Super Blue

[Portmod7]

Hi guys!

I've been "lurking" around for a while observing, commenting on the rare occasion that I feel like I've got something to contribute, and finally decided I would put up a build thread. I've learned so much from the people and their builds on this forum, hopefully there is some tidbit of information from what I have done on my truck that will help someone.

I got this truck back when I was in college, Sept. of '05. Bought it on ebay for 3k without looking at it in person. A buddy and I drove to Phoenix to pick it up, and was pretty happy with my purchase. My buddy started calling it "Super Blue", and the name stuck. Somebody did a little body work and paint at some point, not the nicest, but it works for what I wanted. Other than that, not too much had been messed with on the truck which was a big plus for me. I have no idea what the motor was (a smaller V-8 of some kind, may very well be the original) and a manual 3-speed on the column.

I drove the truck the way I got it for a little while. I was away at college, and left it at my parents house. But I was back and forth almost every weekend racing cars and other things. Spring break of '06 came along, and I had no plans, so I buddy and I decided it was time for a motor swap. My brother had a GM FastBurn 385 and TH350 automatic sitting around collecting dust, so I laid claim to those and swapped them in.

The truck stayed that way for the next couple of years while I finished school and continued to pursue a racing career. It mostly sat at my parents house, but whenever I would come home for a day or two, I would drive it. My wife even decided we needed to have it in our engagement pictures. The racing dried up at the end of '08, and I moved home. With nothing to occupy my free time, I decided I might as well do some suspension and drivetrain upgrades to my truck. Before I realized what was happening, I had a bare frame on one side of the shop, and all of the body on the other side of the shop. Then a racing deal I couldn't pass up came my way, and the truck sat and collected dust for two years. At the end of 2011, the racing had dried up again, and my focus has been on this truck.

I knew I wanted to lower it, and put some sort of low-profile wheel and tire combination on it. I also knew I wanted to DRIVE it when I got done, a daily driver was the plan. Because the body is straight-appearing with no real issues (except what appears to be a cheap, faded, DIY paint job), body work and paint was out of the question for me. The hardest part of this build for me was deciding what to do with the suspension. Being a race car driver and very comfortable behind the wheel, I drive my cars aggressively. Not that I speed excessively, or drive like I'm on a racetrack or a maniac, but I do take corners faster than most, shoot tighter gaps, and brake harder for shorter periods of time. So if I was going to build a truck for myself, I was going to keep all of that in mind.

Now that I can see light at the end of the tunnel, I pretty much know what will be on the truck when it's finished. Check my signature for the high points. I'm going to see what pictures I can find of the work I've done, and post them up in chronological order. Just a warning, most (if not all) of them are cell phone pictures, so they suck. But at least I've got SOMETHING, that's a big feat for me!

[Portmod7]

So, when I started pulling the body off the frame, I started with the front clip and bed. I just wanted them out of the way for the suspension and drivetrain work. Well, I got to looking at the floorboard of the cab, and corners, and decided that I needed to do a little rust repair, so it came off too.

The rockers had been replaced at some point, and because of my "no paint" plan, I didn't want to mess with them any more than I had to. With the new complete floors on the market, I decided my best bet was to replace the entire floor of the cab rather than patch in the pieces I wanted to replace. That was my first rust repair adventure, but all in all it went well.

I'll have to look for my pictures, I was sure I had some of the repairs, but right now all I can find is pictures of what needed repaired. I ended up putting a Goodmark floor in, front corners, rear door pillars, and kick panels.

When I was done I sprayed the bottom with AL's Liner to protect it, and also to help keep the cab a little quieter.

[Portmod7]

There was wood in the bed when I got it, but it was just 1x6's laid in, and screwed to the cross sills, no bed strips at all. In that process of pulling the bed off, I learned that the only thing holding the bed to the frame was the step braces in the front of the wheel wells. Looking back, I don't see how in the world it stayed on.

Again, because I wanted a faded out driver, I didn't want "nice" wood in the bed. Before this truck, I had one just like it in high school. I had put new wood in that truck that I tried to put a nice finish on. Well, the finish did no hold up at all, and deteriorated away. I ended up rear ending a lady with that truck, and was so disgusted that I had messed the grille up (couldn't get reproductions at that time) I sold the truck to a friend of mine rather than fix it. Well, when I started working on the bed for this truck, I asked him about the wood out of the bed on the truck I sold him. He had completely disassembled my old truck, but still had the wood sitting around. So I went and got the wood, bought some new bed strips, went and got the paint on the tailgate matched and had some put in rattle cans, and put the sun faded wood in the bed of Super Blue.

