47-55.1 A few general questions about my project

[Root2812]

Hi guys. My 1950 LS swap mustang 2 IFS project has been moving along nicely but I came to a few things I want to see what you guys have done.

First, I have a brand new LS1 power steering pump and a brand new (remanufactured) mustang steering rack. The website of the company that remanufactured the rack says the GM pump needs power steering fluid but that the Ford rack recommends Mercon ATF. I want to run power steering fluid but I want to see what some of you with a similar set up have used before I wreck something with the wrong fluid.

Second, the shaft coming out of the mustang 2 rack is 3/4 inch. I see a lot of guys saying they use 1" DD steering shaft but I was leaning toward using 3/4 DD for two reasons. One its thinner and I am tight on space and two its the same diameter as the shaft coming out of the rack. What have some of you with mustang 2 racks used? If Ford felt 3/4 inch was ok wouldn't it be strong enough for my project?

Third, is another fluid question. I know you never mix regular ethylene glycol antifreeze and Dexcool. My engine is freshly rebuilt including machine shop work, my radiator and everything is new too. Since everything is clean and new can I use what ever coolant I want? Or do I still need Dexcool since its an LS engine? I want to use a regular coolant that I can get at the parts store so if I ever need some I can just go get it so the fancy waterless coolants aren't what I am looking for. What have you guys used on your LS swaps?

Everyone hates threads with no pictures so here are some from last night. I am getting close to hearing it run. Thanks in advance for helping.

[MiraclePieCo]

I can answer #2. I used 3/4" solid (not hollow tube). It's way overkill. You could hang your entire truck from a 2-foot piece of that stuff. In any system there is no sense using anything that's stronger than the weakest component. Most aftermarket steering columns have 3/4" shafts (including ididit) so if you have 3/4" on both ends why would you need anything stronger in the middle?

And yeah, it helps the clearance. My intermediate shaft clears the exhaust header by about 1/4-inch.

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

I can answer #2. I used 3/4" solid (not hollow tube). It's way overkill. You could hang your entire truck from a 2-foot piece of that stuff. In any system there is no sense using anything that's stronger than the weakest component. Most aftermarket steering columns have 3/4" shafts (including ididit) so if you have 3/4" on both ends why would you need anything stronger in the middle?

And yeah, it helps the clearance. My intermediate shaft clears the exhaust header by about 1/4-inch.

You are saying what I was thinking, thank you. I was hoping 3/4 would be strong enough since its going to be just as strong as the rack's steering shaft. Also knowing you are ok with 1/4 inch gives me hope. I bought a piece of 1 inch wood dowel for mock up and it fits with a little space on each side so I will probably end up about 1/4 inch on each side too.

[mr48chev]

Type F was specified by Ford for Ford vehicles with rack and pinion steering built before 1996/98 According to this https://www.motorcraft.com/us/en_us/...ng-fluids.html

When I worked in Pontiac dealerships where I did a low of power steering pumps and steering boxes I could often quiet down a 70's GM pump that someone had put atf in by bleeding the atf out and filling it with genuine GM power steering fluid.

I'd probably go with a high quality type F as that is what the seals in the rack are compatible and I don't believe that it will cause an issue with the pump. Ford used a lot of Saginaw pumps running them with Type F fluid.

What I am finding is DO NOT USE synthetic power steering fluids or fluids with any leak stop additives in them. The MII or 80's Mustang's racks seals don't seem to like either.

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

Type F was specified by Ford for Ford vehicles with rack and pinion steering built before 1996/98 According to this https://www.motorcraft.com/us/en_us/...ng-fluids.html

When I worked in Pontiac dealerships where I did a low of power steering pumps and steering boxes I could often quiet down a 70's GM pump that someone had put atf in by bleeding the atf out and filling it with genuine GM power steering fluid.

I'd probably go with a high quality type F as that is what the seals in the rack are compatible and I don't believe that it will cause an issue with the pump. Ford used a lot of Saginaw pumps running them with Type F fluid.

