has a lot of experience here. There are also matching rear kits available. Here again, shocks, brakes, steering and sway bars can have a big influence on handling and pricing. Complete front and rear packages will run in the $5500+ range. Remember, these have a weight savings and gain ground clearance.

4) While not available until July 4th, our new WideRide C-10 IFS is also in the running. Standard WideRide's have ben around for over 15 yrs, with proven geometry and design. We have worked hard to bring that performance into the C-10 market. This bolt-in IFS is complete, hub to hub, including crossmember, a-arms, coil-overs, spindles, brakes, P/S rack, sway bar, and motor mounts. There is a net gain of 3" gound clearance, and it is over 100lbs lighter than stock. The net drop is appx 5". and the cost is $2950. As of yet, we are still working on a complete rear package. For now, We have our Fat-Bar 4-bar with coil-overs, and a bolt-in notch at appx $1270 or, you can match the front to a conventional rear set up with blocks, springs, long panhard bar, swaybar, and good shocks. Don't forget to raise the front mounts. appx $829. To be fair we would need to add rear disk brakes for around $800. Total packages will run from $4500 to $5100.

I am hoping to show that there is more than one way to do it right. And, that you may be able to use some parts you already have. Or, you can sell off parts and update. Again I will say that shocks, brakes and tires are very important, and are usually over looked. I hope this helps, and if you have any other combo's, thoughts or information, post it up for everyone.

[69gmcc10]

You have talked about tires before and when you did it was really geared towards sticking to the track. We know you like the 18” wheel and a 28”-29” tire, but what recommendations do you have for rubber on a daily driver that will stick well and won’t wear out real fast? Can you give us some recommendations in the information you look for in tires and different applications?

[robnolimit]

When it comes to tires, grip vs lifespan is a direct tradeoff. The Nitto NT-05 and the Falken 615 are really sticky in the 200 treadwear range - but, 3 to 5 thousand miles is it. Next up, the BF Goodrich KDW, 300 treadwear these will go 10k miles, unless your me. They grip good and the lifespan is OK. Nitto 555 is also good. Not too expensive, 15k lifespan. Hold on, will these tires last longer? yes! But, not if you drive the piss out of your truck. lets be realistic.

[Portmod7]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

2) The Hotchkis TVS. In addition to this kit, you need dropped spindles and a bolt in C notch.

if you have any other information, post it up for everyone.

I'm not sure if they've changed anything since I bought mine, BUT, my TVS kit is a 4"/6" drop (all in the springs) without spindles, 4.5" in the front if you remove some spacers below the LCA spring cups. Also, Hotchkis does not require that a C-notch be used with this kit. I haven't driven mine yet, and I have my doubts about not needing a notch on a 6" drop, but according to Hotchkis it is not needed.

You will however need a set of stock-height 73-87 spindles to make use of the included ball joints and intended front end geometry.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by Portmod7

I'm not sure if they've changed anything since I bought mine, BUT, my TVS kit is a 4"/6" drop (all in the springs) without spindles, 4.5" in the front if you remove some spacers below the LCA spring cups. Also, Hotchkis does not require that a C-notch be used with this kit. I haven't driven mine yet, and I have my doubts about not needing a notch on a 6" drop, but according to Hotchkis it is not needed.

You will however need a set of stock-height 73-87 spindles to make use of the included ball joints and intended front end geometry.

See, you guys are smarter than me. Or at least not as lazy. So, I looked up the Hotchkis kit online, and my understanding was incorrect. But, now I know more about it. So, I looked it up on line. This kit uses stock hieght spindles, 73-87 C-10, and all the drop is from the springs. list price on the TVS is $5693.95 - from Hotchkis web site.

[Mike Bradbury]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

TECH TIP Ok lesson learned. I had made a panhard rod for the HellBoy out of 1 1/4" x .120 wall tubing, and it had a 20 deg bend in it to clear the torque arm. Last tuesday at AMP I bent it like a taco!! SO, bending a panhard rod more than 10 deg is going to create a big strain on it. To solve the problem I went to 1 3/8" x .188 wall. It's heavy, but it doesn't flex. food for thought.

It would be interesting to mount your GoPro camera under hell boy to see if the enlarged panhard bar flexes at all. I know you say it did not bend but that doesn't mean it does not flex. I would imagine even a litle bit will have some performance effects. There is flex and then there is yeild, steel will bend quite a bit before it yields, Chromolly has a 25% spring back rate, not sure what DOM is.

[Portmod7]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

See, you guys are smarter than me. Or at least not as lazy. So, I looked up the Hotchkis kit online, and my understanding was incorrect. But, now I know more about it. So, I looked it up on line. This kit uses stock hieght spindles, 73-87 C-10, and all the drop is from the springs. list price on the TVS is $5693.95 - from Hotchkis web site.