The strips have nice shiny paint on them, but since I plan to use this truck as a truck and haul stuff, hopefully the strips won't be shiny and new looking for too long.

[Portmod7]

Originally Posted by MJs69CST

Bed looks great! A lot of hard work so far, keep it up!

Thank you!

I went home and was able to find a few more pictures on another computer. The floor had been patched in the past. My goal for the repairs was to make the cab a little more solid. I should have done more work to make it "right", but I was trying to draw the line somewhere. It really needed rear corners, better repair on the rear pillars, and the cowl needs a little repair too. The cab should be much more structurally solid now, and that's what I told myself the goal was. This really is a let down with out more "repaired" pictures, but I can't seem to locate any. I'll have to try to get a few before I put the front clip on.

[Portmod7]

Here's one of the new floor back in it, before the Al's Liner was sprayed on. It was such a HUGE relief to have this part of the project DONE. I absolutely HATE rust repair.

[Portmod7]

Jerked the motor out too. I wasn't sure what was going back in here at the time, so I just pulled it all. Didn't even disconnect the radiator, which seems really dumb now. I hate draining the cooling system because it always seems like it makes a HUGE mess. As hard as I try, I always end up with a big puddle of coolant under the vehicle, and I didn't want to work in it, so yeah...

[Portmod7]

Now maybe a little before and after... Once I got down to the frame, I really wanted to clean it up before I started bolting new suspension to it.

Not only do I HATE painting, but the powdercoat process provides such a nice, uniform, and durable coating (even in all the little nooks and crannies you could never hit with paint), so I took the frame and the few parts of the suspension I planned to use to my local powdercoater. I had my whole frame, rear housing, suspension pieces, and a couple other things sandblasted an coated for around $800. Money well spent I think.

Before I took it to powdercoat, I wanted to make sure I had any modifications done to the frame before hand. So that meant I needed to decide on a suspension setup, exhaust routing, etc. I seriously considered building a completely new frame, but decided that for a "driver" that would be a little overboard. Then I considered building my own control arms, triangulated 4-link rear, etc. I decided that would drag my project out way longer than I wanted, and again, too much work for a "driver".

At the time, Hotchkis was really the only company I could find who was building suspension components that were meant to handle well in the twisties, and I knew that's what I wanted from the start. Plus, the drop their stuff gives was exactly what I wanted for my truck, 4.5/6. But, their TVS kit is pretty pricey at $5,700 I thought about it for quite a while, did my homework over and over, and eventually decided Hotchkis is what I wanted. I talked to the wife and got approval, then logged on to the Summit website to place my order..... What do you know, it was on sale.... $3,800! On top of that, I didn't even get charged truck freight (still don't know why), only the normal 12.95 "handling fee".

Now that my truck is almost complete, it seems like there are quite a few more options out there for making your truck handle well. No Limit offers their Wide-Ride, Porterbuilt is making a coil-over version of their Dropmember, etc. It's probably a good thing I couldn't find those options when I was looking, I'd have never been able to make a decision!

[Portmod7]

A couple things you may notice......

The rear end housing is a full-floating 9" unit. As I said before, I've spent a lot of years racing cars. I've got a lot of parts left over, and this rear end housing was one of them. So I decided to ditch the 12-bolt and put this thing in there.

Also, I don't like panhard bars on cars/trucks that are meant to turn both left and right. Not only does the chassis move side to side over the rear end as the suspension travels (even with a long bar), but I don't think anyone will ever be able to convince me that the forces that influence handling are distributed the same during a right-hand turn as they are in a left-had turn when running a panhard bar.

NASCAR runs a panhard bar. Why? For one, because the rules say they have to. BUT, the reason the rules say that, is because when they decided to make that rule, the panhard bar was the best thing out there for locating the rear end on a car that turns left all day long. It's simple, efficient, easily adjustable, and the results of changes are very predictable. Plus, on a car that only turns one direction, the panhard bar flat does the best job. When NASCAR started going to road courses, they didn't want to change the rules on the rear suspension package and basically change how the whole car worked for just a couple races out of the year. So they made them stick with the panhard. But even Chad Knaus will tell you (and has stated on the NASCAR Performance show on TV) that a panhard bar is not optimal on a road course.

