Starting my engine build

[davepl]

At the local shop I trust they break in all flat cams with high zddp oil like Joe Gibbs racing oil (I have no personal or financial interest in it, just telling you what they have luck with).

I've always heard to use light springs if you can, but you'd need a spring compressor, then you'd need to keep track of the shims and springs and where they came from, and a set of light springs to use that don't bind.

Unless we know we're talking about a lot more spring than stock, I'd risk it. But if it IS a lot more, then don't just chew the cam up because swapping springs is hard, we need to do something. But I don't see any indication of heavy springs?

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by davepl

At the local shop I trust they break in all flat cams with high zddp oil like Joe Gibbs racing oil (I have no personal or financial interest in it, just telling you what they have luck with).

I've always heard to use light springs if you can, but you'd need a spring compressor, then you'd need to keep track of the shims and springs and where they came from, and a set of light springs to use that don't bind.

Unless we know we're talking about a lot more spring than stock, I'd risk it. But if it IS a lot more, then don't just chew the cam up because swapping springs is hard, we need to do something. But I don't see any indication of heavy springs?

I called the shop this morning and they said it's a single spring, and I wouldn't need break in springs. Good catch on that, if the springs were heavier I would've just gone with it and chewed the cam up.

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by toolboxchev

That is looking awesome. You will be plenty of happy when your back together again.

Make sure your head shop puts in Viton seals. Those things really help keep compression and oil consumption to a minimum!

Also confirmed they are using Viton seals, thanks for the heads up

[toolboxchev]

Isnt that awesome.


There was a few details I wish I would have done, but it was just a top end rebuild. Things like grinding out the flash on the water jackets both on the block and heads but that is more like doing actual machine shop work.

Some old schoolers have a ton of trick up their sleeve.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by toolboxchev

Some old schoolers have a ton of trick up their sleeve.

I made friends with an old engine builder a couple of years back. He worked for a well-known NASCAR team building their engines for I think 14 years before retiring back up here.

Now he has pancreatic cancer, which has a survival rate of about 0%. It's really struck me how much this guy knows that he simply won't be able to pass along before he himself passes. I ask a lot of questions, but you can't ask everything...

He's also the only guy that really knows how to run their engine dyno; no idea what'll happen to that when he's gone. I've hinted at my interest, but it's not something I want to do full time either, so wouldn't be fair to take his time mentoring if I weren't 100% serious. Plus it's hard to say "Since you're going to die, perhaps you could show me how to run this...."

But I did get to tear apart a 351W with him yesterday that had eaten the cam, which was good timing for this conversation. The lifters were totally cupped and chewed, and he said that the metal has to go somewhere, and it often winds up in the piston skirts and then screws up the cylinder walls.

And no surprise, besides having no compression in the wiped cylinders, the others had about 20% leakdown. He called all that in advance from looking at the rocker arms...

Oh well, we'll all get old one day I guess!

[Mrturner1]

That would be an awesome experience. Techniques and tricks from a guy like that are like finding gold.

[geezer#99]

Have you bought the modeler's clay yet?

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

Have you bought the modeler's clay yet?

Nope not yet. That's for checking piston to valve clearance right?

[geezer#99]

Originally Posted by Mrturner1

Nope not yet. That's for checking piston to valve clearance right?

Yup!!
And a couple solid lifters are needed too.

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

Yup!!
And a couple solid lifters are needed too.

What are those for?

[toolboxchev]

I am going to make a Wild *** Guess and say "They would be to use instead of the HYD lifters due to any amount of compression they will experience when turning the engine over".

I.E. use the solids when checking your piston to valve clearance.

Thats my guess, What do I win? Do more research on the net you will find tons of info on the 350 small block.

[geezer#99]

When you mock it up to check the valve to piston clearance you need solid lifters to replace the hydraulic ones on that cylinder. Solid lifters have no play in them. Hydraulic ones might compress a bit skewing your clearance check.
You're just looking for accuracy.
Besides you'll need a couple to degree the cam in.

[davepl]

FWIW I make my own "solid" lifters. Take an old lifter, remove the clip, stuff a nut or similar object in place of the collapsible part, put it back together.

I also paint them orange so I know never to use them for anything else. Like you'd grab an old lifter out of a drawer when building an engine... but still.

I also use my kids' PlayDoh instead of modeller's clay. So you can "make" some of this speciality stuff yourself.

I also use the solid lifters when degreeing the cam and checking for coil bind, just to make sure the hydraulic piston isn't "cutting me any slack", as it were.

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by davepl

FWIW I make my own "solid" lifters. Take an old lifter, remove the clip, stuff a nut or similar object in place of the collapsible part, put it back together.

I also paint them orange so I know never to use them for anything else. Like you'd grab an old lifter out of a drawer when building an engine... but still.

I also use my kids' PlayDoh instead of modeller's clay. So you can "make" some of this speciality stuff yourself.

I also use the solid lifters when degreeing the cam and checking for coil bind, just to make sure the hydraulic piston isn't "cutting me any slack", as it were.

