Is this the new normal for parts.....ie Vortec dist. cap

[speedygonzales]

If you don't want to read, caps seem to be failing internally now. 5.7L Vortec.

If you don't own an engine with the "correct-a-cap". This info probably won't help you.

So for years I've gone through caps and rotors on average about every 3 years. The previous caps would eventually give me longer than normal cranking and/or no start. When you look at the inside of the cap, it's contacts where white frost covered. As expected with firing a spark through cheap ass aluminum. Brass terminal caps are getting harder to find than they used to be.

The last 2 caps (make that 3 caps) have had misfires, bucking, hesitation and backfiring. Which I can only contribute to what I term "cross firing" to adjacent traces. Allow me to explain.

The first "misfire" cap incident happened 1 to 1 1/2 years ago. I'm driving home and all of a sudden out of no where. It bucks hard as in misfire. Continues OK and out of no where another. This gradually gets worse to point it won't run at all.
I change out plugs wires and cap and rotor. It's just as bad, so I get tired of dealing with it. I give it to my neighbor that has a shop and after a few days finds it's the cap. The NEW Delco cap I put on.

Now keep in mind I replaced the old cap with an entirely new Delco cap which I still have as a memento. He got another cap and fixed the problem. That was the year to 1 1/2 years ago.

Fast forward to the other day, 1/2/19 and I'm driving to work and out of nowhere, bamm it's bucking and farting popping and so on just like before.

Never giving a check engine light. Either before or this time either.

Having dealt with this before, I knew where to start. So I just got done changing cap and rotor and problem for now solved.

My feeling is that either the caps are made from an inferior material that has lower than required dielectric strength OR the material that is used inside the cap to provide the paths to the terminals is not being put where it should be and in some cases is too close to one another and begins to "crossfire".

On the surface, I attribute this to inferior manufacturing probably caused by moving construction to less than adequate countries. But who really knows.

Just wanted to express my frustration.

[Tom]

I'd say its weather related. Here in Phoenix I changed the oem cap at around 120k miles and 10yrs old because tune up. Current one is about 70k and another 10yrs on it without issues.

[Mr_Rich]

Since smog testing is required every two years here in Calif. I always made it a point to replace my ignition parts before the testing. I always liked to use Accel dist. caps with the brass contacts until they started making them in China. They didn't fit right any more. I try to use exclusively USA made parts like dist. caps on my engine. True; hard to find. When you live closer to the coast like myself then there is more dampness which creates more of that oxidation on the contacts than drier climates, in my thinking anyway. I think it's hard to get quality parts now, period.

[sntrym95]

I don't have a Vortec ignition system, but I did a little research. I typically use Standard parts for electrical replacement as they seem to be of good to high quality and last a long time.

I looked on their site for the dizzy cap - https://www.standardbrand.com/en/ecatalog - and found it, along with some instructions for under the hood. Hopefully these will help. https://eaccess.smpcorp.com/eCatalog...MD/GF9813B.pdf

[speedygonzales]

So here's a little update.

I confirmed with the neighbor that he fixed it on 12/18/17. So the problem came back in a year.

The cap I got is a Standard DR474 since I work at O'Reilly's.

While the neighbor was fixing it, he went through 2 more caps until he got the good one that lasted this one. Year.

So the one I had went bad a year ago. The NEW Delco I tried to fix it with was bad, 2 more the neighbors shop got from 2 other parts stores was bad before he finally got a good one.

1 year later, mine goes bad while driving.

Just can't wait to get the rest of the RamJet conversion done so I can move to a more conventional cap that doesn't have a "correct-a-cap".

[sntrym95]

Yikes. I'm glad I stuck with the TBI system. The Vortec heads are great but the ignition/fuel system is crap.

[95 S_Trucker]

There is a TSB from GM that says to remove the vent screens in the distributor. I use standard motor products caps. I’ve had the same one on my 99 for 6 years/70,000 miles.


Subject:
Poor Engine Performance - Misfire, Rough Idle, Stalls, Engine Cranks but Does Not Run, Service Engine Soon/Check Engine Light Illuminated, DTC P0300 Set (Inspect Distributor Ignition (DI) System Components and Replace As Necessary)

Condition

Some customers may comment on poor engine performance and the Service Engine Soon/Check Engine light being illuminated. Upon investigation, the technician may find DTC P0300 set.

Cause

This condition may be due to high levels of internal corrosion in the distributor, causing misfire, rough idle, stall and Engine Cranks But Does Not Run. This corrosion is attributed to a lack of airflow internal to the cap caused by the vent screens being clogged with debris.

Correction

Remove the vent screens and inspect the internal components of the Distributor Ignition System using the procedure listed below. If the distributor base has to be replaced, the vent screens will also have to be removed on the new distributor. If there is evidence of this internal corrosion, replace the affected component. Refer to the appropriate procedure in the Engine Controls sub-section of the applicable Service Manual.