So, because the #1 goal for my truck was to handle well, I wanted to ditch the panhard bar that came original on the truck, and even comes with the Hotchkis TVS. I considered triangulated 4-links, wishbone type upper links, watts links, pretty much every way to keep the rear end under the car without using a panhard bar. The simplest and best thing I found is what I went with. It's a product from TSM Manufacturing, and they call it a "modified watts link". There are a couple different mounting options. I chose to mount mine in the center of the frame, and mount the links to the axle.

As simple and small is it is, I had a really hard time figuring out where to mount it without doing "major" frame modifications. TSM sells a bracket that bolts right to the pinion of a Ford 9" center section, and originally that's what I went with. But, with the amount of drop in the rear, the pinion mounted bracket would have hit the crossmember over the rear end at full suspension travel. What I finally ended up doing is mounting it in the crossmember behind the rear housing that is meant to strengthen the frame where the panhard attaches.

But it wasn't as simple as bolting it straight to the frame. The gap between the housing and the crossmember isn't big enough for the watts linkage to fit in. A Boyd's rear-mounted tank was in the build plans, so I couldn't move the crossmember or mount the watts behind it. What I noticed is that the mounting bracket for the watts would fit inside the back of the crossmember, with the moving parts actually passing through the crossmember and giving enough clearance to the housing. BINGO!

One more small issue was that the crossmember I mounted the watts to is angled in the frame. I wanted to make sure the watts was parallel to the housing, so I had a wedge shaped mounting spacer machined. I sandwiched the spacer between the crossmember and the watts bracket. It turned out really good, like it was meant to be!

[Portmod7]

I wanted to get the fuel tank out of the cab. Searching around for a tank, they were all pretty high-dollar. I had just about decided to do a stock style blazer tank or something similar. Then luckily I came across Boyd's tanks on this forum, and waited around for a group-buy.

I knew that eventually I wanted to go to fuel injection, so I ordered a tank with an EFI pump in it. The plan was to run a Mallory fuel pressure regulator before my carb. Then I'd be all plumbed for a simple efi conversion.

I ran into a little issue because of my watts link. It sticks out slightly into the area where the Boyd's tank goes, so I had to move the rear crossmember and tank back about 1/2" to clear my watts link. really not a big deal at all, and it didn't effect anything else in the rear of the truck.

Being lazy, I didn't want to run hard lines for fuel, so I got some push-lock hose from the local hydraulic shop, and ordered some black aluminum AN fittings for it. Should easily be good for the 43psi the efi kit I had my eye on needs, or the pressure needed for any other efi system out there.

[Portmod7]

When I started, I really hoped I would end up with an LS motor of some kind for this truck. And as it got closer to the time when I needed to make a decision, I figured I already had the FastBurn, and that it would be simpler to stick with that. Plus it belonged to my brother, he just had a kid and could use the cash, so it all just seemed to fit. I'm still not sure it was the right way to go, but for this project it will work fine.

Something I did that was a little different is mount the motor with 6-cylinder perches. I had them laying around from my highschool truck, and I knew they would set the motor back a little bit further than the v-8 ones. Since I want the truck to handle, getting the motor moved back as much as possible is a good idea. Even with the HEI distributor, the engine fit fine on the I-6 perches. I used an automatic crossmember for the transmission, and it bolted up to an existing set of holes in the frame, I was a little surprised.

I also decided I wanted a manual transmission this time around. I didn't want to spend the money on a 5 or 6-speed, and I wanted more than a 3-speed so the gears wouldn't be so far apart. I wanted to run a really high rear end ratio for high-speed highway cruising, so a low first gear ratio in the transmission was important. I did some research a found a Saginaw 4-speed to be a cheap option. I also learned that they came in Chevy Vega's behind 4-cylinders with a 3.11 first gear ratio for a couple years. I called the local salvage yard, they had one, so I went and picked it up, $300. The Vega it came out of (a '74 if I remember right) was unbelievably clean. It looked like someone got a flat, abandoned it on the side of the road, and ended up in the salvage yard. I ALMOST wanted to rescue it. As good as the car looked and it only being a 4-cylinder, I decided to take my chances and just put new seals in the transmission, clean it up, and run it. Used a hydraulic throwout bearing for the clutch to get rid of all the manual linkage.

