Make it handle - Page 70 - The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network

jlsanborn · 12-31-2014, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coldshot

I've tried to read threw the whole thread but haven't made it all the way yet. Have a question that I hope hasn't been brought up. Independent rear suspention? Anyone testing/tuning?
I'm building a 51 3100 on an s10 frame and have a 88 toyota supra IRS witch is a sub frame dual wishbone design. Has limited slip and matches the stock truck width.

Going coilover all around.
Haven't seen or heard of anyone doing my setup so I'm just wondering what you guys think? As I can clearly read you know your stuff
Thanks

Build thread? Sounds cool!

Coldshot · 01-01-2015, 12:57 AM

My build is on a temp hold at the moment as my other half has me building stuff for the house.
I was originally gonna build an autocross s10 but luckily my lady likes the 50's so I sold everything I could off the dime to get what I have now.
Lq4 (6.0l), IRS, full 51' body and 2" drop spindles.

Once I have some real work to show I'll post a thread.
I still need a t56 and a bunch of spare time to make a dent.
Any help with ideas to set up my IRS would be great.
And before anyone says it, the rear can take the power I plan to put down.

Front is getting upper control arms with tall upper and lower Bj's, re enforced lowers with beltech coilovers and C5 brakes. Brakes on the supra IRS are 10.5 rotors so they should do fine.

Expert advise needed, thanks again

1FUN64 · 01-06-2015, 02:21 PM

Coldshot,

Keep digging through this thread. It's been a long time since I went through this in detail so I am not sure where it is but there was a discussion on IRS pros and cons. I believe it was about a Lincoln style IRS but not sure.

I agree on the rear, no problem with the power.

If I happen across the number of the post I will reply again with it.

Build sounds cool, have fun with it.

Possmguts · 01-06-2015, 05:46 PM

Just getting started on a build on my 67 short fleet side. Im trying to save some cash here and there and make some stuff work rather than sell one of the kids to just buy stuff made for the job. If I do what I describe here I can save over 1000 bucks for other goodies.

I met a guy last year that takes c4 Corvette front and rear suspension sets and installs them on older trucks. His work looks real nice and some of the trucks are used as auto cross trucks.

What I would like to do is buy a 95 C4 front end with the 13"x 1" rotors. This set up is 63.25" hub face to hub face. Do these measurements sound like I will be able to put a pretty wide wheels and tire up front with no worries about rubbing? I believe a 17" wheel would be minimum for the rotors.

Im sure this will lighten the front end up a pretty good deal as it consists of the cross member and R&P steering and aluminum A arms.

As far as ride height goes the entire set up can be positioned for what ever I want before being welded in. If what i want is to have about a 2" rake from front to back would the set up have to be angled for that rake to get the correct geometry for steer-ability?

This is a weld in deal and I really want to be sure its done right if you know what I mean.

Heres a pic of the set up.... any suggestions? Thanks

**robnolimit** · 01-07-2015, 10:33 AM

Newman Car creations are the specialists when it comes to C4 and C5 stuff. The front will need to be converted to coil overs to get a spring rate to fit the truck. The wheels will need a deeper offset, like on a vette, but that is no problem for the aftermarket.

SCOTI · 01-07-2015, 11:28 AM

Speaking of vette stuff, is Global West the only manufacturer of Delrin bushings for C4 based front suspensions?

skorpioskorpio · 01-07-2015, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Possmguts

...

What I would like to do is buy a 95 C4 front end with the 13"x 1" rotors. This set up is 63.25" hub face to hub face. Do these measurements sound like I will be able to put a pretty wide wheels and tire up front with no worries about rubbing? I believe a 17" wheel would be minimum for the rotors.

...

If by 13" rotors you are referring to the Z51 rotors and PBR sliding calipers, you'll probably need at least an 18" wheel to clear them. My 18s clear them by about an eighth of an inch. To maintain the 'Vette geometry you'll need to widen the whole package around 5 or 6 inches as the C10 is about 6 inches wider than the 'Vette. The front would need to be widened in the crossmember as simply trying to do it with deeper wheels will defeat the whole geometry of the 'Vette suspension which is designed to push the steering pivot point into the wheel.