Important: All of these inspections can be done on-vehicle.
1. Inspect the distributor cap. You may notice a white residue on the cap walls. For higher mileage occurrences, the interior of the cap may have changed to medium brown in color
2. Inspect the distributor rotor. You may notice the presence of black streaks on the plastic surface. More typical evidence would be visible green spots on the copper surface of the rotor segment.
3. Inspect the distributor base. You may notice high levels of surface rust on the distributor shaft or surface contamination on the sensor hold down screws.


4. Inspect the distributor vent screens (1). If the vent screens are present, remove them by using a plastic-handled, long blade awl or pick (2). Insert into the airflow vent screens and pop them out. Refer to the figure for removal procedure. If the vent screens have been removed from the base of the distributor, then check the airflow inlets for being clogged with debris.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by Tom

I'd say its weather related. Here in Phoenix I changed the oem cap at around 120k miles and 10yrs old because tune up. Current one is about 70k and another 10yrs on it without issues.

Smithfield, Virginia is right across the end of the James River from Newport News here the James River bay empties into the end of the Chesapeake bay and the Atlantic ocean.
That area is a bit more than hellaciously humid in the summer. Newport News is closely akin to Hotlanta Georgia in the summer.
I bet there's plenty of fresh ocean air there... Along with that fresh smell and humidity is a fair amount of sea salt. That ain't good for stuff made of metal. It's especially bad for really reactive metals like the aluminum posts used in cheaper distributor caps. Brass won't fare a lot better but it'll last a little longer than Aluminum.

[speedygonzales]

Always appreciate useful feedback. The vent information is helpful although not in this case.

I got rid of the original plastic distributor many years ago and don't have filter screens in the aluminum replacement.

As I mentioned (maybe it was missed) there were 3 brand new caps out of the box that were DOA. No amount of humidity would account for that. Nor would the screens.

Brings me back to what I said in the first place. The internal traces are not being laid down properly prior to injection molding. You can see that referred to here in this page from Echlin ignition products.

http://www.napaechlin.com/media/2486...utor-Issue.pdf

They mention they use brass material which resists bending during the molding process. This is the problem with many new caps. Not corrosion.

Here is some really useful information if you have severe misfires and don't get a CEL. On other boards people have reported they had a misfire to cylinder 3. One guy found it accidentally when he pulled the 3 plug wire and his engine ran compared to with it on and it would not.

This is one of the problems areas which is occurring between the center post and adjacent #3 trace internal to the cap. Here's an inside look at a distributor cap showing the internal traces:
inside cap view
Don't give me grief about the white corrosion on this cap. I could have taken a picture of the new cap that failed but this used one was near by.

That boomerang trace next to the center contact is the #3 plug. It seems many fail right between the 2. Considering this type of failure wasn't a problem until a year ago, and I owned the truck for 20 years now. I would have to say the manufacturing process is suffering or as I said before, could be a dielectric strength issue with the plastic.

So if your Gen I Vortec is missfiring like a *****, pull the #3 plug wire off. If it then runs (better) or at all if it wasn't, the cap is surely bad. BUT be warned, I had this problem a year ago and the new cap out of the box had the same problem. I still have that new cap if
anyone wants to try it. There are other misfire conditions to these type caps but the #3 is no question.

Here are photos of the distributor vents:
top side dist

bottom side dist

These are for the people searching the internet for vent screens on a Vortec distributor.

EDIT one last item I researched the service bulletin .TSB # 03-06-04-041A
Here is the link: http://www.oemautoparts.net/downloads/PB2.pdf

In it is not only the vents issue but I think more importantly an issue with oil vapors from a defective PCV system. Obviously this will be more of an issue with the OEM plastic distributor which suffers upper bushing wear.

Just FYI

[speedygonzales]

After having thought about it and mentioning this type of "crossfire" problem was not a problem until a year ago.

I feel the problem is 2 things depending on the failure.

My old symptoms after about 2 years used to be long cranking or no start.

Starting a year ago, the symptoms are now, misfiring like a bastard. This will occur after some use, (so far in my case 1 year). OR it will occur right out of the box.

The old symptoms were most likely something to do with environment. Since others in dry climates get a lot more life out of theirs.

However I have not heard much from people that have bought newer caps. The people commenting it seems had caps of much older vintage.

But I will say this due to the fact that I've never had a crossfiring condition until a year ago. Even though the climate here is the same for the last 20 years (obviously).

The manufacturing process has changed (or there or idiots doing what smarter people used to be doing). Or they are using substandard (read low dielectric strength plastic) in the manufacturing process.