So once I had decided on an engine an tranny, I bolted them in and built the exhaust. I bought some Sanderson shorty headers built to match the D-shaped exhaust ports on my FastBurn heads. I went with short headers because I knew my truck would be semi low, and I didn't want to drag the exhaust over every speed bump.

I ordered a bunch of Dynomax u-bends and got some straight sections of pipe from my local parts store. It really was a lot of fun building the system, and also very challenging. One word of advice, DON'T use Dynomax bends. Whatever process they use to make the bends distorts/stretches/shrinks the pipe even though they are sold as "mandrel" bends. SPD Exhaust would be a good source that N2BILLET turned me onto after I built my system. The pieces I bought really made the whole thing look like crap. But it was a good experience, I learned a LOT, and once again, good enough for my "driver".

The mufflers are Hushpower/Flowmaster dBX units. I settled on those after listening to Flowmasters sound clips on YouTube. Another added plus (I hope) is that the interior resonance is supposed to be "low".

When I was all done with the exhaust I had the same guys who powdercoated my chassis apply a thermal coating to both the inside and outside of the system.

[Portmod7]

Speaking of the transmission, that brings me to probably my favorite part of this build so far. And the reason it's my favorite, is because I really feel like I made this part my own, and did something original. I don't have the truck on the road yet, so actual performance is not yet known, but I think it's going to be really cool.

This is my second one of these trucks. Both started out as manual 3-speeds shifted on the column. Both ended up getting swapped to 3-speed autos with a B&M shifter on the floor. Well, I wanted to do something different this time around. Manuals are so much fun to drive. You have to be more "engaged" with the car to get it down the road. Power transmission is more direct and less power is robbed. You "feel" the whole vehicle better with a manual transmission.

The downsides to a manual are that you either have to put a shifter in the floor or mess with the crappy linkage on the steering column. I don't like shifters on the floor of trucks. I don't know why, I just don't. Plus, if your girl wants to ride in the middle, you're constantly bouncing the shifter off her knees. She usually doesn't like that.

Other than the linkage problems, I think shifting a manual on the column is cool. It's nostalgic, you don't see that any more. So that's what I decided to do. A manual 4-speed transmission, shifted on the column.

Getting 4 forward gears is easy. But what about reverse? And the linkage assemblies are terrible. So, the solution I came up with is cable linkage with reverse on a handle under the dash. I custom ordered some mechanical push/pull (or commonly referred to as Morse cables) in the lengths I needed. I added a cable to control my parking brake while I was at it. Then I built all my brackets and connected the cables to my controls and the transmission.

I think it turned out pretty cool. It's definitely going to be different. Shifting it right now, without the engine running or the truck going down the road, it does really really well. I took the column apart and cleaned out all the gunk, relubricated everything. Then I made some adjustments to the linkage. I can go from 2nd to 3rd with no problem, and in a hurry. For those of you used to shifting on a column, you know that can easily be a problem. Getting hung between gears is common, mine doesn't do that. I can also make a 3-2 downshift equally as well.

[Portmod7]

For the brakes, I wanted to do disc all the way around. The Hotchkis kit was setup to run 73-87 disc brake spindles anyway. So I got some Wilwood D52 calipers, CPP stock-height spindles, and some CPP drilled and slotted rotors, all from Scott's Hot Rods right here on the board. Out back, my rear end already had brackets for GM Metric style calipers, so I got some Wilwood D154 calipers from Scott's also. This was by far the cheapest way to get a decent Wilwood brake system on the truck.

I tried to size the piston area of the calipers so that I wouldn't have to run a proportioning valve. We'll see how that turns out. Not that it would be a big deal to run one, I just wanted to see what I could do without one. I can add one in later easy enough if I don't have it sized correctly. I've got around a 6" piston area up front, and 2" in the back.

For the master cylinder, I bought the aluminum Wilwood piece that a lot of people are using in a variety of applications. Because I didn't want the clutter or cost of a booster, I decided to keep my brakes manual, and went with a 7/8" bore master cylinder. I'm hoping that gives me a nice firm feel and some decent pedal travel.