I had an unfair advantage, I had to do a lot of research to figure out what to spend my money on. I will say that right now I am a little disappointed that these coil-over crossmember kits that are coming out were not out when I decided on Hotchkis. Thought about building my own, but I didn't want to add that much time to my project, which has already taken too long. The aftermarket for these trucks is headed in a really cool direction right now. So glad suspension kits aren't "all show and no go" anymore!

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

It would be interesting to mount your GoPro camera under hell boy to see if the enlarged panhard bar flexes at all. I know you say it did not bend but that doesn't mean it does not flex. I would imagine even a litle bit will have some performance effects. There is flex and then there is yeild, steel will bend quite a bit before it yields, Chromolly has a 25% spring back rate, not sure what DOM is.

We've run go-pro's to watch the suspension on race cars before, it is AMAZING how much stuff flexes and moves, even stuff you think shouldn't.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

My alignment now. Going around corners this thing keeps the front planted no matter what. I cant get the front end to lose grip yet. Not to mention with the slip and slide bench seat and the belt cut off my steering pump I'm putting a lot of effort int keeping my @$$ in the drivers seat and not pinned on the drivers or passengers doors haha! Right now the rear cant keep the grip and it feels like the rear lifts from what seems like a lot of body roll

I have some theories on my body roll 1. My front sway bar is on rubber bushings 2. Body is mounted on rubber so I'm sure that our frames made out of twizzler flex a lot 3. I figured out on the highway I need a panhard! I can sway the rear a whole foot just turning the rear back and forth. I want to try a hotchkiss track bar and get the low roll.center. 4. I have no rear swaybar

[djw32]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

How about Packages? I have a lot of questions about complete packages and or assemblies of parts. So, I'll put a few together for you guys. We are about to release our new C-10 WideRide IFS, but it wouldn't be fair not to include some other parts that have been proven to work well.

1) Semi stock. The best example of this can be seen on two trucks (green 68 and red 66) built by Mark Turner and Brian Finch. Both have ran at Goodguys events and put up good numbers. The combo is CPP arms, 1" drop springs, Dropped spindles, a spring and block in the rear to net 5 or 6" drop, long panhard bar and raised trailing arm mounts. Their success is in the swaybars (custom) really good adjustable shocks, and a rack and pinion steering set up. Also, Brian is pretty sharp. Disc brakes all around and good sticky tires. The parts cost is appx $4500+ (with OE style brakes. Finch is known for monster 14"stoppers)

2) The Hotchkis TVS. The bottom line here is it works. Mike Hickman and Rob Phillips have been very competetive and have very drivable trucks. In addition to this kit, you need dropped spindles, front and rear disk brakes and a bolt in C notch. There is also an upgrade avail for adjustable shocks. The net is a 4/6 drop. Total parts cost is appx $5800+

3) It is fair to mention some bolt in crossmember kits such as Porterbuilt. Originally these were designed for max drop, but I do know that Nate has been working on some more 'performance' oriented coil-over units. A big benefit with a new crossmember is the increased ground clearance. If you were in Nashville or saw the pictures, you know the damage that can be caused from the stock crossmember hanging down. As a pioneer of LOW trucks, Nate has a lot of experience here. There are also matching rear kits available. Here again, shocks, brakes, steering and sway bars can have a big influence on handling and pricing. Complete front and rear packages will run in the $5500+ range. Remember, these have a weight savings and gain ground clearance.

4) While not available until July 4th, our new WideRide C-10 IFS is also in the running. Standard WideRide's have ben around for over 15 yrs, with proven geometry and design. We have worked hard to bring that performance into the C-10 market. This bolt-in IFS is complete, hub to hub, including crossmember, a-arms, coil-overs, spindles, brakes, P/S rack, sway bar, and motor mounts. There is a net gain of 3" gound clearance, and it is over 100lbs lighter than stock. The net drop is appx 5". and the cost is $2950. As of yet, we are still working on a complete rear package. For now, We have our Fat-Bar 4-bar with coil-overs, and a bolt-in notch at appx $1270 or, you can match the front to a conventional rear set up with blocks, springs, long panhard bar, swaybar, and good shocks. Don't forget to raise the front mounts. appx $829. To be fair we would need to add rear disk brakes for around $800. Total packages will run from $4500 to $5100.

I am hoping to show that there is more than one way to do it right. And, that you may be able to use some parts you already have. Or, you can sell off parts and update. Again I will say that shocks, brakes and tires are very important, and are usually over looked. I hope this helps, and if you have any other combo's, thoughts or information, post it up for everyone.

Do you have any pictures of mark turners/ brian finch dark green truck?
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