Beelzeburb, The Story More Than a Decade in the Making

[jbclassix]

Engine looks awesome! ride height looks awesome! your rear axle pinion angle looks the same as mine was. Didn't really have any issues, other than drive shaft was too long.

[Beelzeburb]

Someone moved the dirt and construction debris piles around at my suspension flex testing ground. Still, this time I brought along both the camera and a tape measure to gather some data and observations. Here's as much movement as this little dirt mound could muster:




I was able to get one rear tire pushed up pretty far into the wheelwell and 1 1/2” away from the plywood of the floor. On the compressed side, this left about 8” between the bottom of the frame and the new U-bolt plates (which look like nice big targets for some new bumpstops to hit).



I'm probably going to order a pair of the longer 11 1/4” Daystar Stinger bumpstops and make some sort of a mount that bolts to the side of the frame. As is plainly visible, the stock rear bumpstops aren't even close to being effective anymore. The rear tires do center nicely in the wheelwell under full stuff though. Nothing else seems to hang up, bind, restrict or limit at this degree of flex. As soon as the new wheels and tires are on, then I'll take it to another local area that I've got in mind to get some more thorough articulation testing accomplished.

Originally Posted by hgs_notes

The engine bay looks outstanding. Thats a lot of suspension work. Hope that caster angle doesn't come back to bite you.

Originally Posted by jbclassix

Engine looks awesome! ride height looks awesome! your rear axle pinion angle looks the same as mine was. Didn't really have any issues, other than drive shaft was too long.

Thanks! As far as the caster angle, I'm still waffling about taking the shims out or changing them for some less angled ones, but it does seem to be working fine as is. Guess I'll just keep driving it and see if anything comes up.

[Beelzeburb]

*preparing best impersonation of George Takei as Mr. Sulu*

"Oh my!"

[hgs_notes]

[Beelzeburb]

Wheels and tires. Aside from a shiny paint job they probably add the greatest visual appeal to a vehicle. Getting just the right stance, together with the look of the wheel/tire package and tying it all together in a practical manner to accomplish a certain function takes a lot of racking the old noodle. I already chose incorrectly once, with my 240Z. It was the first time I'd ever purchased tires and I simply chose a size based on very little research. I've had to live with tires that are too small (and they look it on the car), too narrow, wear out too quickly and that cause the speedometer to read too fast. This time I made sure to do my homework.

I knew that I wanted a 35” tire. Anything bigger and the body would need some extensive modifications for clearance (it already looks like I'll be trimming the rear of the front fenders), not to mention beefing up the axles, brakes, etc.... I also didn't want the tires to be too wide from both a looks and legal standpoint. In the state of Utah, the lift laws state that the tread can't stick out beyond the edge of the fender. The speedometer wasn't an issue in the Suburban because both it and the transmission computer can each be reprogrammed very easily. Another big consideration was tread style. I eventually decided on an all-terrain instead of a mud-terrain. As is, I have open diffs front and rear for now and don't plan on spending the majority of my time off-road. The all terrains would last longer, be quieter, have more grip in wet/icy conditions but sacrifice off-road traction. In the midst of searching through magazine back issues (I have 4WORs going back to 1994), websites and reading reviews I found the Mickey Thompson ATZ all-terrain tires. The treadwear warranty was good, weight rating was excellent and they looked pretty beefy too. Appearances certainly count when making a decision like this.

I had already purchased the 16x10 Wheel Vintiques steelies last year (see post 133). I went with steel for the combination of strength, longevity and low cost. The only other material I would have considered was forged aluminum which is lightweight and strong but pricey. As an added bonus the steel wheels fit a stock hubcap and look more period correct. My only concern was that at 10” wide they'd look too wide and/or snag on rocks off road. I combed through a whole gaggle of photos of trucks and Jeeps riding on 35” tires with 10” wide wheels to reassure myself that they'd probably turn out okay. The only reason I didn't buy the tires sooner was because I needed some money, so when a good sized freelance gig paid off recently the first purchase I made came from tirebuyer.com because they had the lowest price I could find online and offered free shipping to my door.

These are 315/75-16 Baja ATZ tires. They really do measure out at 34.6” tall unladen, they're rated for 3195 lbs ea. max load @ 50 psi and the tread is extra deep for long wear. The reviews were almost overwhelmingly positive for them, but one unknown were the sidewalls. It seems there have been about three different designs over time. There was the original design, the redesign with “Sidebiters” and if you ordered a tire over 13.5” wide or to fit an 18”+ wheel (Specialty Light Truck, or SLT size) then they came with even more aggressive “Sidebiters”. To confuse things even further, each website that sold the tire had a different version of the sidewall pictured and some incorrectly showed the ATZ plus which has a completely different tread pattern. When the tires did show up, thy looked exactly the same as the official picture on the Mickey Thompson website, not the old style or the extra grabtastic SLT version, but the regular sidewall with regular “Sidebiters”. The date codes put my tires at just over 3 months old. The photos don't really do these things justice at all. They look much more aggressive in person.

