47-55.1 Steering Box Outside of Frame?

[stinsonj]

Does anyone have experience with installing a steering box for a Chey 3100 (mine is a 1951) on the outside of the frame rather than the inside? I was planning on utilizing a rack and pinion kit i got from Performance Online (https://www.performanceonline.com/19...nd-Pinion-Kit/) but the starter on my 4bt is directly in the way of where the steering shaft should be routed. I can get fancy with multiple u-joints and probably make it work but my worry is that i will need so many u-joints (probably 4) that i wont have a run long enough to install a slip joint for the steering. Also, I showed some photos of my build to a guy at a local hot rod shop and he immediately said i will not be happy with the steering setup due to a large amount of bump steer. So, in the end, I'm looking at alternatives to my current set up that wont require a bunch of u-joints in the steering and figure that since the starter is where the stock steering box mounts, the best place for a steering box is on the outside of the frame if possible.

[mr48chev]

Several of the guys have used the setup that mounts the box up in front of the axle like a later C or K series truck.

The kits have been around since the 90's and work pretty well in most cases.

Old article here that does a pretty good job of explaining.

CPP sells kits at several levels from just the mount for the frame and the steering arm and drag link to complete kits

https://www.classicperform.com/power2.htm

I'm not a big fan of hanging racks on I beam axles as it adds to unsprung weight and the steering shaft hook up has to be sliding back and forth with every bump and bobble.

I'm thinking that some wide and big wheel/tire combos don't fit well with it but that is a different ball of wax.

[stinsonj]

Thanks for the info. I hate to just discard the rack and pinion setup i purchased 6 years ago but feel like at this point it wasnt a good decision. I just sent an email to CPP to see if they can package something together for me. Anyway, anyone interested in a rack and pinion setup? Give you a hell of a deal.

[joedoh]

if you have 4 u joints, you dont/wont need a slip shaft. a slip shaft is used when the steering column and steering shaft are in roughly a straight line, so that collision force doesnt make a spear out of the shaft in the column. if you have 4 knuckles, the force will all be at angles to the column, and will likely fold over, not transmit the force to the column.

also what steering column are you running? most modern (1972 or so, and all aftermarket) GM columns have an internal crumple area. I have seen guys use bearing kits on stock (older than 1959) columns, those columns are the dangerous ones.

[dsraven]

here is a few pics of the box outside the frame. you can see how a hard right wouldn't be all that hard, really, before the tire hits the box or the drag link.

http://blog.brotherstrucks.com/1947-...-installation/

here is another option as well

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=679703

[stinsonj]

Here are some photos illustrating my problem:

[dsraven]

I have seen a few of the newer style steering boxes bolted to the outside of the frame but usually the tire will hit the steering box on a right hand turn, so you have a good left turn radius but not so much for the right side.
never been a fan of the rack bolted to the I beam, the column has to get longer and shorter every time you go over a bump, good reason to be worn out quick plus if it ever separates you have no steering
can you post up some pics of what you have?

[dsraven]

personally, I would not use the rack on the I beam axle. maybe the toyota box, moved forward a bit, with a custom pitman arm? maybe a taller steering box with a bottom outlet pitman arm and a longer pitman shaft tube, that would place the box a little higher on the frame so maybe miss a few engine items. I have worked on a few old ford 1/2 and 3/4 tons from the '70's with a long pitman shaft steering box. maybe something like that could be used? it would need to go inside the frame possibly in front of the starter? pitman arm exits the side of the frame? I dunno, just spit-balling. maybe a trip to pick n pull for a look see what might work.
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Steerin.../dp/B01MSJKHWI

[dsraven]

maybe a scout II box?
here is a link with a few pics if you scroll down. long pitman shaft, bolts to outside of frame, main gear body sits above frame.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/sc...638659&slide=0

[joedoh]

go high over the starter and then dive using a 70 degree double joint.

edit: my dumbness just realized WHY you need a slip joint. I dont have a good solution for you. it IS possible the use of the 70 degree joint will let the shaft flex as the axle moves.