One last comment: When looking at the Echlin cap, the new Napa page says aluminum. Haven't checked to see if that is true or a typo.

Although Accel is using brass, apparently they are also suffering from poor assembly quality. Here's the information about internal shorts or as I call it "crossfiring" from the center to #3 plug contact posted on the summit website. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...et/model/k1500

More good news on Amazon website https://www.amazon.com/ACCEL-ACC-120...ustomerReviews

[pwdcougar]

Great information here. I'm filing all this away in my head for future reference.

Thanks for posting all of this. I love my 97 Silverado and want to keep it forever!

Paul

[speedygonzales]

Originally Posted by pwdcougar

I love my 97 Silverado and want to keep it forever!

Paul

I hear ya and I agree, That's why mine is 20 years old and still going strong.

I dislike 3 things about the engine. Obviously the distributor.

The other 2 are the lousy intake/injector system and last, the plastic timing cover.

Here are the easy ways to deal with all three:

aluminum vortec dist.

replacement fuel injectors

and possibly new to many people

cast aluminum timing cover

[LEEVON]

This is why we dislike working on older vehicles in my shop. Parts are so hit and miss. Last cap I put on a personal vehicle was Napa/Echlin and is going stong, doesn't see many miles though. It does "feel" more substantial but of course you can't see inside of one. Coils are just as bad. If somebody brings us a GM vehicle with a distributor and they have been replacing parts, we decline service...there's just no baseline and not enough "known good parts" to start with, even if everything is NEW. We did get roped into a '97 Silverado this week, only because the customer thought it was the fuel pump we replaced last year. After nearly 6 hours of troubleshooting we found a wire harness issue, was frying the coil after an hour or more of driving.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by speedygonzales

I hear ya and I agree, That's why mine is 20 years old and still going strong.

I dislike 3 things about the engine. Obviously the distributor.

The other 2 are the lousy intake/injector system and last, the plastic timing cover.

Here are the easy ways to deal with all three:

aluminum vortec dist.

replacement fuel injectors

and possibly new to many people

cast aluminum timing cover

That distributor has what looks like the same cap as the original.
Can you get an old fashioned cap without all that wire embedded in dubious plastic for these?

[speedygonzales]

Originally Posted by LEEVON

We did get roped into a '97 Silverado this week, only because the customer thought it was the fuel pump we replaced last year. After nearly 6 hours of troubleshooting we found a wire harness issue, was frying the coil after an hour or more of driving.

I'm right there bud. After 20 years of my own mower shop and now working at O'Reilly's I know the customer always blames something from the shop/store. It's never a new problem or something they could have done.

Although what you could have done with the 97 was put voltage directly on the pump wires and prove it was working and then say "have a nice day".

Originally Posted by hatzie

That distributor has what looks like the same cap as the original.
Can you get an old fashioned cap without all that wire embedded in dubious plastic for these?

Unfortunately the signal relied on by the Vortec PCM needs one that only comes from a Vortec distributor and that means there is only one cap design.

The Vortec cap has a flat on one side. Unlike any other cap

[speedygonzales]

Originally Posted by LEEVON

We did get roped into a '97 Silverado this week, only because the customer thought it was the fuel pump we replaced last year.

A few months ago a lady comes up to the O'Reilly's desk and proceeds to tell me she got a battery for her Mini about 6 months ago and it's absolute junk. Real pissy attitude.

I tell her well mam there are a few reasons a battery may have a problem unrelated to the battery. How about we go out and test the battery in your vehicle. So the test comes up, "charge and retest". With a bad battery, we can't test the alternator until the battery is in good condition.

They arrange to leave the vehicle and I'll pull it out and charge and test it. While they are gone, it comes up in charge and tests FINE.

So they come back and ask me about it and I tell them the battery is fine. Well you could just see the wind come out of her nasty sails. I then reinstall the battery and tell them to fire it up so I can test the alternator. They are witness to my tester coming up in nice big letters, "ALTERNATOR FAIL".

Didn't get a thank you, sorry for *****ing at you, nothing.

Have a nice day biotch. Even my boss smiled after that story.

[pwdcougar]

Originally Posted by speedygonzales

I hear ya and I agree, That's why mine is 20 years old and still going strong.

I dislike 3 things about the engine. Obviously the distributor.

The other 2 are the lousy intake/injector system and last, the plastic timing cover.

Here are the easy ways to deal with all three:

aluminum vortec dist.

replacement fuel injectors

and possibly new to many people

cast aluminum timing cover

So far I've only done the injector upgrade. Maybe when it gets warmer I'll do the distributor and the timing cover. I'm going to jinx myself here and note that I'm on my 2nd distributor cap after 140K and 22 years.

Thanks again Speedy for the links and info

Paul

[legendman]

I just went through this misfire issue on a 1999 K2500 I just picked up.
I used a Standard cap and rotor and misfire is gone.
Good info here.