Fed-Ex dropped them off up yesterday and I weighed one tire with one wheel. 63.3 lbs for the tire and 34.8 lbs for the wheel makes just over 98 lbs per corner. Its a little more than the old 295/75/16 BFG A/Ts on 16” Dodge wheels; those weighed in at 83.3 lbs per corner. This morning I had all four new tires mounted and balanced and then brought everything home to put on myself. Two of them took quite a bit of weight (14 1/4 oz. on one) and the other pair took closer to 3 oz. to balance. I haven't had any vibrations though.

Okay, picture time.

Side-by-side:



Lincoln? Oh Mr. Lincoln where are you?



The rear hubcaps are soooooooo close to fitting. If I can make the concave bowtie area become convex instead then it'll work. The front hubcaps will of course need the centers cut out to clear the Warn Premium hubs.



Later this week I'll be out flexin' and measuring for the new bumpstops again, so these on-pavement photos will have to suffice for now.




I was out driving around without having checked the air pressures yet, so in those photos they were still at the inflation level the tire shop had chosen, 40 psi. I aired them down to 30 but it probably isn't low enough yet. Just one of those things you have to keep an eye on. Also, a note on road noise. I've only had them up to 55 mph so far, but above 40 mph there is an audible hum/whine that wasn't present with the old shoes. It is very quiet and not at all intrusive or annoying but present nonetheless. I don't have a stereo in the Suburban yet, so all I have to listen for are odd new noises. Another note, this one on width. They stick out 1/4” beyond the top edge of the front fender, so I think I'll be okay with Johnny Law. Oh, and a funny encounter. My first stop after mounting the new tires was the gas station. While filling up I saw a guy walk past, do a double take and then come over to chat with me about my “cool old wagon”. That hadn't ever happened with the old tires. Now if I could somehow transfer my Suburban's attractive force from middle aged men who own '71 3/4 tons to cute girls instead then I'd be set.

[Mr Pops]

Nice combo! Perfect size tires for those rims. Also love the rims. Let me know how the attention transfer works..

[jbclassix]

I love it! My wife doesn't but I think I am going to put my foot down on the lift and tires. I may do 305's on 16X8's... But I am definitely staying in the air like yours!

[jeffg1010]

Glad to see you finally got them on. They look GREAT! I'd love a set for my Burb...maybe one day.

[1985-GMC]

You just made the burb 100x cooler adding those wheels to it!

You could cut the outer rim of the rear caps and add a 1/2" strip to it then weld them back together to give you enough offset...

[Beelzeburb]

I whole heartedly agree with everyone becuase I think they look great too. Very glad all the research seems to have paid off with something that'll work properly.

It might be a little while longer until I get out and cycle the suspension because I've got a leaking right rear wheel cylinder. I already ordered a new AC Delco unit, but its a special order part and will take extra time to arrive. When I had the old wheels off I pulled the wet rear drum and confirmed my suspicions. At least that explains why one rear tire was locking up before the other under heavy braking.

Originally Posted by 1985-GMC

You could cut the outer rim of the rear caps and add a 1/2" strip to it then weld them back together to give you enough offset...

Hmmmmm, I might consider doing that if I can't pop them out like the safety seal lid on a jar instead.

[Beelzeburb]

I don't think I've ever mentioned this, but my Grandfather on my mother's side actually bought a '72 C-10 Suburban brand new and it was the family car for many years. The whole family took numerous roadtrips in it and my mom as well as each of my uncles learned to drive in the two tone ochre wonder wagon. Each time one of my uncles are in town they make a point of opening and closing the doors on mine just to remember the sound they make. Well, I bring this up because I finally have a photo of the old Suburban. We were at my grandparent's place on Saturday and he asked me to help set up a slide scanner they've had for years but hadn't ever used. I know that there are more pictures of the old girl in their shoeboxes full of family vacation slides, but this is all I had time to get today. I don't know the exact year, but it was taken in Sequoia National Park some time in the early seventies.



And just for fun we have the '67 Chevy truck my grandfather used as an all around hunting/hauling rig. This photo was taken in late '68 outside my great grandparent's place in Long Beach.



