Make it handle

[BMERDOC]

I apologize for not having a lot of time to answer your question but a simple solution for bump steer is to move the outer tie rods to the lower side of the spindle.

[Trixxterr]

Originally Posted by mcmlxix

Hey Rob, have you seen the Wilwood ProSpindle kit? It has a modular design with a removable steering arm, sealed bearing for slip on rotors and a 2.5" built in drop.

http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl427.pdf ..................... http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds1194.pdf

THIS.... FTW!! Exactly what I have been asking for!!

[rcodea]

Originally Posted by BMERDOC

I apologize for not having a lot of time to answer your question but a simple solution for bump steer is to move the outer tie rods to the lower side of the spindle.

But I thought that was backwards of what Rob said before...even with massive 9* caster. I am probably just very confused

~Ryan

[Bobby Pootz]

Can I get some help with understanding truck suspension?

Meaning, I have a 1984 C10 and a 2015 Toyota Tundra. I love my Tundra's ride and power just fine, so I'd like to replicate it. Not so much get it to handle like a sports car but more of a modern truck. Only suspension improvement I did to my 4.6L SR Tundra was Bilsteins all around and a rear sway bar.

So what improvements could I make to closely mimic my Tundra?

Example for improving the rear suspension -

C10 with new shocks and improved panhard bar = Modern Truck
C10 with new shock, leaf springs and trailing arms = Modern Performance Truck
C10 with a 4-Link suspension in the rear = Modern Sports Car

Am I making sense? What I'm trying to do is improve the truck to be decent handling like a modern truck, I'm not looking for it to act like a Corvette.

I thought this might be a good thread to throw out this question. Hope I'm not out of place. Thanks in advance!

Rob

[skorpioskorpio]

Originally Posted by mcmlxix

Hey Rob, have you seen the Wilwood ProSpindle kit? It has a modular design with a removable steering arm, sealed bearing for slip on rotors and a 2.5" built in drop.

http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl427.pdf ..................... http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds1194.pdf

oooo, that's cool! So may sound like a dumb question, but how come we've never seen brake setups with 2 calipers on the same rotor? I mean that's essentially all a multi piston multi pad caliper is, it's just multiple calipers in the same housing, so why not multiple calipers in different housings? This spindle seems pre-setup to run a leading and a trailing caliper at the same time.

[70blackfish]

I have em in the rear. New wilwood on the front also

[70blackfish]

New wilwood spindle and brakes

[hotrod1]

Originally Posted by 70blackfish

I have em in the rear. New wilwood on the front also

So tell us about the dual calipers.

[skorpioskorpio]

Awesome, I'd love to do a dual caliper setup like that in the front. Again though I'd be really curious what the downside is, has to be something or we'd see this more commonly. Seems like it would distribute the stress on the rotor more evenly and might actually reduce rotor warp. One argument might be heat, but I don't see how that changes really from a single huge caliper with more pistons exerting more force is different from a physics standpoint. If I was going to do it I'd probably try and do it with 2 piston aluminum sliders which are way lighter than 6 piston fixed calipers, so the weight would be probably about a break even.

Personally I'd probably pair the front with the same size rotors in the back and a single front caliper. Assuming duals in the front actually provide some significant ratio of improvement that this balance make sense. Hmmm.

[mcmlxix]

I think the Audi R8 has dual calipers in the rear, one may be an emergency brake.

I would think that the master cylinder would need the appropriate size for all the pistons in both calipers, like you said, no different than one huge 6 piston caliper. I think you might need to split the brake line and feed both calipers rather than in series.

This would be great for someone who wants to run smaller wheels and can't fit the big 6 piston calipers...

[skorpioskorpio]

This revelation sent me on a Google mission, apparently dual calipers are fairly common, but not for the reason at hand. It seems this is a common trick among drifters, with one caliper connected to the pedal and the other connected to individual hand brake levers.

It's also been used on quite a few F1, endurance racers and rally cars. I agree you would probably need to split the lines, vs. series, perhaps even splitting the lines *and* providing an additional pressure balance line from caliper to caliper, just thinking. While I think master cylinder piston volume matters, of course it would, but I am looking at this from a standpoint of using 2 Z51 sliding calipers (2 pistons each) and given that the master is the same as used on Z06 calipers (6 pistons each) I am not sure it wouldn't be something you could deal with, especially in a hydroboost setup. In the grand scheme of things, even the 2 piston Z51 calipers can dead lock a pretty big sticky tire, it's just a matter of how many times it can do it in what period of time.

I also wonder about using 2 different pad compounds in a setup like this, where say you use a hot track compound on one inner and one outer, in opposite calipers, and a cooler street compound on the other sides. Sliding calipers should level out the wear, and one on each side of the rotor should even out the temperature. I can see where this could give you extended heat range in your brakes, decent cold stopping and extended resistance to high temp fade.

[67_ShortFleet]

What do you suggest for wheels? I really want Forgeline, but they are spendy. What is an economical wheel that will handle the abuse of autocross? What diameter should I run?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 67_ShortFleet

What do you suggest for wheels? I really want Forgeline, but they are spendy. What is an economical wheel that will handle the abuse of autocross? What diameter should I run?

