Bob's Retirement Build - My '55 TF

[_Ogre]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

What do you think about using only a 1-mil plastic film between the mold and the 'glass? I didn't want to use anything that would pucker up under the 'glass.

i'm not sure if your making a mold or if your just glassing a one off headliner in place
most of my glass was done in place over cardboard with tape and paste wax
or free form using a space frame and cloth

the plastic may pucker (look at 3rd pic down) and/or dissolve when the resin is applied
the easiest way is to cover everything with masking tape, smooth the tape as well as you can
then use pva mold release (expensive and only available in specialty stores) or
do and ogre and just use paste wax, use a couple coats of wax and the pattern should release

if you can get an edge to come up, shoot some compressed air under the pattern to finish the job
you'll need 4 or 5 layers of 3/4oz mat to keep an area that large from warping or breaking

i used many rolls of waxed tape on truk when doing the glass





when i made the tonneau cover i tried taping waxed foil to a wooden form
this is what i ended up with, it took a lot to make it paint ready



here's the cardboard and waxed tape buck i made for the radiator cover

[DransportGarage]

Thanks much for the response, Ogre.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

i'm not sure if your making a mold or if your just glassing a one off headliner in place <snip>

Yeah. Me neither. I guess I'm modifying the "place", then glassing a one off headliner. I will be pulling it out to upholster it.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

<snip> most of my glass was done in place over cardboard with tape and paste wax <snip>

I had forgotten about the tape/paste wax trick! I'm headed to Indy today to a swap meet. I'll be picking up plenty of tape. I'm going to trim back the plastic sheet that's under the mud, cover it completely with mud, then tape & wax.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

<snip> if you can get an edge to come up, shoot some compressed air under the pattern to finish the job <snip>

Another great tip! In the middle, the drywall mud will release from the roof before the 'glass will. Then hopefully I'll be able to just peel the tape/mud away from the glass.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

<snip> you'll need 4 or 5 layers of 3/4oz mat to keep an area that large from warping or breaking <snip>

I'm using 10 oz. cloth. After I bought it, a friend of mine told me he has an entire roll (say "free"). I'll do as many layers as it takes. When I'm done I plan to make some small sheet metal standoffs, epoxy them to the inside of the roof, then hold the headliner in place with industrial-strength velcro. I'll measure the thickness of the drywall mud in various locations to figure out how tall to make the standoffs.

I've used your free-form technique to make my console and dash skirts. Sure do miss the Fiberglass Forum that went belly-up a couple of years ago, but you filled me in very nicely!

[_Ogre]

with the convex shape of the roof don't try big sheets of cloth/mat or you'll get wrinkles
i used 6''x6'' pieces for the tonneau cover, down to 2''x2'' pieces for some of the console parts

[_Ogre]

if you get tired of counting hardener drops...
i typically made resin batches in 4 to 8 oz batches, i bought mixing cups on ebay
and this $6 scale was used to weigh the resin to add hardener at 1% to 2% by weight
for 300 grams of resin i'd add 3 grams of hardener, instead of counting out 60 drops
i'd adjust the ratio based on how fast it kicked or the temp in my shop that day

[DransportGarage]

Ogre, Thanks for the tip on doing the corners. At a minimum I'll slit the cloth a time or two. If it doesn't lay down when dry I'll try the cut & paste. As you know, the serrated roller doesn't go into the corners well either.

...and on quick-mixing the MEK & resin, I have a scale exactly like that -- and, I didn't think of it on my own.

[DransportGarage]

And now for the day's activities: By the time I got back from the swap meet (which sucked, BTW) the garage had been at 72 degrees for 24 hours and the drywall mud did NOT come anywhere near drying. I believe that, when used on drywall, the gypsum board sucks the moisture out of the joint compound. In my case, the plastic held the moisture in (and a bare roof would have done the same thing). I tried a high-powered hair dryer and although it seemed to help a little bit, this was going to take days.

Using the 1-mil plastic was a fail in general -- although I would have made it work -- It slid around too much and would have caused cracking of the mud at the edges.

Take 2: I ripped out what I had done, re-cleaned the roof underside, then covered the inside of the roof with duct tape:


The reason I used the duct tape is that I bought 3 large rolls at the swap meet for $5 (like $1.66 each). I know it'll be fine under the mud, but I'll be doing a test tomorrow to see how happy it is with resin poured on it. I may have to switch to masking tape. (Have you had any experience whith duct tape Ogre?)

