5 speed conversion with pics

[jodydewey]

Originally Posted by 454_72_4X4

The extremely short clutch throw is probabl due to the master cylinder rod pivot point being too far from the clutch pedal point.
I'm going to be converting to hydro clutch, (nv4500 soon), and the best way I've come up with to get the correct length for the pivot point is to measure the stock clutch pedal out of say, a 94 Chevy with a manual trans and hydro clutch.
I haven't gotten around to finding one to measure yet though.

The drive line angles...I didn't read all the posts, (yet), but I did see somebody mentioned 0 degrees. I don't think that would be correct.
The crankshaft centerline isn't "level" when an engine is installed. The carburetor pad should be level, or close to it.
The important thing on driveline angles is that the transmission output shaft angle matches the rearend pinion angle. Or as close as possible.

The reason I said that the angle should be zero degrees coming out of the transmission so you can minimize vibration. If you cannot achieve zero degrees then that is OK too. You will not have problems unless the angles are extreme. Can you measure the distance from the front of the cab to the front of your shifter? I would like to make the hole in my transmission hump but you really only get one chance to make it in the right spot. Since yours looks great I want to copy it.


Jody

[skchevota]

The NV 4500 I put in mine did not have a return spring. I am running the master on the driver side with a brake booster with know trouble. I did have the same problem of short throw and I moved the rod closer to thepivit. I then had to add a plate to my peddal are because the rod was to short on the master I used and I wanted my brake and clutch to be at the same height. I have been running this set upfor over a year and realy like it. My throw is a little less than a stock hydro system but not much, since I am lazy and dont like to have to pump my leg up and down every time I shift, I like it.

[454_72_4X4]

mdlackey, your transmission has a seperate bellhousing, correct?
The reason I ask is from what I can see in your pics you have a NV4500 trans.
I think we have 2 different kinds of transmission conversions going on in this thread.

jodydewey has a NV3500, (integral [spelling?] bellhousing)
mdlackey has a NV4500, (seperate bolt on bellhousing)

These are completely different transmissions so the crossmember and driveshaft specs will be different between the two, but the hydro clutch setups are almost identical.


NV4500; (notice the shift tower and crossmember mount) This is a 4x4 version but the only difference is the ouput shaft and output housing.


NV3500; (Had this one in my S-10, 4 sale for parts!LOL)


Bolt on shifter towers for the NV3500 above;


Newer style NV3500; (This one belongs to a buddy of mine)






I've also got a few pics of different hydro clutch setups, (in 67-72 trucks), I'm working on uploading them so I can post 'em here.

Stay tuned!

[jodydewey]

Originally Posted by 454_72_4X4

mdlackey, your transmission has a seperate bellhousing, correct?
The reason I ask is from what I can see in your pics you have a NV4500 trans.
I think we have 2 different kinds of transmission conversions going on in this thread.

jodydewey has a NV3500, (integral [spelling?] bellhousing)
mdlackey has a NV4500, (seperate bolt on bellhousing)

These are completely different transmissions so the crossmember and driveshaft specs will be different between the two, but the hydro clutch setups are almost identical.


NV4500; (notice the shift tower and crossmember mount) This is a 4x4 version but the only difference is the ouput shaft and output housing.


NV3500; (Had this one in my S-10, 4 sale for parts!LOL)


Bolt on shifter towers for the NV3500 above;


Newer style NV3500; (This one belongs to a buddy of mine)






I've also got a few pics of different hydro clutch setups, (in 67-72 trucks), I'm working on uploading them so I can post 'em here.

Stay tuned!

I agree with the NV3500 NV4500 stuff. When I saw the ring around the driveshaft yoke area on the pictures that spelled NV4500. When I saw the shifter location that looked nothing like mine and I noticed that the bellhousing was not integrated into the housing. That also spells NV4500. You are a lucky man though - the NV4500 is a tough tranny! Maybe that explains why you are having trouble getting it to fit - its HUGE.