HaHa I like it, old lifter and kids play doh that fits the budget perfectly. What do you use to measure the play doh?

[toolboxchev]

Harbor Fright micrometer.

[hamjet]

I did it differently. I used two very week springs like springs used in vac secondarys but stiffer, all done with hydraulic lifters, no clay, just to make sure I had no piston to valve interference. one very week spring on intake valve, one on exhaust on number 1 cylinder. I started with the piston maybe 10 degreese BTDC and slowly rotated the crank with a torque wrench on the snout of the crank till I was about 10 ATDC. while rotating it I would push down on the valve making sure I had sufficient clearence. at the tightest spot I checked distance with an indicator just to see how far the closest clearence was. I did this with no head gasket so I didn't have to worry about closer tolerences after I torqued the head down. Strange way of doing things, but it worked...

[Mrturner1]

Going to pick up the heads and head gaskets, and finally looks like a day without rain.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by toolboxchev

Harbor Fright micrometer.

Yep, invaluable. I don't honestly know if there's an accuracy difference between the digital and the dial units, but there's one digital unit (that I've had trouble with) that I see under dozens of brand names, they must be made by the millions. I actually think they're around ten bucks.

If it's close enough you need an accurate micrometer though, you're cutting the clearance pretty close!

But its the right tool, as toolboxchev said.

I probably do it wrong/different, but I cut the clay with a razor or boxcutter and then measure the thinnest part with the depth end of the micrometer.

[Mrturner1]

Almost ready

[davepl]

Do you have assembly lube? Also you will need a proper sealant for some of the head bolts. I'm not a small-block guy but I think some go right into water jackets. I use the ARP stuff because it's both a sealant and allows for proper torque readings, apparently. But because you need to torque the bolts accurately you can't just wrap them in teflon tape or anything like that...

When you get to the point of torquing down the heads, ask for input - there are a lot of little things to know, like of course you need to follow the torque sequence, how many increments to do it in (3?) and so on. Not rocket science, but lots of little things to know.

And just because they're sitting together, I'll mention - never any sealant on head gaskets, except sometimes on the tips where they meet the intake end gaskets.

Like Christmas opening parts boxes...

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by davepl

Do you have assembly lube? Also you will need a proper sealant for some of the head bolts. I'm not a small-block guy but I think some go right into water jackets. I use the ARP stuff because it's both a sealant and allows for proper torque readings, apparently. But because you need to torque the bolts accurately you can't just wrap them in teflon tape or anything like that...

When you get to the point of torquing down the heads, ask for input - there are a lot of little things to know, like of course you need to follow the torque sequence, how many increments to do it in (3?) and so on. Not rocket science, but lots of little things to know.

And just because they're sitting together, I'll mention - never any sealant on head gaskets, except sometimes on the tips where they meet the intake end gaskets.

Like Christmas opening parts boxes...

Thanks Dave!

I have the break in lube that came with the comp cam, AND I got a small bottle of Comp break in lube just in case more was needed than the little pouch they give you. Is that the same as assembly lube?

I'm glad you mentioned the water jacket bolt sealant I totally forgot about that in all the excitement. Any insight on which to use for those bolts and which ones they are is appreciated.

[Mrturner1]

I did a good bit of reading and looking at dyno sheets, and decided to fork out the extra 70 bucks and get an RPM Air Gap manifold instead of the Performer RPM I had. All the dyno tests I saw are showing a pretty significant increase in power at the same rpm range, I think it's because the air going in is cooler on the air gap. Less contact with the engine (the gap under the carb) means less heat, less heat is guuuuud I almost got it in black and changed the color scheme completely but I am goin for polished, or satin painted to match the block. That's a whole other project I'm going to tackle soon

[Mrturner1]

Can anyone tell me what size the Head bolts are so I can get a thread chaser? I'm having a heckuva time even finding a thread chaser, everyone has tap and dyes but no chasers

[Mrturner1]

Another thing, the guy at the machine shop said to clean the block surface with Scotch-Brite and I remember somebody a couple days ago on this thread telling me not to use Scotch-Brite. I have a razor and I can get some brake cleaner as well, or if the guy at the machine shop is correct about Scotch-Brite I'll get that. It seems weird that he would be wrong about something like that is a professional engine builder but I certainly don't want to ruin the block As somebody previously mentioned

[GRX]

Head bolts = 7/16-14 (course thread). Be sure to clean the bolts too. Thread chaser is ideal but a tap will work. Have literally done hundreds of blocks that way.

Gap intake does help the air/fuel mixture stay cooler. Main advantage is the increased height and runners.

Figured the Comp cam would come with a pack of gray Moly paste. DO use it on the cam lobes and distributor gear. Do not get it on the cam bearings, or other such surfaces. That is where the bottle stuff comes in.

Scotch Brite by hand works great. Use common sense and don't rub wild and remove any metal. The warning earlier in this discussion was the grinder mounted disks I believe. Easy to ruin the surface if used improperly.