Now if only somewhere in the boxes there was a slide of the Olds F-85 convertible or the Corvair Lakewood wagon he had before the Suburban. That'd be pretty awesome.

[VA72C10]

Very cool! Thanks for sharing that!

[Cameron 1137]

^^ x2, I love seeing old pics of our trucks (and corvairs too )
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[hgs_notes]

Nice pics.

[jbclassix]

I love those pictures! This year we plan on going to see the Sequoias as a family. My wife was born and raised in CA and has never been there! I keep teasing her because she drives a Sequoia and has never seen one!

[Beelzeburb]

What better way to break in new tires than by visiting the world class rock crawling/recreation park 10 miles from your house? At least it makes removing mold parting lines and those little rubber nubs more exciting.



Moments later I discovered why there are companies that make extra thick differential covers. Luckily I only pranged the bottom of the front diff and my factory stamped steel cover is fine. Well, perhaps I should backtrack a little. My last update said that a new wheel cylinder was on its way. It finally showed up this week along with the Daystar Stinger bumpstops.

Here's the backing plate stripped bare. This was after I'd already cleaned a lot of accumulated goop out. Looks like it'd had a leaking passenger side wheel cylinder for a number of miles on the C20 this axle came out of.



I made plenty of trips to the other rear wheel to ensure that all of those springs and plates wound up back in the right spots.



While I was in the vicinity, the new stainless rear axle hardlines found their way on. This of course necessitated more brake bleeding. I thought we had all the bubbles out yesterday, but the pedal went straight to the floor on the first drive around the block. Today I was helping a buddy of mine set the timing on his '91 Acura, so in return he pumped the pedal and we ran nearly the entire contents of a bottle of brake fluid through which helped immensely. With the brakes back to normal I drove the Suburban out on the highway and found some mile markers to re-calibrate the speedometer to the new tire size. Since I was already close anyway, a quick side trip to the recreation area seemed like a good idea. I had already started fabbing up the mounts for my Stingers with tube sourced from a local machine shop, so now I needed some definitive measurements for mounting height.



So I found a nice little rock to help in my quest for articulated enlightenment.



One of these days I'll get a new inner grille that isn't broken because mine flops around. Maybe I'll even bolt the front fenders on completely too. I digress though. I spent a long time observing, measuring and photographing the undercarriage in this position. This was the most flex I could achieve before the passenger side rear wheel started lifting off the ground (a fun feeling when inside the vehicle).



I had been prepared to tastefully slice and dice the front fenders if they made contact with the tires. From what I saw here and later in a sandy wash where I could get the driver side tire stuffed into the wheel well and then turn it back and forth, it seems there will be no need for front end metal surgery. I simply couldn't get the 35 inch tires to hit anything. Speaking of the tires, I noticed that the sidewalls flexed decently and those tread lugs seemed to grab the rocks pretty well.



This was still at the street pressure of 30 psi, so I can only imagine what kind of grip 18-20 psi would bring. Another new development was taking place in the rear. Even though these new tires are wider than the old ones, the new wheel offset meant that they could be pushed up a tiny little bit further into the wheel well in back.



If I was going for outright articulation then I might consider mini-tubs, going with a wider rear axle or at very least adding some wheel spacers and custom 56” Alcan leaf packs (after flipping the ORD shackle brackets from left to right). As is, I'm happy to compromise on flex in order to have load and people hauling capacity. With this in mind I measured for the final bumpstop compressed length to keep any wheel/body interference to a minimum in the future.

Everything else checked out okay. I'm nowhere near the end of the shock travel in the rear, and there are a few inches to spare in front also. Those stiff springs may never let me get close to the bumpstops up there though. The brake line lengths look fine so far, driveshafts seem okay at all angles and nothing else was binding. I was learning about the joys of factory steering linkage off road though. Now I know why those crossover kits are so popular.

It was time to try some other rocks.



It was fun getting back in the Suburban after that picture. The bottom of the door was at armpit height on me.

Moments later:



I made it up that rock just fine, it only required a little extra momentum. Lockers are on my wishlist but it'll be a while before they wind up on the havelist. First item of business is finishing all the small items the Suburban still needs, like weatherstripping (I have all new stuff in bags ready to go), interior, rust repair, etc... Then comes recovery equipment which I've been stocking up on recently, but more on that in the near future. After that it'll be an onboard air system and then locker time. So many plans, so little money, time, fill in the rest....