I know I haven't posted any new pics lately, I didnt want to install the engine and transmission with me doing all this grinding and welding of rust panels. The weather hasn't been the best for me to work either. I have a plan now and if I can get my truck pushed into the backyard I can work on it under my awning.


Jody

[jodydewey]

The pictures above with the remote master cylinder - does anyone know what kind of vehicle that came out of? I don't think I am going to have problems when I switch to power brakes but if I do THAT remote master cylinder is the answer! The only thing that worries me about clearance is when I add power brakes. The master cylinder that I measured had a spacer bracket that measured 7 5/8 inches from the firewall. That was well beyond the clutch master cylinder of my truck.

I think I am going to redo the mounting of my clutch master cylinder. I am going to grind the welds so I can mount it flush. Maybe - maybe not. I finally got my truck moved to the backyard where I can finish the rust repair and get the engine and transmission installed. I will be building the transmission crossmember also. I will post pics of the crossmember with measurements so you can all copy it. When I get the engine and transmission mounted I will also post measurements of the locations for the holes in the hump and frame for the crossmember.

[chevybill]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GM PART # 12570277
CATEGORY: Hydraulic Clutch Main Cylinder/Rod
PACK QTY: 1
CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $202.70
OUR PRICE: $120.16


This is the part I am trying to adapt for use with my particular NV3500 which came from a 99 s-10 4.3 with the internal release bearing and slave cylinder. This part 12570277 is from a late model f body.

[454_72_4X4]

jodydewey, if you need a little extra room for your brake booster you could gain a little by setting your clutch master cylinder against the firewall. You'll have to enlarge the hole where the rod goes through.
Make it big enough the rear portion of the master cylinder will go through the firewall.
Gain you about 3/8 of an inch?

[skchevota]

I just rememberd the return spring is built into the slave cylinder. when you buy then new they have a strap to hold them in the in position.

[mdlackey]

Yup, I must have an NV4500 ... nice to know, seeing that no one had broken down the differences in them from what I'd read.

skchevota, can you take a pic or two of your master cylinder placement and where it attaches to the clutch pedal? Would be EXTREMELY helpful ... also, do you have a pic of your driveline? Just interested in seeing how yours sits ...

454, great info !!! ... thank you ...

Thanks,
Dave

[454_72_4X4]

Here's some pics of a hydro clutch setup.
I don't know who's it is but it was posted on the board somewhen...

[454_72_4X4]

Another thought just came to mind. I'm going to measure the pivot points on my S-10 clutch pedal. It isn't a full size but I'm guessing the clutch master cylinder has the same amount of travel.
I'll post those measurements asap.

[454_72_4X4]

The distance between the pivot points on my S-10 clutch pedal measures really close to
2-1/8 inches. (pedal hinge point to the clutch master cylinder rod attachment point)

As best as I could get up in there to read the tape...

[mdlackey]

Hey guys ... got my master cylinder mounted and have a much more do-able clutch throw. Been able to drive the thing. Had a rudamentary exhaust system put on so I don't tick off the neighbors. Indicate around 2100 roms when around 60-ish MPH.

My only concern, now, is if the throwout fully disengages, when in gears. Would hate to burn one of those up too quickly. I'm using the stock GMC master-slave cylinder setup from the donor truck.

Will take pics during the week and post them.

Anyone else have an update?

Dave

[watahyahknow]

i believe that if the mastercyclinder comes fully back the trowout will release too , with the hydraulic system its selfadjusting

[mdlackey]

Mine turned out pretty well ... it's not a show truck by any stretch, but it functions great and I indicate @ 2000 rpm in 5th gear at reasonable highway speed. Haven't done any long distance trips with it.

Still kind of concerned about driveline angles, as my carrier bearing is tilted back a little, so I'm thinking about having another tranny x-member fab-ed that might have about an inch dip in it.

Going to be at the Good Guys Show in Loveland over the June 2nd weekend. May bring truck up and place in the Swap Meet lot to sell. Depends on what kind of "action" it might bring ... side topic ...

Dave

[jodydewey]

Originally Posted by eedgell

Does any one know how this all turned out?