What I've learned since yesterday is that there's this mud called "setting-type joint compound" that has as one of its ingredients plaster of Paris. It dries chemically rather than by air drying. Tomorrow I'll smear some of that schmutz around and see if I can complete the mold. My Lowes has 3 drying speeds: 20, 45 and 90 minute. I was lucky enough to run into a drywaller at the store and he claims that it's a lot faster than that, so I got the 90 minute. Tomorrow should be interesting...

[_Ogre]

i'm still not sure what your trying to accomplish with the drywall/plaster
if you do get the plaster poured and pull the plug; what then?
if you fiberglass over the plaster plug the fiberglass will be too big to fit in the roof

i have used plaster of paris to make a mold, yes it does dry fast and works well
it is very brittle, even on small pieces it helps to embed some reinforcement in the plaster
some wire mesh and a few handles will allow you to pull the plaster off

using duct tape vs masking: masking tape comes off easier
sometimes even with proper waxing the tape comes off with the glass
you will probably destroy the glass before pulling the duct tape off

As you know, the serrated roller doesn't go into the corners well either.

i used a roller, once.
that was enough it took me longer to clean than the job, plus it pulled up the glass
i buy 2'' chip brushes from harbor fright, i cut half the bristle length off and stipple with these

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

i'm still not sure what your trying to accomplish with the drywall/plaster
if you do get the plaster poured and pull the plug; what then?
if you fiberglass over the plaster plug the fiberglass will be too big to fit in the roof...<snip>

I want to blend the outer roof panel into the inner "perimeter" panel so the inside of the roof becomes a continuous mold. Then:
1) tape over the mold.
2) apply 'glass and build to thickness.
3) take 'glass panel out, then rip out the plaster and the rest of the tape.

You're right that there will be a gap between the inside of the roof and the new panel. I plan to install little "top hats" (standoffs) to the roof after the plaster is removed, and hold the new panel to them using velcro. I may use j-mold on the outside of the new panel, or not, depending on how well the velcro works. Of course, the new panel will be held in bu the sunvisor brackets and dome light to prevent catastrophic failure during the driving experience! The use of the standoffs will position the top at exactly the same location in which it was formed (he said).

Here's a picture of the progress. I'm in the process of erasing the black guide coat. It took about 5 minutes to sand the white portion shown in the pic. Note the piece of garden hose. It's kind of tricky block sanding a concave panel, so I'm using the piece of hose and 220 grit wet-or-dry. For rough sanding I'm using an 80-grit drywall "sponge. No dust!


It appears to have worked. I've just applied the final (3rd) coat and will wet sand it in about 2 hours. I'll let it dry overnight, then tape it and 'glass it tomorrow.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

<snip>...it helps to embed some reinforcement in the plaster
some wire mesh and a few handles will allow you to pull the plaster off...<snip>

Hmmm...too late for that. My plan is to just yank on the duct tape and off it comes. The plaster thickness is no more than 1/2" anywhere, and less than 1/4" in most places. I'll report back on how well that goes.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

<snip>...using duct tape vs masking: masking tape comes off easier
sometimes even with proper waxing the tape comes off with the glass
you will probably destroy the glass before pulling the duct tape off...<snip>

Oh, that's good news! I tried a small 'glass test piece last night. It released well and the tape appeared almost unaffected. My mileage may vary on getting a big piece to release.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

<snip>...i used a roller, once.
that was enough it took me longer to clean than the job, plus it pulled up the glass
i buy 2'' chip brushes from harbor fright, i cut half the bristle length off and stipple with these...<snip>

The trick to cleaning the roller is to keep it wet with acetone. I put the acetone in a small pan, roll the roller in it, then roll some resin, then acetone, etc. I've built 3 mid-year Corvettes that way with good results.

I will use the HF chip brush, especially in/near the corners. Cutting it off to stiffen it is a great idea!

Thanks again for all the help, Ogre! Your tips have contributed a lot to how I did other 'glass parts on the truck.

[_Ogre]

now it makes sense :doh: i was lost on the plaster/filler piece
the reinforcement would not have worked in your application, you want it to come out in pieces

i'm interested in seeing the results (now that i know what your doing)
one comment on the velcro: it's quite thick and wiggles side to side a bit
maybe 2 sided tape would work better, install once and permanent

i use velcro to hold the battery cover on behind the drivers seat, it is marginal but better than nothing

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

<snip> ...(now that i know what your doing) ... <snip>

At least one of us knows what I'm doing.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

<snip> ...(The velcro is) quite thick and wiggles side to side a bit maybe 2 sided tape would work better...<snip>

Thanks for the warning. I'm going to try the velcro with hopes that the curvature of the roof will limit the side-to-side movement. The reason I want to use the velcro is that the panel will be removed and installed to trial fit it, then removed and installed again when I apply the fabric. If the velcro doesn't work out I can revert to the 2-sided tape in the final install.