What I am finding is DO NOT USE synthetic power steering fluids or fluids with any leak stop additives in them. The MII or 80's Mustang's racks seals don't seem to like either.

I guess I need to add that I don't actually have the 79-93 steering rack. My kit came from Fatman Fabrication and they marketed it at a 79-93 and the instructions say 79-93 but I saw it has a ford V steering shaft which is 94-04. I pulled part numbers off it and then had to call them. He told me they ran out of 79-93 racks and sent me a 96-98 rack but it has 79-93 inner tierods on it.

So I have a 96-98 rack. That link said Type F for cars before 96-98. So no Type F?

Also you say the power steering fluid quieted down a noisy pump so it must be safe to use either in the pump? I don't want my pump to be noisy.

[mongocanfly]

I used 3/4"dd and 1"dd on mine..
most references mean the 3/4dd is the solid shaft and the 1"dd is the hollow side that slips over the 3/4dd..giving you a slip section in the steering
works on the same principle and a factory steering shaft

I used dexcool in mine because that what the LS gets from GM.. no other reason

.

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

I used 3/4"dd and 1"dd on mine..
most references mean the 3/4dd is the solid shaft and the 1"dd is the hollow side that slips over the 3/4dd..giving you a slip section in the steering
works on the same principle and a factory steering shaft

I used dexcool in mine because that what the LS gets from GM.. no other reason

.

Interesting. I didn't know 1 inch was hollow. So you have one shaft sliding inside the other to make a collapsible type set up?

The more I think about it Dexcool makes sense. I know its what the motor calls for and if anyone for any reason services my truck other than me I would assume they'd go with it.

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

I used dexcool in mine because that what the LS gets from GM.. no other reason

.

I was google searching and found this thread. https://www.pro-touring.com/archive/...p/t-28012.html

There was a lengthy discussion but I saw they said Dexcool eats brass and solder. Aren't our heater cores brass? I will get a new one but I have no idea what the replacement heater cores are made of.

[mongocanfly]

mines been running the stock heater core for many yrs in my 81 with dexcool...never had a issue

1st pic is whats referred to as 3/4DD shaft
2nd pic is whats referred to as 1DD shaft..
3/4 slides inside the 1in making it a collapsible shaft...makes it nice when setting up steering wheel in and out..also allows for cab to frame movement without binding

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

mines been running the stock heater core for many yrs in my 81 with dexcool...never had a issue

1st pic is whats referred to as 3/4DD shaft
2nd pic is whats referred to as 1DD shaft..
3/4 slides inside the 1in making it a collapsible shaft...makes it nice when setting up steering wheel in and out..also allows for cab to frame movement without binding

I like that idea. With the cab mounts as they are I am sure it will move some so having some movement built into the steering would be good. So you ended up having a 3/4 DD coming from the rack and from the column and used the 1" DD as a sleeve to connect the two so they can move?

Back to coolant, I kept searching and I think my radiator made up my mind for me. This link is from champion https://shop.championcooling.com/art...Color-Do-I-Use

They say don't use dexcool in their radiators and they recommend a glycol based coolant. I know glycol worked with my copper brass heater core for 70 years and its worked in iron and aluminum engines too so I think that's going to be the way to go. I will have to research and see if ethylene glycol or propylene glycol is better for me. Having pets and a young kid I like the lox toxicity of the propylene.

[mongocanfly]

Heres how mine is setup...in this pic I havnt painted the lower section (3/4dd) yet

[dsraven]

-check with the manufacturer on what type of fluid to use in the rack and ask specifically if the GM type will work with the components in the rack. I usually recommend power steering fluid as opposed to atf just because it is specifically made for steering systems. lots of guys would simply fill it up and hope for the best, lol. type F was made more for transmissions that use bronze in their friction clutch plates.
-steering shaft-larger DD will help with really off angle set ups that are long, too make them less flexible and less apt to bind without a support bearing. a fairly straight shot to the rack should be fine with the smaller DD shaft. I recommend a slip shaft due to collapsibility in a front end collision, otherwise it is a spear in front of your chest.
-I recommend dexcool because it is a long life coolant and flushing coolant is not on everybody's to do list. the longer the coolant is left in the system the more chance the PH level changes and it becomes acidic. I have seen old rusty coolant eat a hole in an aluminum water pump housing.

