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#1 |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego California
Posts: 1,316
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An expensive lesson learned
As many of you know this all started with a bent push rod in my SBC on the way to the Brothers truck show in July. My work schedule is pretty tight so I have not been able to dedicate a lot of time to fixing the problem.
I did not know why the rod failed because there was no piston to valve contact and there was no damaged component other than the push rod. I ended up upgrading the valve springs and push rods, converted to threaded rocker studs and guide plates. I then wanted to inspect the timing chain to make sure it did not slip a tooth, the timing chain has about 1/2 inch slop in it, but has not slipped. The one thing that made my heart sink was when I pulled the pan on my 14,000 mi crate motor there was all kinds of microscopic shavings in the bottom. Almost looked like graphite, until you get a magnet next to it and the slivers stand on end. Now I am looking at a complete rebuild. The main bearings are shot and I am now tearing it all down to a bare block. The reason I am posting this in the general discussion and not the engine forum is because I was not planing on touching the engine during my build, it was the newest part on the truck when I started. But when it failed I when into investigation mode to figure out why it died after only 14,000 miles. As a warning for all you guys out there who think motor oil is motor oil, take it from me and my expensive lesson, that they are not. I have run most of my vehicles on Mobil One so that is what I put in the C10. After about 6 months I started hearing stories about the zinc content in the modern oils, and I thought that well I will just finish this round with the synthetic and then change to something else. Well it did not make it that far and I am paying heavily for it. The modern engines of today come standard with roller rockers and lifters, therefore the motor oil companies have reduced the zinc in the oil which helps lubricate the cam and lifters. Check the zinc in your oil. I am fortunate to live right down the road from Crower racing products and they do a lot of testing on motor oil. Just talked to them today and they said that they do not recommend any synthetic oils on flat tappet engines because they cannot guarantee damage will not occur.
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I'd rather attempt something great and fail.. than try something ordinary and succeed. Norman Vincent Peale Project: Barn Raising http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=414961 Project: 30 Be Low https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=830583 |
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#2 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Upland Ca
Posts: 4,143
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Are you saying the shavings are from the cam lobes?
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1972 C10 SWB, Air, PS, PB, 350/350THM. Second owner. 1965 Corvette roadster, 44K miles, 327/365 SHP, 4 speed, side exhaust, knockoffs, teak, second owner (bought in 1970), Have ALL numbers matching components. My frame off restoration thread: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=556703 |
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#3 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oakridge Oregon
Posts: 1,865
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Yep not the first time I've heard this. Same thing happened to a buddy's brand new big block with lots of $$$ into it.
http://www.zddplus.com/
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68 CST SWB - Gold/White 50th anniversary /TH350/Buddy Buckets/3.73 Posi/dogdish caps. 68 K10 Burb - Gold/White 327/SM465/NP205/3.73 "Daa Burb" build thread Last edited by Mt Man Chad; 10-17-2011 at 09:07 PM. |
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#4 |
Moderator
![]() Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 20,005
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I use Mobil 1 along with a zddp additive.
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1972 C/10 Cheyenne Super SWB. Restored, loaded, slammed. 1968 C/10 50th Anniversary LWB. Unrestored, stock, daily driver/work truck. RIP ElJay RIP 67ChevyRedneck RIP Grumpy Old Man |
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#5 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: DFW (Forney)
Posts: 1,529
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Happened to me once also bud, it sucks.
In any of my flat tappet engines I run Valvoline VR1 now, it has plenty of zddp in it.
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'58 SWB Fleetside...Front & Rear Porterbuilt Dropmember, 6.0 LS /4L60E. Accuair E-level, 20 Billet Specialties (Vintecs) '63 Buick Riviera ... AccuAir E-level, 20" Billet Specialties (Vintecs) http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=528853&page=5 |
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#6 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Posts: 1,370
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
Have heard this story many times on other boards. Some don't have problems. Some kill the engine in 20 miles. Sorry for the loss.
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2006 Silverado CCSB, 1939 Ford Sedan, 1962 BelAir Wagon, 1976 Vega Panel Charleston, South Carolina |
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#7 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pittsburg, KS
Posts: 2,466
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
That's what I run in flat tappet motors as well.