Possmguts · 01-07-2015, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skorpioskorpio

If by 13" rotors you are referring to the Z51 rotors and PBR sliding calipers, you'll probably need at least an 18" wheel to clear them. My 18s clear them by about an eighth of an inch. To maintain the 'Vette geometry you'll need to widen the whole package around 5 or 6 inches as the C10 is about 6 inches wider than the 'Vette. The front would need to be widened in the crossmember as simply trying to do it with deeper wheels will defeat the whole geometry of the 'Vette suspension which is designed to push the steering pivot point into the wheel.

It would be the stock caliper and rotor to the Vette and since they have 17" wheels shouldnt that work for me? I really dont want to go bigger than that in front.

skorpioskorpio · 01-09-2015, 01:53 PM

Standard 'Vette rotors are 305mm (12"), Z51 rotors are 340mm (13 3/8" and what I'm using) and Z06 rotors are 355mm (14"). So yea 17"s will probably clear with the stock rotors.

Possmguts · 01-09-2015, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skorpioskorpio

Standard 'Vette rotors are 305mm (12"), Z51 rotors are 340mm (13 3/8" and what I'm using) and Z06 rotors are 355mm (14"). So yea 17"s will probably clear with the stock rotors.

Thanks. And you're sure I would have to widen it by 5"? What would i have to do with the RP steering if thats the case?

skorpioskorpio · 01-09-2015, 04:23 PM

If the goal is to retain something like the 'Vette handling you need to keep the relationship of the pivot center to offset intact, so yea. Otherwise you are going to end up with a bulge to bulge width about 8-9" narrower than fender lip to lip. Making the rack work is just longer rod ends, that's easy.

**robnolimit** · 01-12-2015, 10:37 AM

'Vette stuff works really good in a vette. Where the high roll center, low travel, low center of gravity all worked together. Also, the engine is completely behind the front axle CL, and front to rear balance is 48/52%. Now looking at these old trucks, those 'vette conditions are not what we have.

Can that stuff be installed with some success? - yes
Is it better that the OE stuff? - maybe, but mostly due to upgrades in brakes,shocks,and swaybars.
Is it the very best handling suspension design for a classic truck - well, no.

So, just be aware of these things and make sure that the outcome of the project will deliver what your after.

Coldshot · 01-12-2015, 11:01 AM

So to get the best out of the vett front suspension. Setting the motor and Trans as low and back as possible is the way to go?
I'm gonna give it a go in my s10 frame, mostly to get the width, but some handling too

skorpioskorpio · 01-12-2015, 05:50 PM

No doubt IRS makes for sexy bragging rights, but what I find interesting is that when you see some of the footage from autocross events the vintage 'Vettes seem to do more tire edge riding than the cars with Ford 9s and Winters rears. Now granted what you are seeing is typically C2 'Vettes which are a whole lot more crude than a C4, but still, if a heavily worked independent rear on a '60s vintage 'Vette can't keep a tire more flat and in contact with the pavement than an equally heavily worked non-independent rear in a '60s vintage Camaro or Chevelle or trucks even I guess I have to wonder if there is really a benefit to using the C4 IRS and all the complications that go with that in a C-10 truck and have it truly out perform the solid axle in any sort of a real world way. I certainly get that it should, and I get why it should, but in practice, when dealing with the worst case scenario of hard turns, granted on unbanked flat tracks, the IRS systems don't really seem to keep tires more flat against the pavement, which is the whole argument for them in the first place.

mikecaddy500 · 01-14-2015, 12:41 AM

Just picked up a 72 lwb c10 and a98 chevy donor truck. would like to know if I can swap the front crossmember and suspension into my old truck. Planned on moving tank and battery to rear,swapping the fi350 and 4speed auto and the one piece driveshaft (lighter?). Any thoughts or info would be helpful.

SCOTI · 01-14-2015, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikecaddy500

Just picked up a 72 lwb c10 and a98 chevy donor truck. would like to know if I can swap the front crossmember and suspension into my old truck. Planned on moving tank and battery to rear,swapping the fi350 and 4speed auto and the one piece driveshaft (lighter?). Any thoughts or info would be helpful.

Definitely not a bolt-in swap for the front end.

octanejunkie · 01-20-2015, 08:42 PM

Great thread here!
Looking to apply as much of this info to my stock '59

ps. PM sent to RobNoLimit re Power Steering Straight Axle Kit

Greywolf200 · 01-21-2015, 09:38 PM

Have been seeing rear axle setups that used a link from the front leaf spring hanger and a track bar. Kind of a short truck arm setup with short parallel arms. Does anyone know how well this system works. Sounds really simple, but often simple is not a good thing.

jjzepplin · 01-21-2015, 11:54 PM

I think you may be thinking of a "Cal Trac" setup.

solidaxel · 01-22-2015, 12:51 PM

[QUOTE=jjzepplin;7013995]I think you may be thinking of a "Cal Trac" setup.[/QUOTE

Anyone with experience with Cal-tracs, how do they work when de-acceleration?