Weld Racing has a forged series that's popular for those not on a top tier budget.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by 67_ShortFleet

What do you suggest for wheels? I really want Forgeline, but they are spendy. What is an economical wheel that will handle the abuse of autocross? What diameter should I run?

The $64,000 question. For true performance, there are two factors. Strength and weight. Wheel and tire weight is the worst weight on the truck. Un-Sprung and rotating. Forgeline is popular for this reason. CCW, Formula 43, and Raceline are some more. Size may play a factor in wheel choice. Enkie makes a very strong and light wheel, but they don't make them very big. When it comes to size, part of that is for the 'look'. For the performance side, I would size to the current trend in tires. That would be 18" or 19". Do your homework on what tire sizes are available, and for what cars (corvettes, Vipers and suck) because the tire companies will not leave these customers hangin, not true for a C10 racer who likes 335/30/18's - we're just not plentiful enough for them to care. If I was doing a fresh build (without $$ concern) I would go 19x11 all around and run the Bridgestone RE-71 in a 305 (measures as wide as most 325's). Back in reality, my current new build "Goldy", a perf/driver, is on 20 x 10 Coys with 295 BFG's. Caution, many guys with 20's that are auto-Xin gwish they had 18's for better tire choice. Let us know.

[67seaten]

hey Rob
i wanna run 20x10s as well, whats the plan for inner fenders

[Ddkeeler]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Your biggest hurdle is rear Un-Sprung weight. that is, the total weight of all the components that are not supported by the suspension (springs). This would include the rear axle, brakes, wheels, tires, U-bolt hadrware and plates, and half of the leaf springs and shocks. Lets say there is 1400 lbs total rear wt., and, your rear un=sprung wt is appx 600 lbs. That means that the 'spung' weight on the rear axle is appx 800 lbs. So, your rear un-sprung weight percentage is close to 75% of sprung weight. This = disaster in the suspension world. 50% is the max for anything that handles. To get there, you could A) add 400 lbs to the rear sprung weight (this is why duallys ride better with 1000 lb of crap in the bed), or, B) swap to a lightweight 9" and 4-bar, and light weight wheels/tires. - I know, neither of these is going to happen. - But, now you know what your up against. Go with big sway bars and good shocks (try off roar pre runner valve styles) don't worry too much about the springs.

So if you have flipped the axle does this change the unsprung weight of the axle?

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by 67seaten

hey Rob
i wanna run 20x10s as well, whats the plan for inner fenders

Well, fab or modify your own, Slosh Tubbs, or Munssey design.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by Ddkeeler

So if you have flipped the axle does this change the unsprung weight of the axle?

Nope, changing the position of the mounting doesn't change the weight percentage.

[Bowtie001]

I want to relocate my tie rod onto the bottom of the spindle for bump steer issues relating to my new front end geometry.

Many kits are available which are a sleeve with a taper in it that you weld into a hole you drill in the spindle. You turn the existing tapered hole into a cylinder, put an insert in so the taper is reversed, and then weld it in.

These kits are all marketed for applications, mostly 4x4 rock crawling stuff.

"Fits JK"

"Fits TJ"

"Fits Dodge 1 ton"

"Fits GM 1 ton"

"Fits dana 60 1 ton"

I don't know, and can't seem to find, which taper we have (My truck is a 72 1/2 ton GMC) and what tapers match that.

Help???

[shortoldracer]

Hi Everyone - newbee here to the website. I come from a circle track background, so this forum is my cup of tea. I raced for the last 20 years with my mini stock and it was old technology. So I'm not up to date on a lot of the new technology. I'm just starting a build on a 1953 Chevy Sidestep PU. It's an old build that was started 12 years ago (by someone else) and was never finished, or been on the road. My original plan was to just update the existing chassis, but for some DUMB reason they coated the entire chassis with LINEX bed covering! I now plan on updating most of the running gear and have been checking out complete chassis manufacturers. All have brake options and rotor sizes, but don't give any details on the specifics of each kit included. When you checkout Willwood's site it's looking for a specific vehicle, but since this is a hot rod, the only generic category would be GM. Several chassis mfg's use Willwood spindles, but that's as much information they show. I would like to do coilover's with double adjustable shocks.

My questions are:
Radial or lug mounted - which way to go (advantage/disadvantage) and which is better for unsprung weight? The old stuff on my truck weighs a ton! My guess it was done 2005? Looks like early Mustang II?
4 or 6 piston caliper? I expect the truck weight to be about 3500#.
Currently has American Racer 17" 505 rims and Toyo Proxes T1R 255/45 ZR17 Tires (Very Heavy)
I may do some light autocross just for fun, but I want it to handle, ride nice, and be safe!

