Project Goldilocks, '66 C10 SWB BBW Build

[theastronaut]

I got the rear bracing mocked up today with string to check for clearance issues. I put the trailing arm crossmember in upside down so the trailing arm brackets would be flipped, which was much easier than drilling out all of those rivets to flip the bracket!



Crossmember flipped and arms/axle in place at lowest drop height.




String pulled to check bed floor clearance at full drop.




X member bracing pattern laid out with string. The bottom tubing will have to be curved downward in the center to clear the driveshaft, which I can do with my tubing roller. The upper tubes will only need a slight bend to clear the trailing arms at full drop.










The bottom tubes will be curved to roughly match the shape of the frame rails. I'll double check the amount of drop I'll need when I bring the driveshaft back to the shop and have the engine/T56 installed.






Also decided to make the exhaust run through the crossmember and out the side through the frame rail. This will give more ground clearance and make routing the exhaust tubing easier than trying to go over the rear axle.

[darkhorse970]

Also decided to make the exhaust run through the crossmember and out the side through the frame rail. This will give more ground clearance and make routing the exhaust tubing easier than trying to go over the rear axle.

[/QUOTE]


I've thought of running exhaust through the frame rail, can't wait to see how it works out for you.

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by darkhorse970

I've thought of running exhaust through the frame rail, can't wait to see how it works out for you.

There's a few guys on here that are running thru-frame exhaust. Here's a link tho the Hotchkis truck build. They have more detailed pics on the C10 forum and also on Facebook.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=466805
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[65Pickup]

Nice planning and great tip on the x member flip. That a Cougar in the background?

[chevyrestoguy]

I'm really interested to see how you're going to make that X-member snake around the trailing arms and not have them come in contact at full compression or full droop. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but is the x-member going above or below the trailing arm on the frame attach point closest to the rear end?

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by 65Pickup

Nice planning and great tip on the x member flip. That a Cougar in the background?

It's a Cougar, a '67 or '68. Not sure if it's a real XR-7 or not.

Originally Posted by chevyrestoguy

I'm really interested to see how you're going to make that X-member snake around the trailing arms and not have them come in contact at full compression or full droop. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but is the x-member going above or below the trailing arm on the frame attach point closest to the rear end?

Both upper and lower X member rear attachment points are above the trailing arms. Since theyre above the arms, they've only got to clear at full drop. The lower X will be dropped in the center to clear the driveshaft at full lift.
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[theastronaut]

Well, I found out that my tubing roller isn't going to be able to bend the lower tubes that have a tighter bend in them. It was pretty tough getting the slight curves in the upper tubes bent enough. I've used 16g and 18g tubing with it before and it did fine, but it didn't like the heavier 14g. I've got the upper tubes cut, shaped, welded, and clamped in place. It's amazing how much stiffer the rear half of the frame is with just the upper X clamped in place!!



I tapered down the ends of the tubing up front to make sure they cleared the cab when it goes back on.







Slight bend to clear the bed floor braces.





Driveshaft clearance at full drop.





Finished up, ready to be welded in place.









Bed floor rail clearance.







Trailing arm clearance at full drop.

[aggie91]

Looks good. What are you going to do about the bends in the lower tubes?

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by aggie91

Looks good. What are you going to do about the bends in the lower tubes?

Not sure yet. I may make patterns and take the tubes to somebody with a better bender. I thought about making pie cuts then bending and rewelding the cut but that would be alot of cutting/welding/grinding.
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[McMurphy]

I am so totally lost, I cannot keep up with what you are doing...
But I am in such awe that I cannot stop looking.

What you are doing sure looks good though, you know, for what its worth.

[duallyjams]

For what the top x brace has done due you think doing the bottom might be over kill.

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by McMurphy

I am so totally lost, I cannot keep up with what you are doing...
But I am in such awe that I cannot stop looking.

What you are doing sure looks good though, you know, for what its worth.

Thanks McMurphy!

Originally Posted by duallyjams

For what the top x brace has done due you think doing the bottom might be over kill.

The lower half of the frame rails still flex and rotate under the brace a good bit. The lower brace with tubes welded in to tie the two X's together will hopefully eliminate nearly all the twisting.
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[fakerwade]

Man this build is over the top!!! (and I thought I was crazy :-)

[McMurphy]

So with this much frame reinforcement, you are.....
dropping in a badazz drivetrain with sheetons of torque, or do you just live on a really bad road?

I just figure this much engineering has to be for something (of course I probably missed it if you already explained it. Either it didnt sink in, or you didnt use small enough words and concepts for me to follow) Hahahahah.

I do really like reading, Ok .... looking .... at this thread.

I am gonna sit in the corner with my crayons now and not be a nusince....

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by fakerwade

Man this build is over the top!!! (and I thought I was crazy :-)

Thanks dude!!

Originally Posted by McMurphy

So with this much frame reinforcement, you are.....
dropping in a badazz drivetrain with sheetons of torque, or do you just live on a really bad road?

I just figure this much engineering has to be for something (of course I probably missed it if you already explained it. Either it didnt sink in, or you didnt use small enough words and concepts for me to follow) Hahahahah.