Sorry it has taken me so long to post. My truck has soooo much rust that getting it all and making it look good before putting the engine and tranny back in are taking up all my time. So far I have had to remake the radiator core support, weld panels into the fenders, replace the inner fenders, passenger floor, inner and outer rockers, door pillars front and rear, repair panels on the passenger door (3 of them) and create an all new vent box on the passenger side. When I put in the outer rocker on the passenger side I didnt have the door installed and I set the outer rocker in too high. Now I can't close the door and have to start over again with the outer rocker. THEN, after all that is done, I still have to do the driver's side. This truck started as a driver and just turned out to be a big POS of rust. CAVEAT EMPTOR.


Jody

[jodydewey]

So far I have the clutch pedal finished and painted. I didnt think a picture of it would have been warranted. Hopefully my clock is correct. I am hoping that with the lever changed to straight up and down when I push in the clutch pedal it will have enough throw to completely engage the slave cylinder. Until the lever is installed I really won't know. I am waiting to continue the saga until the front end is pulled off of my truck. My engine is broken and I am pulling the entire front end off to make it easier to take the engine and transmission out and also give me room to work the clutch master cylinder. I also thought while it was off to weld off all the holes, paint the firewall, and put in new inner fenders. I figured while the whole front end is off the pictures will be much easier to work.

For the other questions, an NV3500 will NOT take huge amounts of torque. Maybe 350 lb/ft tops. No dropping the clutch or power shifting. For how I drive though it should be great. I am really stoked about putting it in so I can get overdrive.

[jodydewey]

OK. I finally got the front end off and the engine and transmssion pulled. You do not have to go this far to do the swap. I just did it because my inner fenders were severely rusted along with the radiator core support. Plus having the front end off makes the engine pull soooo much easier.

[jodydewey]

I installed the clutch pedal back into the truck with the updated clock. I found that I had to grind my weld a little better so it would fit. I also had to widen the bolt slot in the end so the clutch lever could fit flush against the shaft instead of 1/8th of an inch deeper. After I got the clutch lever installed I used the master cylinder rod and a level to figure out where to drill the hole. Once the hole was drilled I used the master cylinder to mark the holes for the mounting bracket. I will tell you this up front, I don't like the choice I made for my master cylinder. The bracket's clock is roughly 2 oclock which puts the top bolt into the bracket for the brakes. I would say if you want to move it over about an inch or two add a spacer to the clutch lever. I am also unsure whether this will interfere with a power brake booster since I have not done this conversion yet. I am pretty sure I will be OK. I welded studs to the firewall so I wouldn't have to mess with bolts and nuts later. Here are pictures of the clutch pedal slot, the clutch lever, the rod, and the master cylinder.

[jodydewey]

I tested the clutch pedal - all works as intended so far. I will know more once the clutch is hooked up. I don't anticipate any problems since it looks pretty straightforward. Next I will be fitting the transmission and engine back into the truck to see where the crossmember and hole for the shifter need to be. I have gotten a little sidetracked though with the immense level of corrosion on my radiator core support. As you can see, the only thing holding the core support to the truck was the fenders! It is supposed to be the other way around! Luckily I have a TIG and plenty of will to rebuild it. I am cheap so I don't want to spend $300 to get one from LMC. If I fail in my repair (not likely) I will buy it. I also have some repairs to do on the cab that I wasn't expecting.

[BUDDY]

Originally Posted by jodydewey

I installed the clutch pedal back into the truck with the updated clock. I found that I had to grind my weld a little better so it would fit. I also had to widen the bolt slot in the end so the clutch lever could fit flush against the shaft instead of 1/8th of an inch deeper. After I got the clutch lever installed I used the master cylinder rod and a level to figure out where to drill the hole. Once the hole was drilled I used the master cylinder to mark the holes for the mounting bracket. I will tell you this up front, I don't like the choice I made for my master cylinder. The bracket's clock is roughly 2 oclock which puts the top bolt into the bracket for the brakes. I would say if you want to move it over about an inch or two add a spacer to the clutch lever. I am also unsure whether this will interfere with a power brake booster since I have not done this conversion yet. I am pretty sure I will be OK. I welded studs to the firewall so I wouldn't have to mess with bolts and nuts later. Here are pictures of the clutch pedal slot, the clutch lever, the rod, and the master cylinder.