Sorry for the mini book, but I thought I'd provide the background! Any thoughts or suggestions would be very appreciated.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by shortoldracer

Hi Everyone - newbee here to the website. I come from a circle track background, so this forum is my cup of tea. I raced for the last 20 years with my mini stock and it was old technology. So I'm not up to date on a lot of the new technology. I'm just starting a build on a 1953 Chevy Sidestep PU. It's an old build that was started 12 years ago (by someone else) and was never finished, or been on the road. My original plan was to just update the existing chassis, but for some DUMB reason they coated the entire chassis with LINEX bed covering! I now plan on updating most of the running gear and have been checking out complete chassis manufacturers. All have brake options and rotor sizes, but don't give any details on the specifics of each kit included. When you checkout Willwood's site it's looking for a specific vehicle, but since this is a hot rod, the only generic category would be GM. Several chassis mfg's use Willwood spindles, but that's as much information they show. I would like to do coilover's with double adjustable shocks.

My questions are:
Radial or lug mounted - which way to go (advantage/disadvantage) and which is better for unsprung weight? The old stuff on my truck weighs a ton! My guess it was done 2005? Looks like early Mustang II?
4 or 6 piston caliper? I expect the truck weight to be about 3500#.
Currently has American Racer 17" 505 rims and Toyo Proxes T1R 255/45 ZR17 Tires (Very Heavy)
I may do some light autocross just for fun, but I want it to handle, ride nice, and be safe!

Sorry for the mini book, but I thought I'd provide the background! Any thoughts or suggestions would be very appreciated.

Welcome to the board. here's some info that may help. The Wilwood "Pro Spindle" is basically a Mustang II spindle. It has been designed with a bolt-on steering arm, and set up for a Wilwood Caliper mount to bolt to easily, but the rest of the geometry is OE MII. IMHO, they missed the mark. This spindle format could have been offered with a choice of steering arms, or a separate UBJ mount to change spindle height and/or KPI, but no, it's plain MII. Keep that in mind, because if the spindle is MII based, and so is the rack and pinion, that forces the suspension to follow the MII geometry.
As to the difference in caliper mounts, the weight is to close to worry about for street use. Personally, I prefer lug mount, but many tout the advantage of the radial mount of getting the caliper perfectly centered and/or less flex. I haven't seen an advantage either way, and the lug mount is a little simpler, so K.I.S.S. - it works for me.

[shortoldracer]

Thanks for the info Rob. I was hoping you would see this post. I'm at pg 30 of this thread, so I have a little more reading to do. I've been impressed with your chassis, especially the "Big 10", it reminds of a late model I help build in 1994. I may be calling you in the next couple of days.

New question. On the Willwood site under some of the "Fitment" category they list Willwood? Can you explain what they are indicating? I see on the No Limit site you list, as an example, "No Limit / Wilwood 13" Rotor 4 Piston", does that mean this is made exclusively for no limit engineering?

Another question. The existing hub/rotors on the truck are very heavy, Lug mount type. Are the one's sold today lighter than the old ones I have? probably 2007 vintage when they were purchased. There are no markings on them to identify the mfg!

Thank in advance

[Hop]

Not sure if this has been addressed. looking to add coil overs. Are new upper and lower control arms required or will the current setup met my needs. 64 Step Side 2 1/2 spindle w/3 in drop spring in front, 4 in drop spring in rear. I want to lower the vehicle another inch all around without changing much.

[mcmlxix]

Originally Posted by Hop

Not sure if this has been addressed. looking to add coil overs. Are new upper and lower control arms required or will the current setup met my needs. 64 Step Side 2 1/2 spindle w/3 in drop spring in front, 4 in drop spring in rear. I want to lower the vehicle another inch all around without changing much.

Check out this video. It's designed for a Chevelle but will give you an idea how to mount some coil over in the front of the truck.... You'll see the space needed and your upper arms probably won't work. The lowers could be made to fit a center mount lower shock but strength and longevity would be called into question on a factory stamped arm.

https://youtu.be/yYhvHzN3B-g

There's companies that make arms, check to see what Rob from No Limit offers and RideTech comes to mind as well. Michigan Metal will make custom arms (and uprights for that matter) www.michiganmetalworks.com

[aggie91]

Originally Posted by Hop

Not sure if this has been addressed. looking to add coil overs. Are new upper and lower control arms required or will the current setup met my needs. 64 Step Side 2 1/2 spindle w/3 in drop spring in front, 4 in drop spring in rear. I want to lower the vehicle another inch all around without changing much.

Originally Posted by mcmlxix

Check out this video. It's designed for a Chevelle but will give you an idea how to mount some coil over in the front of the truck.... You'll see the space needed and your upper arms probably won't work. The lowers could be made to fit a center mount lower shock but strength and longevity would be called into question on a factory stamped arm.

https://youtu.be/yYhvHzN3B-g

There's companies that make arms, check to see what Rob from No Limit offers and RideTech comes to mind as well. Michigan Metal will make custom arms (and uprights for that matter) www.michiganmetalworks.com

RideTech makes a complete coil over suspension for the '63-'72 Chevy Trucks. I believe that the front set up is also offered separately.

http://www.ridetech.com/store/product-3296.html