The mold is complete, but not without a few problems. The setting joint compound was ready to wet sand with 220 grit paper and an 80-grit sponge block after about two hours. It cut much quicker than body filler but not as quickly as regular joint compound. One good thing is that it doesn't "melt" when you wipe it off with a wet rag like regular joint compound does. On the downside, it doesn't feather well at the edge either, but who cares? It took three coats to get it to the desired form, a lot like working with body filler.

I let it sit overnight at 72 degrees. When I came out in the morning the edges and thin areas were a lighter color than the thicker parts -- the mud had absorbed water. After about 20 minutes with the heat gun all areas were the lighter color -- but the tape wouldn't stick AT ALL. DESPAIR.

Then I got the idea of using a flat latex paint over the mud. I painted a test patch and let it sit for four hours. The tape would sort of stick, but when pulled off it took the paint with it. I decided that it stuck well enough, and that it would work if I didn't lift the tape. I "dry-brushed" a very light coat of the flat paint over the entire area and let it sit overnight.

The thinner coat and additional drying time helped a lot. Here's a picture with a little over half of the tape applied:


I have a couple of small areas (2" x 2") where the paint has lifted, but I don't think it will be a problem. The weight of the resin will hold it down.

When I put the tape down near the back edge I used a putty knife to press the tape into the seam between the sheet metal parts:


This will give me a natural cut line when I trim the panel. I also cut two full-size pieces of 'glass cloth (not mat) tonight, and slit the corners. Tomorrow I'll put paste wax on the tape and apply 'glass and cloth. If you listen closely you'll hear the cursing...

That's it for today

[_Ogre]

did you get a spare roof or is your cab upside down?

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

did you get a spare roof or is your cab upside down?

My cab is upside down -- on the rotisserie. When I do the panel surrounding the rear window I'll take it off the rotisserie and tip it onto its back. I sure hope I don't crush any sheet metal.

Today was an OK day, I suppose. I placed three layers of 10-ounce glass cloth, making the headliner. I don't recommend using duct tape because the tape reacts with the resin, resulting in a "crinkle finish":


The good news is, the crinkle is underneath the resin for the most part. The bad news is, those 2" x 2" patches where the paint lifted, and some other areas, resulted in high spots in the finished surface. I ground them reasonably flat between the 2nd and 3rd layers...

...so I have a manageable final product: some refinishing required. I don't have a picture with the third layer applied, but it looks like the first picture in this post, only flatter.

The whole mess is taking its time drying, but I hope to trim it tomorrow, then remove it and figure out what to do next. I'll be doing a little glass work on the side toward the roof just to be sure there are no weak spots, then doing a little body work on the "business side that will accept the Ultraleather.

[_Ogre]

once the plug is pulled you can use the gap in between the roof skins to add some reinforcing ribs
i've seen rope hot glued down with some fiberglass over it, it will add a lot of strength to the panel

i did something similar with plywood on my tonneau cover
i laid the wood over the panel and fiberglassed over it

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

once the plug is pulled you can use the gap in between the roof skins to add some reinforcing ribs
i've seen rope hot glued down with some fiberglass over it, it will add a lot of strength to the panel <snip>

I'm hoping that, with appropriately-placed velcro, I won't need reinforcement. The domed shape, and the use of three layers of 10-oz. cloth really makes this thing rigid. That said, I do have a little room between the roof and the panel, so I could use the "rope trick" right where the inner roof used to accept the rubber gasket if need be. I really am surprised, though, at how little room there is between the roof and the panel.

[DransportGarage]

Here's the molded product:


...the mess underneath:


...and the panel in place after some rough trimming:

The panel released nicely and the mess wasn't nearly as bad as it looks. However, DON'T USE DUCT TAPE. Use masking tape. The duct tape leaves a gooey residue after it reacts with the resin.

Notice also that my "roof console" that holds my radio, equalizer and DVD player is now welded in place, and the headliner panel is now notched to accommodate it.

...and here's an "Indian trick" for those working with fiberglass: In order to grind the edge of the panel flush with the door opening I layed 2 layers of masking tape next to the panel, one on top of the other. Then I ground the edge down until the 36-grit 3" sanding disc just barely removed the top layer of tape. (As you look at the picture below, realize that the cab is upside down, and that you are looking down at the top of the door opening and the edge of the panel):

If you've never done this you will be amazed at how accurately this will allow you to cut the edge of the glass without hurting the adjacent area (in this case, the door opening).

