NV4500 swap is underway

[silver7]

Subscribed. Great photos and detailed explanations. I'm following this closely since I may try the NV4500 myself.

[72lb4x4]

Is it easier/better to replace the pedal assembly that somehow connect a hydraulic setup to the existing clutch pedal?

I know where an 87 or so truck with a hydraulic clutch setup I can get the pedals and MC from, just wondering if its needed...

My truck is a 72 K10 with a 465 trans BTW.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by 72lb4x4

Is it easier/better to replace the pedal assembly that somehow connect a hydraulic setup to the existing clutch pedal?

I know where an 87 or so truck with a hydraulic clutch setup I can get the pedals and MC from, just wondering if its needed...

My truck is a 72 K10 with a 465 trans BTW.

I think so… at least on a square body style truck. Half the battle is figuring out exactly where to add the hydraulic clutch master cylinder rod pivot so the working angles come out right. For a square truck it is just easier to grab a set of hydro pedals and call it a day.

On your ’72 it would probably be easier to figure out the working angles on the original pedals than try to retrofit a set of 85-91 square body pedals as I am sure there probably quite a bit different. I bet someone here has done a hydraulic clutch in a '67-'72 that would know.

[duallyjams]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

I think so… at least on a square body style truck. Half the battle is figuring out exactly where to add the hydraulic clutch master cylinder rod pivot so the working angles come out right. For a square truck it is just easier to grab a set of hydro pedals and call it a day.

On your ’72 it would probably be easier to figure out the working angles on the original pedals than try to retrofit a set of 85-91 square body pedals as I am sure there probably quite a bit different. I bet someone here has done a hydraulic clutch in a '67-'72 that would know.

I am not 100% on this but I believe swing peddles from 63 to 72 are the same. The 63 had hydro clutch and a member on here captain fab make a adapter to run after market reservoir.

P.S. I keep rereading this thread, really alot of good info.

[72lb4x4]

Thanks for the responses! I'll have to reread it again myself as well as start researching hydro vs mechanical clutch actuation and the costs.

The truck has an NP208/SM465 setup from an 85 so I'm thinking of using the 208.

[duallyjams]

Originally Posted by 72lb4x4

Thanks for the responses! I'll have to reread it again myself as well as start researching hydro vs mechanical clutch actuation and the costs.

The truck has an NP208/SM465 setup from an 85 so I'm thinking of using the 208.

The story goes that the only difference between the 208 an 241 is that the 241 has a oil pump in it as GM was having trouble with the 208 running dry and burning up.

[DirtyLarry]

Just got back home from dropping the truck off at the Rhino shop. Still don’t have seats yet so it rode over on a trailer. I should have it back Saturday afternoon and the seats back from the upholstery shop tomorrow.

It drove on and off the trailer just fine and the brakes work great! Wow, what a noticeable difference going from vacuum to hydroboost. I stabbed the pedal backing down the driveway and it even locked up the tires. That is a first ever for this truck! It may have locked up the tires when it had ½ ton axles but I can’t remember what it drove like then. Heck that was 14 years ago. We’ll see how the brakes work once I get it on the road but I may not need to do a rear disk swap after all.

[snj8198]

It's going to be like an early Christmas for you.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by snj8198

It's going to be like an early Christmas for you.

or late one

[DirtyLarry]

The Rhino guy called at about 2 PM this afternoon and said the truck won’t be done until late tomorrow if not Monday morning. The upholstery guy only got one seat done and even it isn’t completely done as it is still missing the arm rests. I picked up the seat but have to take the driver’s seat back to him to finish up once I drive the truck back home from the Rhino shop. I swear, relying on other people is for the birds and exactly why I try to do all my own work….because you cannot rely on anybody to do what they promise when they promise it. Errr..

The good news is I sold the old SM465/NP205 today to two really nice guys that responded to my CL add and drove down from Conifer. I enjoyed chatting with them while they were here. That $475 helps offset the cost of the Rhino lining. Tonight I bought a new JVC stereo (with remote…whoo hoo!) and Rockford Fosgate speakers for big blue once she gets back home.

Speaking of the stereo, I almost had to kill and old man tonight in a Ford Stupid Duty coming back from the stereo store as he crossed a solid line as he aborted entry onto the I-25 ramp at Hwy 50 and damn near sideswiped our Tahoe. He had to be an inch way from hitting us! The reason why I got so worked up and was ready to throw chingasos with him it is because some chick driving with her head up her *** rear ended my wife and I in my wife’s new 2010 BMW 335Xi last weekend sending my wife to the hospital in an ambulance. She is fine but came out of it with a kink her neck and a headache that won’t let up. This all is on the heals of another idiot, who also wasn’t paying attention to what he was doing, rear-ended our Pontiac in Oct 2009 which is why we got the BMW in the first place (probably would have gotten another new Poncho had GM not been so stupid to kill Pontiac). I swear people need to put their phones down and DRIVE!