[stinsonj]

I like the way the Scout II box mounts. Only problem is even though i can cut and weld metal well enough, I have no idea how to design a steering system that works and is road worthy. I've upgraded the steering on my 1953 Jeep awhile back and everything turned out great, but it was a kit that i found online and i was hoping i could find a kit for this as well (like the CPP kit already referenced). Maybe it's more simple than I'm thinking.

[dsraven]

part of the problem is that the leaf springs move upward and would normally have a jounce stop or snubber on the frame above the axle just in case of a big bump or whatever. so, that sort of eliminates a box on the inside of the frame with the pitman arm swinging across the contact area above the spring. the stock box exited on the outside of the frame probably in part, for that reason. since you dont have room inside the frame to mount a box with a side outlet like the stock box you may have to look at something like the scout box, mounted on the outside of the frame but with a long output shaft area to keep the gear box section sitting high. the problem with doing that will be that the pitman arm will protrude sideways, towards the tire, and swing in an arc on a horizontal plane instead of a vertical plane like the stock box did. that means the drag link end that attaches will go through some large angle changes as the suspension moves instead of the simple turning motion that a vertical pitman arm would. a box with a vertical pitman arm, like stock, would be best. I have seen an AD truck with the stock box offset towards the outside of the frame, is something like that possible maybe using the power steering option from a toyota so the pitman arm stays vertical? offset the engine to the passenger side a little?

[MARTINSR]

When I went to put my Buick 401 Nailhead in my truck in 79 and the steering box was in the way, I just moved the engine back. LOLOL

Brian

[stinsonj]

I really can’t move the engine forwards, backwards, or left or right. It pretty much sits perfect the way it currently is. I still have the option of going with one of CPP’s packages but I do see the potential for limiting turning radius which sucks. One of my ideas was to get a 16” long steering column which would allow me to have the steering shaft exit the cab lower, leaving a longer run of shaft all the way to the box. It would still require 4 u-joints but then at least I would have room to install a slip joint.
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[joedoh]

if you are able to get the shaft horizontal, you woudnt need a slip shaft, the knuckles would function as your movable joints. so yeah, thats a good idea, go down through the floor and then straight forward to the rack. you could put a slip shaft on it but it wouldnt budge ever, which is good, i wouldnt want my steering to count on a constantly adjusting slip shaft

[dsraven]

some newer trucks have a well supported shortie steering colmn with a u joint inside the truck. maybe something like that would allow a shaft to exit the firewall higher up and make a frame mounted steering box a better solution. I am just not a fan of the beam mounted rack with a slip joint that has to slip every time the suspension moves. I like something with the least amount of moving parts that wil eventually wear out. possibly a steering box further back on the frame would work. some cab forward units have the box mounted right at the front under the floor, maybe looking at some of those would get the old brain idea cells working? exit the floor of the truck between your feet, mount a box under the floor with a long drag link or a drag link that goes to a idler arm further ahead so the wheel can turn without hitting the drag link? maybe a side steer box mounted on top of the frame with an angle drive attached to line up with the column? check some rat rod sites with side steer boxes to see what they have made work?
ideas
https://www.streetmusclemag.com/news...lves-problems/

https://www.rhsheppard.com/products-...g/miter-boxes/

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...boxes.1107423/

[1project2many]

What about '70s to mid-'90s van style? Vans used a vertical steering box in front of the axle with two universals to connect the box to the steering shaft. Rack mounted to frame in front of the axle could connect to steering shaft in a similar fashion. Even if the rack turns out to be unworkable, a front mounted box would allow the steering shaft to pass over the starter (make sure to plan a path for starter replacement!). Some guys heat and bend the spindles to move the tie rod attachment points when swapping spindles side to side (you want correct Ackerman angles). Aftermarket is selling spindles for a number of different applications so new may be an option.

It appears there are a number of options for relocating the starter. I'm thinking that you already know this and there's a reason why that's not a valid option. But in case you haven't seen this info, here are a couple of links:
https://www.4btswaps.com/threads/4bt...osition.33610/
https://www.turbodieselregister.com/...ocation.96633/