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Doug Looking for a 67-72 short bed driver..... |
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#8 |
Account Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: indisclosed
Posts: 1,515
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
1) Which gm crate engine is this?
a) Are you positive that the oil caused the problem?; i have a crate engine horror story as well which i can refer if/when i find the link. i'm still not totally sure what caused the rod to bend, but it started with a bent pushrod as well. You may already be familiar with my story but i will try to find the link anyways. 2) NOTE: i use redline synthetic because this is one of the few oils i can find that has enough zddp in it because all my cars have flat lifters. |
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#9 | |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego California
Posts: 1,316
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
All I know is that the pan was spick-N-span just 1000 before when I powder coated it. So all the sludge and metal shavings occured after the Mobil One. There was no evidence of wear when I powder coated the pan. *
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I'd rather attempt something great and fail.. than try something ordinary and succeed. Norman Vincent Peale Project: Barn Raising http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=414961 Project: 30 Be Low https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=830583 |
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#10 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oakridge Oregon
Posts: 1,865
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Always works in my rigs!
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68 CST SWB - Gold/White 50th anniversary /TH350/Buddy Buckets/3.73 Posi/dogdish caps. 68 K10 Burb - Gold/White 327/SM465/NP205/3.73 "Daa Burb" build thread |
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#11 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 784
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I don't mean to be negative, but I'd tend to place more suspicion on the engine build than a particular brand of oil. Be interested to hear what you find out when you tear it down. Whatever the cause, I feel your pain. That sucks.
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#12 | |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego California
Posts: 1,316
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
I am upgrading it all to roller everything so I never have to worry about zinc again.
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I'd rather attempt something great and fail.. than try something ordinary and succeed. Norman Vincent Peale Project: Barn Raising http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=414961 Project: 30 Be Low https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=830583 |
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#13 | |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St.Petersburg,Fl
Posts: 1,267
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
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#14 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 764
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Thank you for posting this. Hopefully it will save someone else. It still surprises me that with every example of this issue, there are those who read the evidence and still think you can run a flat tappet cam without zinc in the oil.
It's not just the evolution of roller motors in modern vehicles that has resulted in the removal of zinc from motor oil. A roller motor will survive just fine with zinc in the oil. The EPA wants heavy metals out of the oil. This is something that is changing daily. Even if your oil of choice had zinc in it last time you purchased it, check the label the next time you buy it. it also depends on where you live. Here in TX we can still buy VR1 off the shelf. not sure you can do that in CA.
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72 Cheyenne Super 1/2 LWB White/Dark Yellow 07 Avalanche 2LT 74 Sleek Craft Rebel Jet Boat W/Pontiac 400 Last edited by OhOneWS6; 10-18-2011 at 12:12 PM. |
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#15 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 784
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
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#16 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Hills, California
Posts: 679
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I posted this before from Crower:
Use of Synthetic Oils Crower does not recommend the use of synthetic motor oil in any application, particularly in hydraulic and flat tappet camshafts. If your car manufacturer's owners manual suggests running synthetic oil, you may do so. The minimum gains in horsepower are offset by the excessive wear to cam and lifter surfaces. We have found that the benefits, of synthetic motor oil, do not outweigh the costs and may endanger your engine's life. Crower recommends a non-detergent / race only petroleum based 30wt. motor oil in all performance applications. The lack of phosphorus and zinc in current oil blends is catastrophic to engine longevity. For all applications we do recommend running our ZDDPlus additive, which adds zinc and phosphorus back into the oil. For additional information on oil, click here! http://www.crower.com/faq/#h |
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#17 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 632
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I believe that Mobil has a synthetic that still carries the zinc of the older spec oils. I will have to look and try to find where I read that to post here. Synthetic isn't the problem it is the lack of the zinc, all oils currently sold out of the regular retail stores lack the zinc needed for scrubber cams. I use either Diesel (rotello) oil or add a can of STP (still has the zinc), one day I will make the switch to a roller cam engine but for now it is additive.
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Lifes journey is not to arrive at the gate well preserved, it is to slide in sideways all used up and wore out yelling.....God what'a ride! Where patience fails, force prevails Stapp's Ironical Paradox "The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle." |
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#18 | |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 165
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
Try Royal Purple it's got the whole 9 yerds and you can get it at any autoparts store. |
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#19 |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Broken Arrow Okla.
Posts: 510
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Happened to my BBC after 15 miles on the motor, I have a roller cam now. hate you had the same problem.