I think that you'll have a problem with the booster having the clutch there.

I would recommend, since you have the fab skills, to mount it on the other side of the master. I'm pretty sure you can get it over there above the junction block for the wiring, but you'd obviously have to "re-redo" the clutch linkage.

I'll take measurements & pictures of my master & booster when I get home tonight.

I love the project, & will be following closely as I want to put a NV4500 with hyd clutch in my blazer someday. Or maybe i'll just swap in the Duramax with it's 6-sp. Decisions, Decisions.....

Later,

Buddy

[jodydewey]

I had a friend go and measure his power brake booster to see if I was going to have any issues. His measured 7 5/8 from the top bolt to the top bolt and 8 inches at the bottom bolt to bottom bolt. The clutch master cylinder is 7 inches long. I think I lucked out there. If it doesn't work well I can always move it over a little more. The reason I didn't want to put it on the right side of the brake master cylinder is I believe I would have a problem with getting enough push on the clutch master cylinder without the linkage binding. The clutch pedal itself is on a much bigger arc than the small clutch lever is. I was able to control the up/down movement easier on a smaller arm.

[jodydewey]

Can someone go and measure from the firewall to the start of their power brake booster? I need to know if my new clutch master cylinder is going to be a problem. I am thinking now that it probably will be. The only way I can think of to get the master cylinder out of the way is to move it two inches or so to the left (on the firewall side). I can do this by making a spacer and welding it to the clutch lever. You can't just use a spacer between there because it will cause a bind in the linkage when you push the pedal. I am also thinking now that it was a mistake to weld in the bolts. If I am going to leave the master cylinder where it is I am going to drill the head off of the bolt that is in the brake bracket so it can be taken off to paint. Duh!!!!!!

[watahyahknow]

Originally Posted by Palf70Step

Do you think you'll need to reinforce the firewall at all around the clutch MC? Once you get pressure int eh system, it would seem like that may put a lot of strain on the sheet metal.

BTW beautiful job on it. Looking forward to the finishing touches.

when i look at my european cars hydraulic cluch i see 2 band steel straps inside the cab running from the bolts of the clutchcylinder to the dash itself to prevent it from moving about .
that should be a pretty eazy solution on youre truck making straps that bolt from the cylinder to the mounting of the steeringcolumb or sumtin simulair

[mdlackey]

Hey guys ...

Guess I'm the "guinea pig" ...

I did mount the master cylinder in front of the clutch pedal, instead of where the clutch rod penetrated the firewall. I removed the clutch pedal return spring, and used another bolt/spacer/nut setup to get the geometry close. TONS of leg effort to get about 1.5"-2" of pedal travel and hitting the end of the clutch travel ... nowhere close to the floorboard. See pics to see how it mounted up ... guess it was too easy to be the final setup. Moving the master cylinder higher on the firewall to get it closer to the pedals pivot point .. hence greater leverage and less leg effort will put it too close to the steering shaft, IMHO. Thoughts?

Was there a "clutch return spring" in the '90's NV3500 that made sure it pulled the clutch arm and throwout bearing off of the pressure plate? Noticed that the output shaft on the tranny is turning while in neutral, and stops when I depress the clutch. Would've been in the bellhousing assembly, if it were anywhere.

Currently, I have a single piece of 1/8" wall 1.5" square tubing that is holding the tranny in place. Have it drilled for the transmission mounting bolt. Will probably have another length of it welded to it for additional strength ... don't know if it is REALLY needed ... but just being cautious ... and will have 1/8" right angles welded to each end, then drilled so it can be mounted to the frame rails.

Anybody else have any updates and pics on their conversions?

Looking forward to hearing from all of you ...

Dave