I was about ready to leave when I spotted a few local guys in a highly modified Bronco and XJ that were packing up to head home, so I stopped to ask for some pointers for areas to play on. We checked out each others rigs for a while (they dug the Suburban). The Bronco was running the same basic Dana 60 rear axle as me, so I quizzed him about his axle spline count. He was running 35 spline shafts in a non HD housing, something I've been wanting to do for some time. They clued me in that the same machine shop where I'd picked up the tubing for my Stinger mounts had bored out his axle housing to accommodate the 1.5” diameter shafts for about 100 bones. Now I know where I'm going when that time comes.

One last story for today. Since I got new shoes all around there was no need for the 10 year old BFGs on Dodge wheels anymore. They lasted a week on Craigslist before someone called me out of Vegas. He said they were coming my way and would like to buy the set. I got another call once they hit town and proceeded to give them directions from the Wal-Mart they were at to my house. Well, they looked over the set, didn't haggle over price and we made a deal there and then. Now, there were four 33” tires that weighed 83 lbs a piece which we rolled across the driveway over to a Chevy Cobalt filled with occupants. Turns out they'd stopped at the Wal-Mart and bought a pack of 4 ratcheting tie-down straps. We threw all four tires on the roof and they ran the straps over each pair, down through the open door and hooked back onto themselves under the headliner inside. When they told me their plan to drive on to Ely, Nevada that night I told them “Well, it'll probably whistle like mad” which we all laughed about despite it being true. Too bad it was so dark out, or that really would have been a great picture of the little Cobalt with the smashed roof and four big 'ol tires on top.

[hgs_notes]

Looking great. If you are really going to wheel it though and don't have the money for a locker, just weld the spider gears or drop in a spool. My lock-right it stuck in the locked position on my C-10 and it's not really a bother to drive. Just a little wheel chirping on the turns. You can always do lockers later.

The tire story reminds me of when I sold 3 35" BFG's on craigslist. The guy was not local, but I had some work in his area so I said that if he wanted them for sure I'd bring them up with me. I had them stuffed in my taurus, 2 in the trunks, one in the back seat. If there had been a 4th tire I don't think I could have fit it in. Good buyer though, he gave me a little extra for hauling them up.

[Beelzeburb]

Thanks hgs. I actually have considered going the "Lincoln locker" route. The only thing that's held me back is wet, icy, or snowy winter driving. In deep snow it seems like it'd be great, but not on a road that hasn't been plowed or salted and its all packed solid into a slick mess (for example). I've read other people's pros and cons, but have you been out in the C-10 much during winters there?
My long term plan for the rear axle is to do the 35 spline upgrade together with a selectable locker at the same time (need a new carrier anyway when changing spline count). I like the axle ratio, so it'll probably stay 4.10 ring & pinion. For now I'm content with finding out what the Suburban can do. This is the first rig I've had with a lift, bigger tires, decent gearing and lots-o-torque. It was fun today experiencing a few things firsthand that had only been academic concepts before. I DD a Jeep Cherokee that's almost completely stock and I've been plenty of places with it that amazed the people riding along, but there was still a certain limit. Next time I go out and try something like this in the Suburban I'll have to bring a spotter. That should speed things up a bit and let me try some new stuff with more confidence.

[hgs_notes]

Nope, don't take mine out on the icy roads here. They use salt on them and it took me forever to fix mine up and paint it. Not going to start over again in a few years. As long as you know how to drive in those conditions, it shouldn't be a problem. And it is just temporary. Kind of like owning a 1 ton dually. Most people only need that kind of truck for a small percentage of their driving, the rest of the time they could get by with a geo metro. In your case you would want it to be a locker when you are off road, but you live with it in that same configuration the other 95% of the time because thats what you need for the 5% (or less).

I'm really not trying to push you into this. You already know what you want and what your options are. With that long wheel base though, I'd move rock sliders up on the wish list pretty high. You don't want to deal with serious crunch into the door bottoms on that rig.

[Beelzeburb]

That's cool, I knew what you meant hgs_notes As far as rocker sliders go, I agree completely. Been thinking of perhaps using 2x4 'square' tube for the main part, tied with round to plates welded on the frame. I'd also like to do something to protect those rear quarters too. It'll be tricky protecting the rock prone areas without detracting from the clean, original lines of the body though. The first small piece of armor will be the transfer case skidplate because its completely unprotected right now. That's part of the reason I climbed that last rock, to have a look at how vulnerable it was down there. I have some used skid plates from other trucks and one in particular looks like it'll be really close with a little tweaking.

[thirdstreettito]

Lovin it!

[Beelzeburb]

Just this week I won an Ebay auction for a pair of ‘73-’80 style front tow hooks, so the Suburban will finally have solid front and rear recovery points very soon. Today I laid out the majority of the recovery/repair/get back home in one piece gear that’s now specifically designated for the Suburban.