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1967 swb 454 cid 700R4 trans SOLD 2006 Chevy Trailblazer SS 2013 Camaro RS convertible the wife's Build thread http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=573248 |
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#20 |
Just a car guy
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: New Washington, IN
Posts: 991
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
MAgazines have been harping on this for a couple years now.
I thought it was pretty common knowledge at this point that if you are running a flat tappet cam, you need to add zinc or find some specialty oil with it still in it. I 'm using Brad Penn Green oil in my flat tappet motor.
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1955 belair Blown Pro Street cruiser 1971 Camaro Pro Touring 1973 Vega Drag Car 1970 C20 tow rig |
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#21 |
Moderator
![]() Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 20,005
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
From a Corvette forum, regarding VR-1: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ht-it-was.html
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1972 C/10 Cheyenne Super SWB. Restored, loaded, slammed. 1968 C/10 50th Anniversary LWB. Unrestored, stock, daily driver/work truck. RIP ElJay RIP 67ChevyRedneck RIP Grumpy Old Man |
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#22 | |
Florida Edition
![]() ![]() Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fruitland Park, FL
Posts: 4,025
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
You stated earlier you use Mobil 1 with an additive. Which additive do you use? Mine is the original motor that came in my truck, not high RPM build. Thanks. BTW, everyone with a flat tappet build should read that thread!
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70 GMC Short Stepside "Rose"-An American Beauty: Factory 402/TH400, AM/FM, AC, Tilt, Tach, Buckets, Posi, PS, PB, 3-5 Drop, Complete Resto-Rod 67 C-20 Slant Back Wrecker "Mad Max" 67 C-10 Ratrod "Step-N-Wolf" 71 Serro Scotty Sportsman camper "Scotty" 97 LT1 Z28 "The Hornet" Link to more pics of "Rose" http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...p?albumid=1684 Check out my "Cheap Tricks" thread and add to it if you can, lots of good info there. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=489394 |
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#23 |
Florida Edition
![]() ![]() Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fruitland Park, FL
Posts: 4,025
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Damn sure don't want to have to tear this down after 14,000 miles!
Sorry for the highjack and sorry about your engine trouble but you may have just saved me from the same fate. Thanks.
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70 GMC Short Stepside "Rose"-An American Beauty: Factory 402/TH400, AM/FM, AC, Tilt, Tach, Buckets, Posi, PS, PB, 3-5 Drop, Complete Resto-Rod 67 C-20 Slant Back Wrecker "Mad Max" 67 C-10 Ratrod "Step-N-Wolf" 71 Serro Scotty Sportsman camper "Scotty" 97 LT1 Z28 "The Hornet" Link to more pics of "Rose" http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...p?albumid=1684 Check out my "Cheap Tricks" thread and add to it if you can, lots of good info there. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=489394 |
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#24 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 764
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
Here is another thread with an email response from STP back in 2007. http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/anyt...red-label.html I could be wrong (6 lug wheels LOL) but I believe at this time there in no ZDDP in STP oil treatment. There is no mention of it on their site. If it was in there you can bet they would be advertising it. http://www.stp.com/products/oil-addi...oil-treatment/ This is a very heavily debated subject. Not only "Is ZDDP in the oil? but "How much is enough?" Everyone should do the research make their own decision on what to use. Be sure to check bottles and dates on the info because it does change. You may find some product on the shelf that has ZDDP right now only to find the next time you buy it the product no longer does. I can only speak for my experience. I have a mild flat tappet 425 HP Pontiac 400 in my jet boat. I broke it in on VR-1 and still run VR-1. It gets rung out pretty hard through the summer and after 3 seasons on the lake I have had no cam/lifter issues.
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72 Cheyenne Super 1/2 LWB White/Dark Yellow 07 Avalanche 2LT 74 Sleek Craft Rebel Jet Boat W/Pontiac 400 Last edited by OhOneWS6; 10-18-2011 at 06:39 PM. |
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#25 |
454 MAKES IT ROAR
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Essex, U.K
Posts: 2,701
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Thanks for the heads up...sorry it had to come at such cost to you though.
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Nigel. An American living in a British body. 1971 Chevy Cheyenne 10 454 "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty" - Thomas Jefferson No more pain. 03.12.60 -- 12.28.10 http://www.youtube.com/Eightbanger |
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