[layinrocker65]

I’m not telling you what to do, just sharing my experience.

I have always ran ATF in my steering systems for LS swaps. No reason other than the simple fact that I don’t have to buy another fluid. All of my swaps have 10s of thousands of miles on them with gm truck or camaro pumps. Never had an issue with any of them.

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by layinrocker65

I’m not telling you what to do, just sharing my experience.

I have always ran ATF in my steering systems for LS swaps. No reason other than the simple fact that I don’t have to buy another fluid. All of my swaps have 10s of thousands of miles on them with gm truck or camaro pumps. Never had an issue with any of them.

I appreciate you sharing your experience. So my 4l60e calls for Dexron 3 and the rack calls for mercon and the gm PS pump is ok with the ATF so I could theoretically use Dex/Merc in the trans and PS and have only the one fluid?

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by dsraven

-check with the manufacturer on what type of fluid to use in the rack and ask specifically if the GM type will work with the components in the rack. I usually recommend power steering fluid as opposed to atf just because it is specifically made for steering systems. lots of guys would simply fill it up and hope for the best, lol. type F was made more for transmissions that use bronze in their friction clutch plates.
-steering shaft-larger DD will help with really off angle set ups that are long, too make them less flexible and less apt to bind without a support bearing. a fairly straight shot to the rack should be fine with the smaller DD shaft. I recommend a slip shaft due to collapsibility in a front end collision, otherwise it is a spear in front of your chest.
-I recommend dexcool because it is a long life coolant and flushing coolant is not on everybody's to do list. the longer the coolant is left in the system the more chance the PH level changes and it becomes acidic. I have seen old rusty coolant eat a hole in an aluminum water pump housing.

Thanks for the input. You make a good point about the longevity of dexcool but I think I am going to have to go with the green stuff. I am using a champion radiator and they specifically say not to use dexcool. They say Dexcool is great in closed systems like the stock LS but that their radiator uses and over flow tank where air meets the coolant and air does bad things to the dexcool. Or so says the link I posted of theirs. then there is the fact that it sounds like dexcool eats brass faster than glycol. I have a brass heater core. I think I will just have to make sure I do bi-annual coolant flushes. I might try the propylene glycol since its way less toxic and if I am changing that every few years its not to keep poison levels down.

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

Heres how mine is setup...in this pic I havnt painted the lower section (3/4dd) yet

Is that a vibration reducing joint on the top?

[mongocanfly]

Nope..universal joints at each end of the DD
U joints are
Spline to 3/4DD on the bottom
1DD to 3/4 round at the top

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

Nope..universal joints at each end of the DD
U joints are
Spline to 3/4DD on the bottom
1DD to 3/4 round at the top

No problems with vibration at all then? Does it matter if you put the 1"DD or the 3/4 DD side of the collapsible shaft on the column side?

I think I am going to go with this set up from rack to column. U-joint Ford V to 3/4DD, 3/4 DD shaft, U-joint 3/4 DD to 3/4 DD, collapsible shaft and support joint near the u-joint, then what ever U-joint I need to mate the 1"DD to what ever column I end up with. I am wondering if I should put a vibration reducing joint in.

[mongocanfly]

I'm not sure how you'll have to route your shafts ...most of the ADs have to use more than 2 joints to go from a rack, around the engine, and to the column...if its needed be sure to use a support for the DD shaft...3/4" heim joints work well..
It wont matter which way you do the DD shaft..if your cramped for space I would use the 3/4 on the bottom end...