Not sure the best way to separate this, but let’s start at top left and work our way to the right.

Extreme top left: Spare wiper blades, zip ties, spare hoses (fuel, vacuum, heater, etc...), ice scraper/brush.

Left side, top to bottom: 2 metal Blitz 5 gallon fuel cans with one flexible metal nozzle, one 6 gallon water can, automotive fluids including motor oil, gear oil and ATF (forgot to include power steering and brake fluids together with wheel bearing grease) aerosol cans of starting fluid & carb cleaner, orange box with three road triangles. Tree Hugger 10’ tree strap, Big Bubba 1 1/4” x 30’ kinetic recovery rope. Small funnel, frisbee, Warn receiver shackle mount w/ 3/4” shackle, two Crosby 7/8” shackles, two long spark plug wires and one coil wire. Spare spark plugs, coil, ignition module, cap, rotor, fuel pump, IAC motor, ECT sensor, fuses and bulbs. Hub engagement tool, pen, maps and atlas. Spare upper & lower radiator hoses, spare serpentine belt, self vulcanizing silicone tape, duct tape, electrical tape, brass tire pressure gauge, PowerTank tire repair kit, super duper jumper cables

Middle vertical divider, top to bottom: MaxAx tool (ax, shovel, hoe, pick), all cast Hi-Lift with handle keeper (to stop it from clanking around all the time), bumper lift attachment and off-road base

Right side, top to bottom: 18’ of 5/16” chain with chain hook ends, tire iron, two 2.5 lb extinguishers (one is a very nice B&C unit charged with Halotron and the other is a cheap ABC from the hardware store), wool blanket, flashlights, headlamp, glow sticks, space blanket, leather work gloves, snow gloves, water purifier, shop rags, electrical wire, garbage bags, 2 light duty ratcheting tie-down straps for securing stuff, 1 heavy duty ratcheting tie-down strap for compressing suspension or reseating tire on bead, one 15’ extremely light duty tow only strap with metal hook ends, one proper 25’ recovery strap, well stocked first aid kit, pair of tire chocks and cheap 12V tire inflator/flashlight (best I’ve got until I buy an OBA solution)

Extreme top right: tools in the truck tool box

Leaving out the fluids, their containers and the road triangle kit (which is 11 lbs all by itself and which I’ve never really had a need for), all of that weighs in at 181 lbs. That’s pretty much the weight of one extra passenger. The toolbox full of tools is the single heaviest item coming in at 40.1 lbs. Of course, not all of this stuff will be in the vehicle at all times. Some of it would be more apropos on a long back country excursion, other stuff is there in case of a general break down, fire or first-aid and some is purely recovery equipment. A lot of these things I’d rather were in the vehicle with me off road instead of regretting having left them at home though. This is mostly stuff that could come in handy over the long run, through multiple stages of potential future upgrades and various adventures.

I don’t currently have a place for the fuel containers because if I were to carry them then they’d stay outside the vehicle. Been there, done that and stunk to high heaven because I carried a plastic gas can inside the vehicle on a trip once. I’m working on finding ways to store and secure the rest of it inside the Suburban. All of the small items pack very well within three 3 gallon Rubbermaid Roughneck containers that sit nice and snug under the middle seat together with the Bubba Rope and Tree Hugger (not pictured).



The fire extinguishers will be solidly mounted in plain view with one in front and one in the back (well, I’ll ditch the Kidde hardware store special once I acquire a 5-10 lb halotron unit for the rear). I did buy some 1/8” bar to fab up a couple of solid mounting points on the interior for my Hi-Lift. It should fit nicely under one of those long rear windows. That leaves the tool box, one 10 gallon Roughneck container and the MaxAx free floating until I find good places to secure them. Don’t want any of that stuff flying around in case of a crash or roll. Not that I’m planning on doing either of those things mind you. Not that I want to run right out and get stuck in some deep mud either , but I do really want to see the Big Bubba in action. That thing is super beefy and comes with its own carrying bag.



That isn’t some miniature roll of duct tape either. This rope has a 52,300 lb breaking strength.

[1985-GMC]

Now THAT is a rope!

[low'n slow]

I love it.

[mosesburb]

Don't forget a shovel (I have--it turned in to a real bad day because of it).

Also, I don't know if you have used that green water jug much, but on the one I have the vent plug will pop out while driving and water down anything it can get close to--sleeping bags, clothes, etc. May want to tape it down or get water jugs with screw on vent caps.

Nice setup though. I like how most of it packs under the seat. Makes planning/loading for a trip alot easier when you don't have to remember this or that because it is always in the truck.