Markeb01 Build Thread

[markeb01]

Another marathon work day on the truck today. After spending several days of intensive study on the Lincoln and Ford fans, my right knee failed again reminding me how difficult it was going to be scrounging junk yard parts after all these years. So I started focusing again on items I could buy online, and found an Ebay vendor selling the Spal dual fans and accessories at a deep discount. The total cost ended up 40% less than Summit. I thought they must be used, or product returns, but the guy has a pretty good rating and the parts are brand new in the factory packaging.

Here’s what my old Flex-a-lite Black Magic fan looked like this morning:





It’s pretty obvious how little coverage the shroud was providing.

Here’s what the new dual fan looks like this evening:





It completely covers the radiator core and then some. I built a frame out of aluminum angle that allowed me to retain the Black Magic side brackets. I didn’t want to change them as my battery box has been extensively modified to use them and allow the 58 Impala radiator to fit. The only real problem I had with what I’ve accomplished so far was the sending unit for the fan. The instructions specifically state not to use sealant or Teflon tape as it is a grounding unit. The downside being, without sealant it would not stop leaking.

No amount of torque would eliminate the leakage. I was nearly bottomed out in the adapter and was worried I would snap the sender, or crack either the adapter or the cylinder head. After torqueing and checking every two minutes for over an hour, I gave up and got online. It seems the answer is to use sealant that is “Sensor Safe”. It turned out I have a tube of “Permatex Ultra Black” which is in fact “sensor safe”.

So I pulled out the sending unit and it was so tight the adapter came with it. Thank goodness the steel in the sender is harder than the adapter as half the threads in the adapter were galled and ready to strip. The damage doesn’t show up in this photo, but I’m posting it just to show what the adapter looks like. The upper half of the threads are flat on the nose like they were just about ready to strip out:



I was provided two adapters as each relay kit comes with one. So I used the 2nd adapter, and just in case the sealant does interfere, I only applied the sealant to the back half of the threads on both pieces. The nose on both pieces is still bare steel so I should be okay either way. And with the sealant – the sending unit is now leak free!

And for those not familiar with this particular Spal fan, the little rectangular segments above and below the fans are rubber flaps designed to blow open at freeway speeds, so the shroud doesn’t impede the flow of air when the fans aren’t running.

Unless I’ve overlooked something, all I have left tomorrow is wiring it up. It should be rather straight forward as the harnesses & relays are all wired up, and the instructions appear very simple. It’s almost certain I’ll need a bigger alternator as these puppies draw 37 amps at maximum power. Running the air conditioner and the fans together (kind of a necessity) isn’t going to leave much available for trinkets like headlights, etc. I’m really looking forward to seeing what these bad boys can do. The Black Magic fan has been dependable, but really hot weather always confirmed its limitations.

[markeb01]

Wrapped up the fan project today after an hour or two on the wiring. It was quite straight forward with no surprises. The temperature sensor activates the fans at 180 degrees, and turns them off at 160. I switched back to a Robertshaw 160 degree performance thermostat a couple of days ago, which works well with the Stewart’s water pump I’ve been running for a number of years. We took the truck for a test run and the temp gauge stayed right on 180 degrees. From inside the cab I could not hear the fans running. They are much quieter than the single fan they replaced.

The new fans have a more appealing sound to me, a different pitch than the old one, and about half as loud – like the difference between an old starter motor compared to one of the new permanent magnet versions. That’s one of the funny things about perspective, several people on the internet didn’t like this model dual setup as they thought it was too loud. I’m finding the sound emissions nearly ideal, especially compared to a mechanical fan (some of which can really scream under acceleration).

As we got home my wife picked up the mail, and stated “this must be your lucky day” as she held up a package from Vintage Air! My thermostat arrived, just as I finished one project and was ready to complete another one.

The smile didn’t last long though. One look at the thermostat confirmed it was the wrong type. The warranty item provided operates via a lever. The one on my evaporator uses a rotary knob. So I called them and left a message detailing the problem, but will have to wait until Tuesday for a resolution as they’re closed Monday for the holiday.

At least the fan system works perfectly allowing us to attend some more events!

[TJ's Chevy]

Looks good!