Greywolf200 · 01-22-2015, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjzepplin

I think you may be thinking of a "Cal Trac" setup.

I Googled Cal Trac and they appear to be just a traction bar setup like the old Traction Masters. They bolt on the leaf springs to prevent spring wrap up. The setup I've been seeing has a tube locating the axle front to rear, a track bar for right to left, and coilovers, no leaf springs.

Thanks for the info though,

hotrod1 · 01-31-2015, 03:51 PM

ROB No-Limit or anyone else. Have a question.

Was thinking about moving my engine back another 6 inches (already made space for 3 inches). Is this worth the trouble? I am at a point where I need to determine engine placement and would not have to cut it loose or change drive shaft, etc. I would have to further recess the firewall and will displace the Vintage Air unit under the dash. I am hesitant because I still want air and don't know of another solution. I guess I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too.

Coldshot · 02-03-2015, 02:59 PM

When selecting coilovers for a custom set up, should the strut/shock be the same front to back and just spring rate change or should the back get more stoke or vis versa?
Thought that might be a good question. Hope it hasn't been covered

Monte's62 · 03-01-2015, 01:27 AM

[quote=solidaxel;7014556]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjzepplin

I think you may be thinking of a "Cal Trac" setup.[/QUOTE

Anyone with experience with Cal-tracs, how do they work when de-acceleration?

Cal Tracs work great in drag racing for loading the tires. My experience is in a 67 camaro with factory type suspension. I can't speak for "our" trucks.

C20ELEPHANT · 03-01-2015, 09:48 AM

The guys on the diesel sites love the Cal-Tracs and most always opt for bars, the Cal-Tracs are right around $400.00. Most will not buy them when they find you have to remove the one bushing from the rear eyelet of the leaf spring (and remove the leaf spring) and install/press the aluminum pivot bushing in its place and can be noisy for a daily driver...As for deceleration never read any comments...

01-01-2015, 12:57 AM	#1727
Coldshot Registered User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Langley B.C Posts: 179	Re: Make it handle My build is on a temp hold at the moment as my other half has me building stuff for the house. I was originally gonna build an autocross s10 but luckily my lady likes the 50's so I sold everything I could off the dime to get what I have now. Lq4 (6.0l), IRS, full 51' body and 2" drop spindles. Once I have some real work to show I'll post a thread. I still need a t56 and a bunch of spare time to make a dent. Any help with ideas to set up my IRS would be great. And before anyone says it, the rear can take the power I plan to put down. Front is getting upper control arms with tall upper and lower Bj's, re enforced lowers with beltech coilovers and C5 brakes. Brakes on the supra IRS are 10.5 rotors so they should do fine. Expert advise needed, thanks again

01-06-2015, 02:21 PM	#1728
1FUN64 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Bismarck, ND Posts: 26	Re: Make it handle Coldshot, Keep digging through this thread. It's been a long time since I went through this in detail so I am not sure where it is but there was a discussion on IRS pros and cons. I believe it was about a Lincoln style IRS but not sure. I agree on the rear, no problem with the power. If I happen across the number of the post I will reply again with it. Build sounds cool, have fun with it. __________________ Kent DRIVE IT HARD, DRIVE IT OFTEN! Short video of Black Betty & a friends 48 Panhead done by my kid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DlAdfwDQa8

01-06-2015, 05:46 PM	#1729
Possmguts Registered User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Columbiana Ohio Posts: 1,210	Re: Make it handle Just getting started on a build on my 67 short fleet side. Im trying to save some cash here and there and make some stuff work rather than sell one of the kids to just buy stuff made for the job. If I do what I describe here I can save over 1000 bucks for other goodies. I met a guy last year that takes c4 Corvette front and rear suspension sets and installs them on older trucks. His work looks real nice and some of the trucks are used as auto cross trucks. What I would like to do is buy a 95 C4 front end with the 13"x 1" rotors. This set up is 63.25" hub face to hub face. Do these measurements sound like I will be able to put a pretty wide wheels and tire up front with no worries about rubbing? I believe a 17" wheel would be minimum for the rotors. Im sure this will lighten the front end up a pretty good deal as it consists of the cross member and R&P steering and aluminum A arms. As far as ride height goes the entire set up can be positioned for what ever I want before being welded in. If what i want is to have about a 2" rake from front to back would the set up have to be angled for that rake to get the correct geometry for steer-ability? This is a weld in deal and I really want to be sure its done right if you know what I mean. Heres a pic of the set up.... any suggestions? Thanks Attached Images __________________ "Hey... its only time and money right? Just do it." 67 Short Bed under major construction http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=651356&page=8