This trick also comes in handy when you are making a fiberglass repair. Just surround the area to be repaired with tape, then put a second layer of tape directly over the first. Mix up the resin, then add 'glass (mat or cloth) and resin to the area. Let dry. Then grind down the repair until you just tick the top layer of tape, as in the picture above. Remove the tape, block sand the last 5 thousandths of the repair and feather. You'll be ready for high-solids primer.

So, I had my edge even with the door opening, but I really want to be 3/8" below the edge (or, because this is a roof, above the edge). I made this little fixture to draw a cut line that will help me take off the additional 3/8". I just rested the dowel against the edge of the panel and ran it around the perimeter, allowing the Sharpie to draw the cut line.:

Once the panel is upholstered this will give me about a 1/4" reveal of paint around the headliner.

Next I'll be adding a skim coat of filler to flatten the panel and get ready for upholstery.

[_Ogre]

looks good
masking tape will leave a little residue and it comes off easily

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

looks good
masking tape will leave a little residue and it comes off easily

The duct tape leaves a BUNCH of residue wherever the resin came in contact with it, and it will just barely come off with oceans of lacquer thinner.

The skim coat is on the panel. I'll be taking it to my upholstery guy for inspection, to be sure it's thick enough and flat enough to suit him, maybe Thursday. Today, however, is honey-do. Tomorrow I volunteer at EnterTRAINment Junction to play with trains (Google it!), and my hi-power rifle league convenes in the evening. Retirement is highly underrated!

[DransportGarage]

The rough bodywork on the firewall - and essentially the entire cab - is complete. With that done I was able to pull the cab off of the rotisserie and roll it onto its back.

Today I poured the headliner rear panel. Here it is with just the tape on the inside of the cab (cab on its back):



...and here's the 'glass & resin:



This was a lot easier than the headliner itself since (unlike the headliner) the net shape of the rear panel exactly matched the rear of the truck. I did 4 layers of 10 oz. cloth. I'll let this sit overnight, then pull it in the morning and trim it.

[Baldeagle SR]

Very nice work. That is going to be really neat. Rich

[Kim57]

Looks good.
Kim

[DransportGarage]

Thanks Baldeagle and Kim. You guys keep me going!

The panels are now trimmed to size and body filler work is done. Once the velcro was in place I found that it was tough to get the panels in straight. It was a lot like contact cement once the surfaces touched. So I put rags between the velcro "loop" side & "hook" side to keep them from sticking together, aligned the screws for the visors and dome light, then pulled the rags out and tapped the panels in place. Did essentially the same for the headliner rear panel around the rear window. Worked great!



The velcro is .095" thick and my Fatmat is .080" thick, so I'll have room for the sound deadener.

I taped over the velcro strips to keep them from getting contaminated, then stored the panels until upholstery time. Now it's on to the final small imperfections in the cab body, then high solids primer.

[Kim57]

Very slick.
Kim

[slammed57]

private message , check your pm....

[DransportGarage]

The winter weather is about over and I've been back in the garage off and on for about 3 weeks doing the panel fit dance from the cab forward. I suppose I've had the doors on and off 5 times and the rest of the sheet metal on and off about 30 times, I'm embarrassed to say.

As most of you know, nothing on these trucks fits like a new car to begin with, but what I figured out after about 10 assemblies and the front end almost tricked in was that every time I would tighten a critical bolt - from core support to grille bar, etc., the relationship of the fenders to the doors would change. From that point on, I'd would do a full torqued assembly, do some body work, tear it all off to do, say, the edge of the cowl, put it all back on, and get closer.

After about 20 assemblies I noticed that the crappy fender washers I was using just for fitment were distorting. That caused the the bolts to shift toward being concentric with the large fender clearance holes as the washers got sucked into them. The amount of shift was based on the amount of torque. Sheeesh!

After about 25 assemblies I noticed that the lower fenders were pulling forward, warping the fenders slightly. I'd loosen the lower fenders, the fender would spring forward, and the lower door-to-fender gap would widen. Cause? Too much shim under the core support. Took out about 1/8th of a shim on both sides and everything was OK -- except that I had to mess with the hood - again. I'll also post a pic or two once I've got the seams matched.

Anyway, things are really close now, so I better get the welding done on the lower grille bar to be sure it's warped into its final shape! See next post.

[DransportGarage]

My original grille really fit badly, and I convinced myself that I'd never get it in without ripping up the paint. ...so, I went to a billet grille. No good deed is left unpunished, so then the three pockets in the lower grille bar that used to match up to the vertical grille bars were twice as big and looked like, well, three big holes in the lower grille bar. So I made fillers for the holes, as shown below. I'll weld them in and finish them tomorrow.

EDIT: Well, this looks like another stupid move. I just looked at my buddy's '57 3100. It appears that its grille bar doesn't have the pockets. More punishment...