[markeb01]

Completed another minor project this afternoon. I originally dismissed the idea of adding a manual override switch for the electric fans, but the more I thought about it I realized it would be nice to have the ability to test the fans or have to the ability to run them should the sensor/sender ever fail.

So per the instructions I simply added a toggle switch on the left bottom of the dash in an existing hole, and spliced it into the grey sender wire. Now I can power the fans manually any time needed:

[Bomp]

That Sir is a very good idea. I've done the very same thing to my rides and it does have its advantages.
Well done.

[Ta2Don]

Thanks Again for the awesome write ups… another tip to add to my expanding file of stolen ideas...

Great Work Sir!!!

[markeb01]

We took a ride up to Newport this morning (about an hour away) and joined the annual Bob’s Car Show. What a blast, and a tremendous variety of cars that rarely attend Goodguys events. There were 4 of our trucks, all of which I’ve seen before. As can be seen in the first photo, the ground was a little uneven but there were shade trees everywhere:









There was enough variety to satisfy any taste – 4 speeds, big blocks, foreign cars, new and antique:









And as an added bonus, they had an outfit in attendance that photographed every car that came in, and offered the opportunity to have a magazine cover or special poster printed with the shot embedded. We picked this one:



We had it framed and matted, but my scanner bed isn’t big enough to capture the whole image. They also provided everyone with a certificate of appreciation for attending their charity car show. Much nicer than a refrigerator magnet that replaced the dash plaques years ago.

We had a great fun time. No pressure, lots of friendly people, and a couple of trinkets and souvenirs to remember the event.

[Ta2Don]

Looks like an Awesome time...

Thanks for taking us along...

[piratexpress1369a]

now that is cool

[likaroc13]

Sounds like you scored on the SPAL fans! Do you have info for the eBay user you bought from? Curious to know the dimensions of the fans & whether he has more available. Also, looks like a nice show you guys attended. I really dig that teal '63(?) with the scallops. I added your pics of it to my Flikr photo collection.

[markeb01]

Thanks for checking in guys.

The dual fans were purchased from Ebay seller univparts. The first link is to the fan, and the second link is the dual wiring harness. This includes two complete relay/harnesses and one sending unit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SPAL-DUA...item43c9ff7a8e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUAL-ELECTRI...item43cb49df16

Normally I don’t deal with sellers having a rating as low as 99.3, but I checked his feedback and many of the complaints were not legitimate. At his volume of sales there are going to be some complainers. I was just blown away at how cheap his prices were compared to anywhere else. Other than sending an email the shipment had been made, he provided no tracking information, but the shipment arrived in less than a week. I would certainly deal with him again.

Here’s a tech drawing of the fan assembly showing dimensions:



596 mm = 23.46” wide
413 mm = 16.25” tall
108 mm = 4.25” thick

It does draw 36 or 37 amps depending on which number you believe, but so far I’m not having any issues with my 65 amp alternator. I won’t know how well that works once the thermostat shows up for the air conditioner and I require maximum amps with the headlights on, etc. There’s a ton of information available on the Spal website, but it can be pretty tedious trying to find what you’re looking for.

I’m thrilled with the fan(s). They work perfectly and a very quiet from what I’m used to. As shown on the left end- of the tech drawing, the upper and lower line of rectangles are partially open indicating the path of free flow air at speed. All of those rectangles are rubber flaps that blow open, and are replaceable. Any other questions I can help with let me know.

[pdxhall]

Thanks for posting the pics of the show. I've missed most of the shows I usually attend during the summer and this gives me somewhat of a fix for my car show withdrawal.

[markeb01]

Glad to hear the car show pics are worth posting for someone other than myself! I like looking at the photos others post as well, but I’m not usually willing to go looking for them unless they are right in our forum.

Finally finished assembling GMC book #7, containing all the information for the Air Conditioning and Engine Fan installations.











The first section is everything for the A/C system and installation, including warranty paperwork, compressor details, and instructions for the air conditioning shop doing the purge and charge activities. Compressor bracket info from Alan Grove including belt dimensions and alignment details. The next section is fan related, covering everything from installation, dimensions, electrical demands, and wiring particulars.