I do really like reading, Ok .... looking .... at this thread.

I am gonna sit in the corner with my crayons now and not be a nusince....

Crayons huh... Somebody should send you a PPG coloring book!

I'm bracing the frame to keep it from twisting down its length. Right now it twist quite easily, much like a torsion bar would twist. The overall goal is to make the frame stiff so that the suspension works as it should instead of the frame deflecting and changing/reducing the effectiveness of the suspension's geometry. I'd like to eventually autocross the truck occasionally just for fun; I really enjoy driving anything that is nimble and responsive but I don't think just bolting on performace suspension parts will get the truck to the level I want it. A stiffer frame should make the truck more predictable, more solid feeling, have less sqeaks and rattles, and give a better overall driving experience. As far as the drivetrain, I'll eventually build an original 250 inline 6 for it, looking to get 350+hp from it. It'll get backed by a T56 six speed and a posi rear end.
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[Alan's Classic]

Very nice thought process, looks like you have thought of everything. I'm watching and learning.

[Vernski]

Astronaut love what's happening with your build, I am curious though how or what is your plan to extract 350 hp out of that 250 inline? I know they are doing crazy things with the inline down in Brazil so I know it's possible. Just wondered what your thoughts were on the motor so far. Thanx...Vernski

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by Alan's Classic

Very nice thought process, looks like you have thought of everything. I'm watching and learning.

I dont know about that, this is my first time working on a ladder type frame since I've always had unibody VW's that are pretty stiff to start with. Im sure theres things I've overlooked since I'm new to this. I couldnt find much to go on so Ive tried to analyze how the frame is flexing and figure out what "direction" each section of the individual frame rails are moving in when it flexes- thats helped me figure out what style of bracing should help the most, and where the bracing should be the most effective.

Originally Posted by Vernski

Astronaut love what's happening with your build, I am curious though how or what is your plan to extract 350 hp out of that 250 inline? I know they are doing crazy things with the inline down in Brazil so I know it's possible. Just wondered what your thoughts were on the motor so far. Thanx...Vernski

Here's what I've got planned so far. The hp numbers I posted are just a rough guess, but it shouldn't be too hard to make around 1.4 hp per cubic inch with a roller cam; my vw motor will make right at 1.5 hp/ci with a solid flat cam. 250x1.4 is 350, and I'm not sure how many cubic inches will be added from boring yet.


Bore the block enough to clean up the cylinders and leave enough meat for any future rebuild.
Balanced stock crank.
Lighten the flywheel.
Eagle forged 4340 rods, 5.7"
Forged pistons, haven't found any "off the shelf" yet. I think it can be bored enough to fit 305 pistons.
Head bolt boss removed from intake port, lump port kit installed.
Larger valves, ported heads, decked for more compression.
Block decked for .040-.050 deck height/quench.
13:1ish compression (will be running E85, 105 octane)
Solid roller cam, wanting it to pull to around 7000-7200 rpm.
Comp Cams Aluminum roller rockers, 1.75 ratio.
ARP main and head stud kit.
Triple Weber/Dellorto 2 barrel side draft carbs, or triple throttle bodies/efi.
6 into 1 header, single 3" exhaust, magnaflow/dynomax straight through muffler? I'll probably go though a few mufflers to get the sound I want, I'm pretty picky about how I want it to sound.

[duallyjams]

I like the race magnum that they have. My buddy has them on his race truck and I them on my Duramax Diesel and they sound great.

[McMurphy]

Originally Posted by theastronaut

I'm bracing the frame to keep it from twisting down its length. Right now it twist quite easily, much like a torsion bar would twist. The overall goal is to make the frame stiff so that the suspension works as it should instead of the frame deflecting and changing/reducing the effectiveness of the suspension's geometry. I'd like to eventually autocross the truck occasionally just for fun; I really enjoy driving anything that is nimble and responsive but I don't think just bolting on performace suspension parts will get the truck to the level I want it. A stiffer frame should make the truck more predictable, more solid feeling, have less sqeaks and rattles, and give a better overall driving experience. As far as the drivetrain, I'll eventually build an original 250 inline 6 for it, looking to get 350+hp from it. It'll get backed by a T56 six speed and a posi rear end.

Ok all kidding aside, that is an awesome explanation and just made me consider the overall design of the truck all over again. Are you going with the 250ci over the 292ci due to availability of parts or is there another reason? I ask because the 292 should give you a higher base line HP platform to start from, and is still an IL6 and bolts up to everything without adding too much additional weight.

Bore the block enough to clean up the cylinders and leave enough meat for any future rebuild.
Balanced stock crank.
Lighten the flywheel.
Eagle forged 4340 rods, 5.7"
Forged pistons, haven't found any "off the shelf" yet. I think it can be bored enough to fit 305 pistons.
Head bolt boss removed from intake port, lump port kit installed.
Larger valves, ported heads, decked for more compression.
Block decked for .040-.050 deck height/quench.
13:1ish compression (will be running E85, 105 octane)
Solid roller cam, wanting it to pull to around 7000-7200 rpm.
Comp Cams Aluminum roller rockers, 1.75 ratio.
ARP main and head stud kit.
Triple Weber/Dellorto 2 barrel side draft carbs, or triple throttle bodies/efi.
6 into 1 header, single 3" exhaust, magnaflow/dynomax straight through muffler? I'll probably go though a few mufflers to get the sound I want, I'm pretty picky about how I want it to sound.