01-07-2015, 10:33 AM	#1730
robnolimit Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA Posts: 2,226	Re: Make it handle Newman Car creations are the specialists when it comes to C4 and C5 stuff. The front will need to be converted to coil overs to get a spring rate to fit the truck. The wheels will need a deeper offset, like on a vette, but that is no problem for the aftermarket. __________________ GoodGuys 2012 Pro-Truck Champion 2012 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2011 National Champion 2011 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2010 National Champion Proud to put our products up against all others!

01-07-2015, 11:28 AM	#1731
SCOTI Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: DALLAS,TX Posts: 22,026	Re: Make it handle Speaking of vette stuff, is Global West the only manufacturer of Delrin bushings for C4 based front suspensions? __________________ 67SWB-B.B.RetroRod 64SWB-Recycle 89CCDually-Driver/Tow Truck 99CCSWB Driver All Fleetsides @rattlecankustoms in IG Building a small, high rpm engine with the perfect bore, stroke and rod ratio is very impressive. It's like a highly skilled Morrocan sword fighter with a Damascus Steel Scimitar..... *Cubic inches is like Indiana Jones with a cheap pistol.*

01-09-2015, 01:53 PM	#1734
skorpioskorpio Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,018	Re: Make it handle Standard 'Vette rotors are 305mm (12"), Z51 rotors are 340mm (13 3/8" and what I'm using) and Z06 rotors are 355mm (14"). So yea 17"s will probably clear with the stock rotors.

01-09-2015, 04:23 PM	#1736
skorpioskorpio Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,018	Re: Make it handle If the goal is to retain something like the 'Vette handling you need to keep the relationship of the pivot center to offset intact, so yea. Otherwise you are going to end up with a bulge to bulge width about 8-9" narrower than fender lip to lip. Making the rack work is just longer rod ends, that's easy.

01-12-2015, 10:37 AM	#1737
robnolimit Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA Posts: 2,226	Re: Make it handle 'Vette stuff works really good in a vette. Where the high roll center, low travel, low center of gravity all worked together. Also, the engine is completely behind the front axle CL, and front to rear balance is 48/52%. Now looking at these old trucks, those 'vette conditions are not what we have. Can that stuff be installed with some success? - yes Is it better that the OE stuff? - maybe, but mostly due to upgrades in brakes,shocks,and swaybars. Is it the very best handling suspension design for a classic truck - well, no. So, just be aware of these things and make sure that the outcome of the project will deliver what your after. __________________ GoodGuys 2012 Pro-Truck Champion 2012 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2011 National Champion 2011 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2010 National Champion Proud to put our products up against all others!

01-12-2015, 11:01 AM	#1738
Coldshot Registered User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Langley B.C Posts: 179	Re: Make it handle So to get the best out of the vett front suspension. Setting the motor and Trans as low and back as possible is the way to go? I'm gonna give it a go in my s10 frame, mostly to get the width, but some handling too

01-12-2015, 05:50 PM	#1739
skorpioskorpio Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,018	Re: Make it handle No doubt IRS makes for sexy bragging rights, but what I find interesting is that when you see some of the footage from autocross events the vintage 'Vettes seem to do more tire edge riding than the cars with Ford 9s and Winters rears. Now granted what you are seeing is typically C2 'Vettes which are a whole lot more crude than a C4, but still, if a heavily worked independent rear on a '60s vintage 'Vette can't keep a tire more flat and in contact with the pavement than an equally heavily worked non-independent rear in a '60s vintage Camaro or Chevelle or trucks even I guess I have to wonder if there is really a benefit to using the C4 IRS and all the complications that go with that in a C-10 truck and have it truly out perform the solid axle in any sort of a real world way. I certainly get that it should, and I get why it should, but in practice, when dealing with the worst case scenario of hard turns, granted on unbanked flat tracks, the IRS systems don't really seem to keep tires more flat against the pavement, which is the whole argument for them in the first place.