Final entries include purchase, shipping and receipt details, and any store receipts for any unique part or labor costs directly related to the addition of the Vintage Air or Spal fans.

Having everything in one place sure makes it easy in the future if warranty or research questions come up.

[Ta2Don]

Serious Documentation...

[piratexpress1369a]

i like that ..what did you use for the labeling on the binders mark

[markeb01]

I start with binders that have transparent covering on the face and spine. For the spine labels I just print what I want in Excel, using one row/cell per character. I center the alignment to keep them straight up and down, and cut them into strips just barely wider than the letters. The larger binders are easy to insert the strips by hand.


The smallest binders can be challenging to slide the labels into the transparent spine pockets, so on some I have to use 90 - 110 pound paper to make them stiff enough to slide all the way in, and on some that are extremely tight I also use tweezers to get them to the bottom without wrinkling. It also helps to open the binder completely flat, creating the largest gap possible in the pocket.

[markeb01]

Well I’m after another improvement again. The front bumper bullets have been bothering me since I first put them on. I like the concept, but they seemed to high and close together in their original position. So I sliced up the driver’s side guide, made some more major modifications, and lowered it about 3”. Now instead of lowest portion of the bullet intersecting at the top of the bumper, the centerline of the bullet aligns with the top of the bumper.





Now I just have to modify the passenger bullet, strip both of them, and start over on the refinish and paint work. If I’m not happy with them this time I’ll scrap the whole project and reinstall stock guards. So far I’m thinking they look a lot better compared to being mounted too high up.

[Ta2Don]

Good Call on the adjustment to the Dagmars...

[likaroc13]

Great job on the documentation, & thanks for the details on the fan setup. I like the reconfiguration of the bumper bullets as well.

[rustbucket66]

I agree, the bullets interfere with the bar in the grill when they are so high. It looks way better with it lower down, in my humble opinion. I really like that hood ornament also, saw it close up in Spokane this year.

[markeb01]

Hot diggity we have air conditioning!! The 2nd replacement thermostat arrived today, and was at least the correct type with a rotary knob. It is the standard Vintage Air unit of this type, part number 11013-VUE for all Vintage Air systems needed this type & length of capillary tube. It looks like this:



I was concerned at first if it would fit, as it looks nothing like the one that came in the evaporator:



I needn’t have worried, the new one fit perfectly in place of the original. The only pitfall was it didn’t come with an attaching nut, and the one from the other thermostat didn’t fit. So I went through my stash of switch nuts, and out of about 100 of them I thankfully found two that fit. As soon as it was wired and back together, I turned it on and heard that reassuring snap of the compressor clutch!

Firing up the engine and A/C system resulted in immediate cold out blowing out of the evaporator. After the Old Air debacle years ago, and weeks of waiting to see if this was going to work, it’s wonderful to actually have a system that works.

I’m very pleased with the Vintage Air product, and their customer service, but I am going to write them a letter suggesting they replace these thermostats with their own version. I initially thought perhaps the capillary tube was damaged during shipment due to the loose directional louvers in the case, but very close inspection shows no physical damage, and no odor of ether which is usually present with a ruptured capillary tube.

I probably won’t get much more use out of it this year, but summer travel in the truck will surely be more inviting in the future.

[rustbucket66]

I recall you saying you had an Old Air Products unit in there before. What was your experience with it, and why did you change to Vintage Air?

[markeb01]

I can only speak regarding my own experience with Old Air, and it was not good. I bought their custom fit Hurricane system for my 1960 GMC back in 2000 and had nothing but trouble with it. It fit well and was reasonably easy to install, especially the firewall pass-thru and the receiver dryer lines. However:

1. I thought it looked crappy installed, as all the hoses drape under the dash connecting the evaporator to the under dash louvers. This may be the only photo I have showing it in the truck:



2. It never cooled off the cab of the truck adequately.

3. I live in the Northwest where it's cold 6-9 months of the year and the heater was completely ineffective. It wouldn't even defrost the windshield in the winter.

4. The flap diverter that controlled airflow between the windshield and floor was assembled incorrectly and "latched" in one position or the other and could not be budged without getting under the dash and forcing the lever by hand. After breaking the original dash controls, I utilized and t-handle choke cable until I pulled the handle off the cable. I discovered much later the rubber material had been incorrectly attached to the metal pivot parts causing it to catch inside the plastic housing.