I also used a Wilwood clutch master cylinder that I had leftover in my racing equipment. Put a hole in the firewall for that and mounted the linkage to the clutch pedal.

I ran all new brake lines. I just got a 25' coil of 3/16" NiCopp brake line, AN tube nuts and sleeves, and some AN bulkheads. I find using tube nuts and sleeves is a MUCH easier flaring process, plus they are meant to be worked on over and over if you need to.

When I ordered my Watts link from TSM, I also purchased a pinion mounted parking brake. Always nice to have a parking brake. I had to build a bracket to mount the control cable. I used the stock 67-68 e-brake handle in the cab to control it.

[Portmod7]

Originally, I had planned to run a carb I had laying around to save a little money up front, then switch over later. Well, I have quite a bit of free time at work, and was surfing the internet and found a deal on a FAST throttle body I couldn't pass up. It's the same one you get with the EZ-EFI kits. It came with all the sensors and injectors for $400. It was one that had been used in the FAST dyno room a couple times, then sold off. You can barely even tell it was used.

So, since it didn't come with any of the wiring, computer, etc. I was on the search for a way to control the electrical side of things. I stumbled onto something called MegaSquirt. It's a DIY fuel injection ECU. You can either buy the ECU complete, or solder the whole thing together yourself. I opted to do it myself to save some money, and learn what makes these systems tick. Then you program it, build your wiring harness, and you have fuel injection!

This is basically where I'm at on the truck now. I need to put this ECU together and get my harness built. This is going to be a huge challenge, I've never done anything like this before. But there's only one way to learn!

I also need to get the rest of my wiring squared away. I'll need a relay for my fuel pump, I plan to build a headlight harness/relay, and I'll be getting an Entropy radiator with dual fans that needs a relay and harness too.

[gringoloco]

LOVE this truck! Great work so far- shift linkage, exhaust, and 'watts' link all look good. I'll be watching this one...

Have fun with the MegaSquirt- there's definitely a learning curve, but it will pay off when you can say you did it completely yourself. Really like the direction you're headed with the paint and wood floor, too. What's the plan for wheels?

Sent you a PM for some info

[Portmod7]

Originally Posted by gringoloco

LOVE this truck! Great work so far- shift linkage, exhaust, and 'watts' link all look good. I'll be watching this one...

Have fun with the MegaSquirt- there's definitely a learning curve, but it will pay off when you can say you did it completely yourself. Really like the direction you're headed with the paint and wood floor, too. What's the plan for wheels?

Sent you a PM for some info

Thanks for the kind words!

I am EXCITED about the MegaSquirt for sure. Ought to be a heck of an experience, ha ha.

I am 99% sure what I want for wheels. Going to go with Eagle 225's in 20x8.5. I've always loved the Intro Pentia's, but those are EXPENSIVE. No doubt they are worth it, but probably not for this project. So this is a great alternative for me. The truck below is one of my favorites, and I really like the way the wheels look against the patina. So that's kind of what I'm shooting for.

I say 99% because a small part of me want to run some Coy's or Boss 338's. Also, the Eagle 225's only come in 4.5" and 5" BS. 5" is perfect for the rear of my truck, my rear end is going to end up being 62-1/2" wide, 1/2" wider than the "narrow" rear ends that came in these trucks. Typically it looks like 4.75 BS is what you want, so I should be perfect. But on the front, I'm not sure if the 5" BS is going to get it done. Everybody seems to be running around 5.5 or so. BUT, my front end is different than everybody I've been able to compare to, so I'm just going to have to do some measuring. I know for sure my lower control arms are 1" shorter, and I think my spindles are the new CPP version that are supposed to keep the front end narrow.

Sent you a PM back. Hope it helps. Let me know if I can get you any more information.

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I also made a little progress last night. The MegaSquirt has the option of assembling what they call the "Stimulator" to use as a tool when you are building the main computer. The Stimulator basically simulates an engine with all the O2, Idle Air, TPS, etc. sensors. You plug it into your ECU, then plug the ECU into your computer, and watch how the ECU responds to the input it's getting from the Stimulator. The Stimulator uses POT's to simulate all the sensors so that you can vary the signal back to the ECU to make sure it's responding as it should. Pretty cool!