01-14-2015, 12:41 AM	#1740
mikecaddy500 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: howard city mi Posts: 83	Re: Make it handle Just picked up a 72 lwb c10 and a98 chevy donor truck. would like to know if I can swap the front crossmember and suspension into my old truck. Planned on moving tank and battery to rear,swapping the fi350 and 4speed auto and the one piece driveshaft (lighter?). Any thoughts or info would be helpful.

01-20-2015, 08:42 PM	#1742
octanejunkie Registered User Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Santa Monica Posts: 264	Re: Make it handle Great thread here! Looking to apply as much of this info to my stock '59 ps. PM sent to RobNoLimit re Power Steering Straight Axle Kit __________________ Déjà vu. It's that feeling you get when you hit your thumb with the hammer a second time '59 Chevy 3100 Stepside

01-21-2015, 09:38 PM	#1743
Greywolf200 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Mount Airy, NC Posts: 132	Re: Make it handle Have been seeing rear axle setups that used a link from the front leaf spring hanger and a track bar. Kind of a short truck arm setup with short parallel arms. Does anyone know how well this system works. Sounds really simple, but often simple is not a good thing. __________________ Jack Byrd '70 Chev Custom SWB(new to me), 307CID(added Weiand Stealth, headers and Edelbrock Performer carb, up to 17 MPG now), 700R4 '76 Airstream Argosy MH(want a longer one), 454CID, TH400

01-21-2015, 11:54 PM	#1744
jjzepplin Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ruskin Florida Posts: 4,566	Re: Make it handle I think you may be thinking of a "Cal Trac" setup. __________________ 70 swb 4x4 406sbc 700r4 203/205 d60/14blt locker yadda yadda http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...88#post6935688 Yeller 72 Blazer 2wd conversion project "No Daggum Money" http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=550804 LS1-T56 3.73 LSD super budget build Blanco-2014 Sierra SWB https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=810350

01-22-2015, 12:51 PM	#1745
solidaxel Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Cactus Patch So. Az Posts: 4,749	Re: Make it handle [QUOTE=jjzepplin;7013995]I think you may be thinking of a "Cal Trac" setup.[/QUOTE Anyone with experience with Cal-tracs, how do they work when de-acceleration? __________________ 53 TuTone Extended Cab 350 4-Spd 3:08 (SOLD) 53 Chevy Moldy pearl green ZZ-4 4L60E 9" 3:25 55 GMC 1st Black Mll (ZZ4) ZZ6 TKO 600 5 sp 3:73 62 Solidaxle Corvette Roman Red (327 340hp 4spd 3:36) C4 & C5 suspension tube chassis LS 3 4L70E 65 Corvette Coupe 327 350hp 4spd 4:11 78 Black Silverado SWB (350/350) 5.3 & 4L60E 3:42 2000 S-Type 3.0 (wife cruiser) 2003 GMC SCSB 5.3 4L60E 3:42



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01-31-2015, 03:51 PM	#1747
hotrod1 56 - autocross Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Camarillo, Ca Posts: 1,121	Re: Make it handle ROB No-Limit or anyone else. Have a question. Was thinking about moving my engine back another 6 inches (already made space for 3 inches). Is this worth the trouble? I am at a point where I need to determine engine placement and would not have to cut it loose or change drive shaft, etc. I would have to further recess the firewall and will displace the Vintage Air unit under the dash. I am hesitant because I still want air and don't know of another solution. I guess I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too.

02-03-2015, 02:59 PM	#1748
Coldshot Registered User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Langley B.C Posts: 179	Re: Make it handle When selecting coilovers for a custom set up, should the strut/shock be the same front to back and just spring rate change or should the back get more stoke or vis versa? Thought that might be a good question. Hope it hasn't been covered

03-01-2015, 09:48 AM	#1750
C20ELEPHANT Registered User Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Phoenix Posts: 29	Re: Make it handle The guys on the diesel sites love the Cal-Tracs and most always opt for bars, the Cal-Tracs are right around $400.00. Most will not buy them when they find you have to remove the one bushing from the rear eyelet of the leaf spring (and remove the leaf spring) and install/press the aluminum pivot bushing in its place and can be noisy for a daily driver...As for deceleration never read any comments...

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