[DirtyLarry]

The ole guy in the Stupid Duty got me all worked up again tonight. Here is the result from last weekend’s episode and after spending all afternoon at the hospital. Doesn’t look bad on the surface but the BMW dealer is estimating $3000 to $4000 in damage. It is pretty banged up behind the bumper cover and there is an exhaust leak under the hood now, which could be part of the twin turbo $y$tem. Stupid girl in a Sonota nailed us doing about 40 MPH while we were going around a corner doing 2 to 5 MPH.



Rant off….

[MTCK]

Sorry to hear about the accident. Glad everyone is OK. That's one reason I like the old truck: there is enough road noise to keep you off the phone so I'm not even tempted. Good lick on unloading the old gearbox. I can't wait to see the finished product.
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[silver7]

I know where you are coming from and glad everyone is ok. In the hands of inept person a car can be a weapon.

Sounds like the truck is coming along. Very impressive. I've learned a lot following your build. Thanks.

[duallyjams]

Md passed a law no hand held device while driving I saw a police officer talking on his cell while driving the law changed nothing.

[snj8198]

Speedy recovery to your wife Larry. Sorry to hear about the bad luck and glad to hear about the good.

[DirtyLarry]

A few interior work in progress photos. The Rhino turned out really nice but cost WAY TOO much! The Rhino dealer should have been wearing a ski mask! $668 is ridiculous!

The long test drive from the Rhino shop back home brought out a few issues that need dealt with. The suspect hose from the booster to the gear box finally started leaking which figured it would. The slave cylinder is also leaking at the bore where the push rod comes out and the clutch pedal doesn’t feel right with very little travel. Go figure….another piece of junk Napa part. Lastly, I am worried out this trans as it is pretty loud in 5th gear. Granted there was no insulation inside the cab at the time so once I get the interior back together it may be just fine….I hope! I do love the way the 8.1L runs with the NV4500 though, much more so than the ZF S6-650 in my 2001 HD.

My trip to Detroit this week was cancelled so now I have another week at home to play with it.





Oh, this heavy floor mat is a hassle to install and trim. This thing is heavy and tougher than heck. Funny...even the mat has the same texture as Rhino.

[MTCK]

Ouch. You had better get a Christmas card from them.

[snj8198]

Hi Larry. Interior looks great but ya ouch on the price.

2 things on the tranny noise:

1st: My friend and I have found through trial and error that the gears run loud (especially 4th and 5th) if a GL-5 oil is used instead of the GM/Dodge oil which is GL-4 rated. As soon as I swapped out the GL-5 for the GL-4 his trans was eerily quieter within 50 miles. I've been using AmsOil's version in mine and it too is quiet.

Risking foot in mouth here, I guess the theory is GL-5 oils are too tough or abrasive or don't have the protective properties for the soft yellow metals used in NV4500 sycros. I can't give ya a scientific reason, it's just something I learned through my experiences and info i've picked up along the way that a guy can't use GL-5 oil in the NV4500. Some someday someone will have to school me on GL ratings and oil properties.

2nd: Once again risking foot in mouth... I know you said at the beginning of this thread that the 8.1 uses a one piece flywheel but please look into any possible issues of using a Center Force clutch with your set up. You may be experiencing a balance issue which causes the 5th gear noise until it completely destructs. There are bulletins and notes in the GM's shop manuals about what to do with different clutch setups, i just don't know the specifics. My friend Tim installed a 12" Center Force DF clutch behind his 6.5 diesel. After the install 5th gear was very noisy and the trans granaded under 2,000 miles (empty truck) so bad he couldn't use it for a core. Come to find out there was a service bulletin in the diesel shop's manual stating a balancer needed to be installed on the tail shaft to use the Center Force DF with the NV. This was not the typical 5th gear nut issue.

You probably know all this already but i thought i would share what little i've picked up.

Nice seats by the way.

[DirtyLarry]

I used the GM 12345349 Synchromesh fluid that the NV4500 calls for. Interesting on the clutch bulletin. Yeah, it has a one piece flywheel. I doubt that would be the deal but you never know as I have ran this part number clutch for years with no issues. Who knows…I don’t even really know if I have an issue until the interior is back together and drive it to see if the noise is still there. Between the Rhino, Dynomat, insulation and the rubber floor mat it should be pretty quiet inside. We’ll see. Gonna work on the interior more tonight. I dropped the driver’s seat back off at the upholstery shop this morning so they can finish the arm rests. Hope to see the seats by the end of the week.

[jonessmc87]

Originally Posted by snj8198

Hi Larry. Interior looks great but ya ouch on the price.

2 things on the tranny noise:

1st: My friend and I have found through trial and error that the gears run loud (especially 4th and 5th) if a GL-5 oil is used instead of the GM/Dodge oil which is GL-4 rated. As soon as I swapped out the GL-5 for the GL-4 his trans was eerily quieter within 50 miles. I've been using AmsOil's version in mine and it too is quiet.