[jweb]

I'm no expert and these are just my opinions

Question 1: I used the power steering fluid that's recommended for the pump and I haven't had any issues. The problem I had was with pressure. The GM pump flows too much for the Ford rack. First I installed the Borgeson kit https://www.borgeson.com/xcart/home.php?cat=133
Then I tried a flow reducer like this: https://www.ebay.com/i/282971970150?...xoCGC4QAvD_BwE

I think the flow reducer helped more than the pressure reducer but I have seen other people that were happy with the Borgeson.


Question 2: A 3/4" shaft is plenty big. I would say use the slip style shaft if you're able to fit it. I had to use 2 joints to make mine fit around the headers. Since it's 2 pieces I don't have the slip style.

Question 3 : I was also told to just use the green antifreeze by my radiator supplier for the same reason you mentioned.

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

I'm not sure how you'll have to route your shafts ...most of the ADs have to use more than 2 joints to go from a rack, around the engine, and to the column...if its needed be sure to use a support for the DD shaft...3/4" heim joints work well..
It wont matter which way you do the DD shaft..if your cramped for space I would use the 3/4 on the bottom end...

Yep I have to do 2 shafts and a heim in the middle. I was thinking I’d use the collapsible shaft between the column and middle joint.

Originally Posted by jweb

I'm no expert and these are just my opinions

Question 1: I used the power steering fluid that's recommended for the pump and I haven't had any issues. The problem I had was with pressure. The GM pump flows too much for the Ford rack. First I installed the Borgeson kit https://www.borgeson.com/xcart/home.php?cat=133
Then I tried a flow reducer like this: https://www.ebay.com/i/282971970150?...xoCGC4QAvD_BwE

I think the flow reducer helped more than the pressure reducer but I have seen other people that were happy with the Borgeson.


Question 2: A 3/4" shaft is plenty big. I would say use the slip style shaft if you're able to fit it. I had to use 2 joints to make mine fit around the headers. Since it's 2 pieces I don't have the slip style.

Question 3 : I was also told to just use the green antifreeze by my radiator supplier for the same reason you mentioned.

Thanks for the input. I haven’t installed my borgeson pressure reducer kit yet. I need to rent a pulley remover so I can get an impact on the nut to remove the valve. The valve is on the side half way behind the pulley and I tried using a box end with no luck, can’t get a socket on there.

I will also have two pieces in my steering shaft. It looked like I could get away without the collapsible shaft because it would bend at the middle joint but for extra safety I think I’ll use one anyway.

I see your signature says you’re running LS and 4l60e. Did you use a stock frame or go s10?

[jweb]

My truck is on a stock frame with Mustang II suspension.

I used block hugger style headers, most of the other styles would hit my starter. I guess the '04 GTO starter is larger.

If I had to do it again I would buy 2 sets of headers. I would use the block hugger for the pass. side and a rear dump style for the driver's side.

[Root2812]

Originally Posted by jweb

My truck is on a stock frame with Mustang II suspension.

I used block hugger style headers, most of the other styles would hit my starter. I guess the '04 GTO starter is larger.

If I had to do it again I would buy 2 sets of headers. I would use the block hugger for the pass. side and a rear dump style for the driver's side.

I ended up using the hooker manifolds and they worked well. I have two issues. I ended up having to clearance the top of the frame rail a little bit (1/2 inch or so) but I boxed the rail in so it should be fine. They also hit the heat shield for the starter. I can run the stock starter for now but when I start driving I will have to find a mini starter or something so they aren't so close.

How did you run your transmission lines? On the side of the block like stock? I was going to use some AN-6 line I have but I cant find a good way to route it. I might have to go hard lines along the block.

[dsraven]

here is a speedway motors tech youtube discussing the issue of the MII rack with the Saginaw pump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA4oJFAcUTs

here is a classic performance tech article talking about the different set ups. maybe helpful

https://www.classicperform.com/TechB...ngTechTips.htm