You build the Stimulator, just as you build the ECU. The kit comes with a clear board, bags of resistors, capacitors, and other pieces. Then you follow the directions to solder the whole thing together. It was really pretty straight forward, and fun. I had never soldered anything before, and starting out was a challenge. But after I had made 10 or so solders, I really got the hang of it, and cruised through the project. I didn't bridge any connections or have to repair anything after I was done. And best I can tell, I didn't get any cold joints either.

So far, I would definitely recommend this to anyone who's got the interest and the patience to do a project like this.

[gringoloco]

Nice work on the MS and I think the 225s will look great- perfect alternative to big$ billets. Pretty sure that Hot Rod City truck is on most people's top 10 list Sounds like the 5" BS will work out well for you, assuming your front track-width is narrowed as much as you think it is. Thanks again for the shock info- I think they will work out for my app. Good luck!

[VA72C10]

Great story and great build! Looking forward to following along as you button it up and get it on the road!

[Tinkermc]

man I'm hooked great build so far and like most all choices, will have to keep watching

[n2billet]

I love the mechanical feel to this build plus all the top notch parts used!

[thor]

very cool!

[72chevynoob]

Awesome transmission linkages! Def. subscribed!
Posted via Mobile Device

[Portmod7]

Originally Posted by gringoloco

Nice work on the MS and I think the 225s will look great- perfect alternative to big$ billets. Pretty sure that Hot Rod City truck is on most people's top 10 list Sounds like the 5" BS will work out well for you, assuming your front track-width is narrowed as much as you think it is. Thanks again for the shock info- I think they will work out for my app. Good luck!

I've got a friend who is all about the shine of the paint, and I don't think he'd like the Hot Rod City truck at all. Makes me wonder what the heck is wrong with him and how we've remained friends, ha ha! Glad I could help with the shocks!

Originally Posted by VA72C10

Great story and great build! Looking forward to following along as you button it up and get it on the road!

Thank you! It feels like it's so close, then I get done with a days worth of little projects and it seems like nothings happened overall, but it's getting there!

Originally Posted by Tinkermc

man I'm hooked great build so far and like most all choices, will have to keep watching

Thank you!

Originally Posted by n2billet

I love the mechanical feel to this build plus all the top notch parts used!

Thank you! Mechanical is where my mind is for sure. I'm not much of an artist or creative thinker, but when it comes to the mechanical end my mind really gets carried away.

Originally Posted by thor

very cool!

Thanks!

Originally Posted by 72chevynoob

Awesome transmission linkages! Def. subscribed!
Posted via Mobile Device

Thank you! I hope they function well going down the road, it's going to be a blast to drive if they do.

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Not much of an update, but I got about a 1/3 of my ECU built/soldered/constructed. Was able to test the power circuits and everything checked out, I guess I melted solder in the right holes!

I got off work early today, so I'm headed to grab lunch with a friend. Then to the shop I go to hopefully assemble most of the interior. Hoping to have some good progress pictures to share tonight or tomorrow!

[Portmod7]

Alright, I got some quick "after" pictures the other day before I put my floormat in. No more rust in the floor, kick panels, or the front corners of the cab. Mission accomplished. Plus, I didn't have to pull the rockers off, icing on the cake.

As you can see, I put FatMat down and tried to cover the flat portions of sheet metal, as well as some other areas. I've never really messed with this stuff before, and I didn't find it very enjoyable. But, I do want the cab to be as quiet as possible, so I felt it was necessary. My only word of caution is that when you get ready to stick this stuff, BE READY, because it really sticks. I'm not very impressed with the quality of the job I did, but it ought to get the job done and it's under the floormat anyway. I will do one nicer than this one day.

I decided to go with the vacuum molded vinyl from LMC, which comes with the insulation pad you see in the pictures. No pictures of that just yet, I'm still trying to get it to smooth out. What a PAIN this thing was. It requires a fair amount of trimming and because of the way they package it for shipping, it arrives with some serious creases that make it tough to fit it to the floorboard, much less get it to lay flat. My best advice, go to member Bruce88's "It's Just A Pickup" thread and start at post #556. He did an excellent job of explaining how to install one of these.

I also put in a new firewall insulation pad assembly from GMC Paul's while I was under there. The original had been soaked in brake fluid from a leaking master cylinder. This thing would have been much easier to install with the stuff behind the dash removed, but I managed to get it in there.

[Portmod7]

More Pictures......

[Portmod7]

Couple More.....