5. The first motor assembly burned up and filled the car with smoke and electrical fire smell. To their credit, Old Air offered great customer service. They sent me a new motor assembly right away. About 2 months later the replacement motor did the same thing, and filled the cab with electrical smoke. At that point I was afraid my truck would be burned to the ground, so I pulled the Old Air fan assembly and after much research, installed a GM fan motor out of a Pontiac Fiero. No more fire problems after that.

6. Something in the system emitted a loud shrieking noise at certain rpms. I had 2 different A/C shops check it out and never could find the problem. (Years later I was told it might have been a bent compressor shaft). With no other place to turn for repair, the shrieking noise finally did me in and I tore the whole system out and threw it in the garbage. I didn’t want to sell the problems to anyone else.

Old Air must make good products, a lot of people buy their stuff, but other than great customer service my experience was a $1,000+ waste of money.

I never intended to add air conditioning again. Recently my wife suggested we should try again as we’re intending to travel more in the truck during the good weather, so that was the motivation for the Vintage Air installation.

[rustbucket66]

Wow, that was a lot of grief. I have an Old Air System in mine, and for the most part it has been ok. I like that they use the original heater control rather than having a separate control panel that you have to mount somewhere like Vintage Air has. I also like that it doesn't take all of the glove compartment away to clear the unit that Vintage Air does. Old Air's only takes a couple inches off the back and you still have most of the glove compartment for storage.
That being said, I had trouble getting mine up and running. It was hooked up as per instructions, but I couldn't get power from the relay to turn on the compressor clutch. After a few phone calls with the tech guy, I found that one wire that was supposed to be blue, was black, and two spades in the one connector were reversed, both were black. Switched them over and away it went. It is very hard to diagnose electrical problems, especially over the phone. Mine works ok for the most part, but I wish it got colder. It gets down to 40F when it starts up, then gets not so cold after the engine warms up. I put a heat gun on both sides of the valve that stops the hot coolant from going into the unit, and it is not closing it right off. I have heat on both sides of the valve, although less on the other side of the valve. I'm not sure if the unit is supposed to allow the coolant in when the control is set at cold or not. I will have to call the tech guy again to find out if maybe the valve isn't doing its job. I plan to insulate the firewall better this winter, to reduce the heat getting into the cab from the engine compartment. I'm also wondering if the door between the heat side and the cold side is sealing. I think the unit has enough capacity, but one of those two scenarios I just mentioned might be limiting how effective it is. One other thing I would like to change is that the heater motor on the low position blows to fast. I wish it blew at less speed on low.
Haven't tried the heater or defroster at all, it appears to work when I tested it, but haven't had a real cold day to try it. This unit draws it's air from inside the cab (recirculating), I wonder if Vintage Air's draws air from the cowl, and has a recirc position also.

[markeb01]

I’m glad yours is providing better service than mine did, but sounds like it has some issues too. If the hot engine coolant is leaking into the system during the summer because the internal valve doesn’t close it off completely, I’d suggest adding a separate shut off valve in the heater hose ahead of the firewall. Back in the 70’s when I worked at Peterbilt they did that on every truck. There are several types available at any parts store. The cheapest versions close off like a water faucet, although ball valves with a lever work easier. There are also cable and vacuum types, but since you only need to close the valve in summer and open it in winter, the mechanical type works just fine.

I also had a wiring issue with mine. The instructions were unclear, but the harness included I large diode that was turned the wrong direction (I found out much later). I always had to make sure the A/C system was turned off before killing the engine, or it would keep on running after the ignition was turned off until I shut off the A/C. I never knew exactly what the diode was for, but may have been part of the problem with the fan motors getting toasted.

I don’t know if the air/heat combo systems from Vintage Air offer fresh air intake of not. Since mine is an antique style knee freezer only, it is certainly the recirculating type. I tend to doubt they offer fresh air as part of their package, but the new Gen IV systems operate both the heat and air by microprocessor controls to keep the temperature at a specific setting like new cars. I think V/A is the only aftermarket manufacturer offering that feature.