[337]

what's the best aftermarket non plastic aluminum or billet distributor recommendation?

i have been having the same issues now and starting to go through caps and rotors like daily underwear. it's gets bad when it's humid or raining. at 210k miles,

after all weekend of rain, today my truck didn't start.
New cap and rotor(under warranty from 4months ago) and truck fired up.

I need to find the reason why it is burn through caps and rotors so quickly.
i'd figure it's time to just change the whole assembly.

[1971 GMC SHORTY]

When I Rebuilt my motor 100400 miles I Did MSD Dist And It Came with Brass Cap, I’ve Been Driving it in California Rain last Few Weeks And Runs Perfect
I put Holley Aluminum Timing Cover

[Richard]

Have a 2000 c2500 work truck with 240,000 miles (400 chassis) was running badly. Did the spider upgrade and a full tune up. Ran great. About 6 months later was missing again. Pulled the manifold again and did the intake gaskets again thinking I screwed up. Still ran like crap. Turns out the "premium" distributor cap from Oreilly's was bad. Crossfire inside the cap. Replaced under warranty. Unfortunately it has been replaced again. I did not bother ordering the Delco because I suspect it is probably made at the same place.

[Kudzupatch]

I think the quality of most all aftermarket parts are going down hill. About pulled my hair out trying to figure out what was wrong with a TBI motor a few years ago. Turned out my new plug wires were bad.
Ignition modules failing after 2-3 months.
Distributor caps failing after a 6 months.

I tend to buy AC Delco parts now and avoid aftermarket parts for street cars.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by Kudzupatch

I think the quality of most all aftermarket parts are going down hill. About pulled my hair out trying to figure out what was wrong with a TBI motor a few years ago. Turned out my new plug wires were bad.
Ignition modules failing after 2-3 months.
Distributor caps failing after a 6 months.

I tend to buy AC Delco parts now and avoid aftermarket parts for street cars.

You can't be brand loyal anymore. It seems AC Delco is sourcing stuff from China and other manufacturers now. GM parts from the dealership like the transfer case seals and bearings I ordered for my NV263 have "Made in China" on them too. I refused them and bought Western made FAG, Timken, and SKF bearings and SKF seals.
I've recently opened a Delco box and found a Dorman part inside. Took it back and we discovered the other two Delco boxes on the shelf had Dorman Chinese parts inside too.

I recently bought an Echlin EVAP Vent Valve at NAPA that was made right here in the USA according to the box. I'll take that over Chinese floor sweepings that Delco is charging twice the price or more for.

The low quality crap coming from China is just a continuation of the trade war they've waged against us since congress gave them the lower tarriffs associated with MFN status late in 1979.

[Kudzupatch]

Originally Posted by hatzie

....I've recently opened a Delco box and found a Dorman part inside. .

I worked at a Wagner plant in a previous life. We made master and wheel cylinders and a few other odd brake parts.

One thing I learned was that say NAPA was buying brake parts from Bendix, our competitor. Our salesman convinced them to buy Wagner brakes. They sent in a team to remove all the Bendix parts on the shelf and replace then with Wagner parts.

The Bendix parts that were pulled were repacked in Wagner boxes and eventually end up back in the supply chain.

We bought parts from Bendix we didn't make and packaged them in our boxes. They did the same thing and not just them. It was quite common and I assume that hasn't changed.

On lower volume items it was cheaper to buy them from our competitor than spend thousands and thousands of dollars in tooling to make them.

While I strongly prefer American made products, what matters is the quality of the part. I would rather have a well made Chinese part than a cheap made American. Unfortunately made in America doesn't mean it is well made.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by Kudzupatch

I worked at a Wagner plant in a previous life. We made master and wheel cylinders and a few other odd brake parts.

One thing I learned was that say NAPA was buying brake parts from Bendix, our competitor. Our salesman convinced them to buy Wagner brakes. They sent in a team to remove all the Bendix parts on the shelf and replace then with Wagner parts.

The Bendix parts that were pulled were repacked in Wagner boxes and eventually end up back in the supply chain.

We bought parts from Bendix we didn't make and packaged them in our boxes. They did the same thing and not just them. It was quite common and I assume that hasn't changed.

On lower volume items it was cheaper to buy them from our competitor than spend thousands and thousands of dollars in tooling to make them.

While I strongly prefer American made products, what matters is the quality of the part. I would rather have a well made Chinese part than a cheap made American. Unfortunately made in America doesn't mean it is well made.

It's almost an oxymoron to put Chinese and well made in the same sentence.

While it's theoretically possible to get well made Chinese parts it's dumb blind luck to actually find them.

The statistical probability of getting well made parts made in the US or Canada is much better.