With double or triple carbs, you are still going to go with a 6 to1 exhaust manifold instead of a dual exhaust? I see you are planning on 3" pipe but still.... on the other hand it would help keep the weight down I suppose.
With the dual exhaust there is still the option of installing electric exhaust dumps at an H or X crossover.
No doubt you are planning on a hotter ignition system, if not full electonic?
What are your plans for air flow? Cold air induction, or some form of forced air like a blower or ram air?
And I am guessing you are going to go with the smaller high torque starter as well, or will your flywheel shaving not make that a good idea? I guess the last thing you want to do is disintegrate your flywheel....

I hope to keep up with your engine build a lot easier than I can with the re-engineering of your frame!!

This is going to be a great build...glad I got into it on the first posting !!
Rock on man !!

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by McMurphy

Ok all kidding aside, that is an awesome explanation and just made me consider the overall design of the truck all over again. Are you going with the 250ci over the 292ci due to availability of parts or is there another reason? I ask because the 292 should give you a higher base line HP platform to start from, and is still an IL6 and bolts up to everything without adding too much additional weight.

I was able to find a 250 that's only 92 engines apart from the original engine, and the shorter stroke will rev better. The crank and rods are also lighter weight so they won't be as stressed at higher RPM's compared to a 292. The deck height is about 2" shorter so the block itself will weigh less, and the less weight on the nose of the truck the better.

Originally Posted by McMurphy

With double or triple carbs, you are still going to go with a 6 to1 exhaust manifold instead of a dual exhaust? I see you are planning on 3" pipe but still.... on the other hand it would help keep the weight down I suppose.
With the dual exhaust there is still the option of installing electric exhaust dumps at an H or X crossover.
No doubt you are planning on a hotter ignition system, if not full electonic?
What are your plans for air flow? Cold air induction, or some form of forced air like a blower or ram air?
And I am guessing you are going to go with the smaller high torque starter as well, or will your flywheel shaving not make that a good idea? I guess the last thing you want to do is disintegrate your flywheel....

I hope to keep up with your engine build a lot easier than I can with the re-engineering of your frame!!

This is going to be a great build...glad I got into it on the first posting !!
Rock on man !!

I don't like the exhaust sound of split headers, and a 6-1 header should make better power if the tubes are arranged in the right pattern in the collector. As far as ignition, I haven't looked into what is available yet but probably MSD or Mallory or similar if I use carbs. If I go efi I'll use a crank trigger and Ford EDIS with individual coil packs. Induction will be N/A but I'm considering using the two openings in the hood to make a cold air box that will seal down on the carbs. The front edge of the hood has some rust in it so I'm not completely against modifying the inner brace for air ducts since I'll be cutting and welding on the hood anyways. I'm not quite sure what to do about the flywheel yet since I don't know if the stock one will withstand 7000+ rpm. If not I'll have to buy an aftermarket flywheel. A high torque starter would be less weight but I want the engine to be detailed like GM would have built it, so I'll have to try to disguise it if I use one.
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[Gokart Mozart]

http://www.stoveboltengineco.com/ has parts and tips including ignition.

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by Gokart Mozart

http://www.stoveboltengineco.com/ has parts and tips including ignition.

Thanks for taking the time to post that link!

I poked around on there for awhile and didn't really find much info that I thought would be helpful for my 250 build. He posted that 200-250 hp is about all you can get for a "streetable" engine and 300hp wouldn't be streetable at all? 200hp isn't even 1 hp per cubic inch and there's a ton of factory engines (even old ones) that make atleast 1 hp/ci or more that are perfectly driveable and mild mannered. I think he's mostly into old school style power adders and not more modern (and better performing) parts. Newer style triple Weber's/Dellorto's with individual manifolds gets rid of reversion and the air/fuel charge problems that plenum/log type manifolds have, so they retain bottom end torque/smoothness even with huge cams. With pump E85 (105 octane) I can run alot of compression that helps add even more low end torque. I think most people that hot-rod inline engines do it for the old school style instead of actual performance gains and that's why there aren't many modern/newer technology hop up parts for them.

[theastronaut]

I don't know why I've been posting about 6 into 1 headers, there's only four exhaust ports...

[McMurphy]

Originally Posted by theastronaut

I don't know why I've been posting about 6 into 1 headers, there's only four exhaust ports...

I think I did that to you along the line of 6 cylinders into one exhaust tube, not necessarily 6 ports. I am glad someone else remembered the Stovebolt site, I could not recall it at the time I made my posts.

I cut my hood support in the front last weekend as well, like what you are talking about for forced (ram) air.
Cannot wait to see how you do yours!!