Risking foot in mouth here, I guess the theory is GL-5 oils are too tough or abrasive or don't have the protective properties for the soft yellow metals used in NV4500 sycros. I can't give ya a scientific reason, it's just something I learned through my experiences and info i've picked up along the way that a guy can't use GL-5 oil in the NV4500. Some someday someone will have to school me on GL ratings and oil properties.

2nd: Once again risking foot in mouth... I know you said at the beginning of this thread that the 8.1 uses a one piece flywheel but please look into any possible issues of using a Center Force clutch with your set up. You may be experiencing a balance issue which causes the 5th gear noise until it completely destructs. There are bulletins and notes in the GM's shop manuals about what to do with different clutch setups, i just don't know the specifics. My friend Tim installed a 12" Center Force DF clutch behind his 6.5 diesel. After the install 5th gear was very noisy and the trans granaded under 2,000 miles (empty truck) so bad he couldn't use it for a core. Come to find out there was a service bulletin in the diesel shop's manual stating a balancer needed to be installed on the tail shaft to use the Center Force DF with the NV. This was not the typical 5th gear nut issue.

You probably know all this already but i thought i would share what little i've picked up.

Nice seats by the way.

that sure is interesting. For my sake i hope its just a fluke because i just put my DF centerforce clutch in this weekend when i did my swap. I'm sure i'll rack up 2000 miles long before Larry does, so i'll let you guys know how it works out.

[Zoomad75]

Hey dude are you sure that Rhino lining shop owner isn't from the Congo? (Just finished reading that epic trip report on the nuts driving through Congo) The price seems steep for the inside of a regular cab truck. He'd probably want a grand to do the inside of the K5. It looks good, but DANG! Can't wait to see the chairs finished too.

As far as the trans noise goes, from reading the repair order when we pulled your trans out, the main complaint was that it was popping out of 5th under load. Noise wasn't a complaint at the time. It was pretty clean inside when you had it apart too. Plus lopping off the last 4 inches of the tailshaft and installing the collar to retain 5th should have eliminated the original problem we pulled it for in the first place. I can't remember from when we installed the collar if there was a possibility of it sliding and possibly installed in not quite the right spot. Considering the AA adapters were so tight in tolerances if the collar was too far to the rear (talking fractions of an inch here) it would be rubbing on the adapter. It might be worth it to take a sample of fluid to see if there are any flakes of metal in it.

Don't freeze your nuggets off in the garage tomorrow, it's supposed to be stupid cold at 0* compared to the 60+ we had Saturday. Gotta love Colorado weather!

[DirtyLarry]

They claim the Rhino raping has more to do with prepping than materials. Aside from the prepping I already did they claim several hours of taping had to be done for the priming. They basically charged me the same amount as a full-size truck bed. Same price they quoted me to Rhino the bed of the Cracker. Still chaps my rear being I also bought the SnugTop from him and had other Rhino work done there.

Good to know the guy wasn’t complaining about noise. The noise may have just been exaggerated by the lack of interior insulation and boots on the shift towers. Man, installing this heavy duty rubber floor mat is a major undertaking of its own. Two nights work and still don’t have it completely fitted.

[DirtyLarry]

Some progress on the interior. Currently waiting on a set of new seat belts and the seats. Have a new clutch slave on order from Napa but other than that the interior is ready to go. The new stereo is in, tough as nails floor mat is in (Dynamat and insulation under it), and all the seat and seat belt holes have been located, which was a huge hassle through that thick rubber floor mat.

A while back someone asked if the Superbrite LED’s that I put in the cluster dimmed with the dimmer switch. To my surprise yes, they do. The lights are really brightened up the cluster too! I highly recommend them. It is nice to have a newer cluster that actually works. I haven’t had interior signal lights for years due to a broken printed circuit.

Once I get seats and belts and replace the slave it will finally be time for a good test drive to see about that possible transmission noise. I’ll deal with the seeping hose then too as I’ll need to drive it to the hydraulic shop to show them what needs to be fixed.

From this…



To this…. The center console had to be moved back 3 inches to clear the twin stick shifter.


How do you like the nice cargo net I borrowed out of a Chevy HHR rental car. It works great to keep winch controls, snatch straps, TP and gloves in.

[jonessmc87]

Funny you mention the clutch pedal feeling funny. My set up right now with the newer slave and early master has a lot of travel but the clutch acts quickly towards the very bottom. Being used to driving my dads truck with the sm465 and manual clutch, it feels completely different and weird. After almost a week now, i'm used to it. fifth gear isn't real noisy in mine, but all the gears have that awkward low rpm rumble like a 465 has. im still rocking the hole in the floor while i figure out my boot situation, so everything seems super loud.

[jbclassix]

Larry, you got any plans for making the t-case shift handles match the trans shifter?