Engine messed up. Replace or rebuild?

[Dclassen]

Well my 72 K5 has been in the shop all week after running weird. I believe it was rebuilt less than 30k miles ago. Long story short I just talked to the guy at the shop and he said he popped open the head covers and there was no ****ing oil in it. Said was out of alignment and I would need to replace camshaft or replace the whole thing and they were still looking at it. Keep in mind these guys get 5 star raving reviews for good work and honesty. Honestly I just wanna go cry right now. How would this have happened? I just got the oil changed about a month ago. I'd be SOL trying to sell it so I'm thinking a new motor would be better. I couldn't part with this truck, my dad drove it for 15 years. Any ideas would help, I barely know anything mechanically.

[truckster]

If it wasn't getting oil, you've likely got more damage than what you can see right now.

It used to be significantly cheaper to rebuild engines, but these days you can get a crate motor with a warranty for around what you'd have to pay just for machine work and parts.

[70-K5]

I'd like to know how they determined that there was no oil by taking off the valve covers. the top of the heads have drain holes so all the oil returns to the pan, so there shouldn't be any oil up there.

And what inspection did they do to determine the engine was out of alignment, I hope that is a translation as no reputable machine shop will use that language. I'm very skeptical of all shops and mechanics, I've known some and seen some and talked to some that all want to do more than they need to. They see a mark like a con-man and see what they can get out of them.

Can we start with a description of what the engine was doing that led you to taking it to the shop?

[Rufton]

I'd watch them inspect oil/oil filter element for metal shavings.

[Dclassen]

Originally Posted by 70-K5

I'd like to know how they determined that there was no oil by taking off the valve covers. the top of the heads have drain holes so all the oil returns to the pan, so there shouldn't be any oil up there.

And what inspection did they do to determine the engine was out of alignment, I hope that is a translation as no reputable machine shop will use that language. I'm very skeptical of all shops and mechanics, I've known some and seen some and talked to some that all want to do more than they need to. They see a mark like a con-man and see what they can get out of them.

Can we start with a description of what the engine was doing that led you to taking it to the shop?

Well it started a month or 2 back when I was driving on the highway and the ac compressor started squealing and smoking. I had them redo the A/C system and shortly after it wasn't running well at all. Few weeks after I had the A/C done, I was driving through an apartment complex and went over some huge speed bumps on my way out, each time I hit a bump, the engine died out and I had to start it back up. After that incident is when it really started acting up. It was just running really badly, making strange noises. Yes what I recounted was just using my language and probably isn't exactly what he told me. I am inclined to believe them however, they had helped me out before by going out of their way to inspect the truck and tell me what it had on it free of charge when we were thinking of selling it. Guy even told me it needed about 800$ of work and not to bother getting it done.

[Rufton]

They will probably go out of their way to show proof.

[old man jimmy]

when you hit the speed bump, I bet it knocked the oil pump pickup of the pump. They're just pressed in. If that happened, you will have pressure when you first start it, then as the oil gets pumped up into the rest of the motor, your pump won't be able to reach the oil, and you'll loose you pressure. shut it off, let the oil drain back into the pan, and you'll have pressure again for a little while. If you haven't drove it without any oil pressure, it should be ok. At least that's my first guess from what your saying. I'm with everyone else who says "motor out of alignment" makes no sense to me at all. Don't have a clue what he's talking about. Good luck with it.

[old man jimmy]

Sorry, I miss read you statement. I thought you lost oil pressure.. Did he by any chance tell you your motor was "out of time?" if so you're timing chain may have jumped a link from the jolt. I guess I got the "no oil" in my head from your earlier post about no oil to the rockers. The chain should be in good shape if it was rebuilt 30k ago. I can't imagine anybody building a motor and not replacing the chain and gears. The original cam gear had nylon coated teeth, and they got brittle and broke apart with age. Everything is just a guess, can't tell much without checking it out. But back to you're original question. If he wants 800. to fix it. I would go with a crate 350. Last one I got was around a grand, and had 3 yr. guarentee.

[70-K5]

Originally Posted by Dclassen

I am inclined to believe them ...

Unless your mother gave birth to him, never trust a mechanic. So many times you go in for an AC repair, then something else goes wrong so you're in for another $800. Then the brakes start to squeak so you're $600 into them. Then the fuel system needs a flush($200) then the repairs keep going. Pretty soon you're $12,000 into the repairs and now you decide to sell it and you can't get half what you have into it, Granted Gen1 K5's are appreciating and are much rarer than Camaro's or Mustangs. I'm sorry and I feel like I'm on a soap box right now but these rigs are so easy to work on and with a few basic tools you can really learn how to fix them yourself. I'm an advocate for self maintenance and home repair instead of paying a mechanics SnapOn bill.

Originally Posted by old man jimmy

If he wants 800. to fix it. I would go with a crate 350. Last one I got was around a grand, and had 3 yr. guarentee.

You can buy a crate motor for $1,000 but he'd be another grand in the hole putting the engine in.


For $800 it has to be a pretty simple fix, probably about 3-4 hours with under $300 in parts. That could be a timing chain, but as described, that shouldn't be bad if the motor is relatively fresh. I'm guessing the motor was rebuilt by the previous owner?

[mtully79]

This may sound dumb, but when you had the oil changed did they put oil back in? My wife's car had an oil change done by the dealer a year ago and she said it was driving funny on the way home. I checked the dipstick to see if they used crummy oil and it was nearly bone dry. Some bonehead at the dealer changed the filter but never put any oil back in and said he thought someone else had done it. We've not gone back to that place ever since.

Sorry to hear about all the problems...hope it works out for you.

[Dclassen]

I got it back today, went in to see what the hell the guys in the shop were doing and guy said he put oil in and adjusted the valves. He told me just to take it and see how it runs, and suggested the engine would need to be completely resealed. It seems to be running more soundly but now the ****ing thing is now burning something or other. Could smell something burning on the way home and popped the hood and saw smoke coming off the engine. It's also now making another weird ass noise when I threw it in reverse and when I turned the wheel fully to the side to flip a U turn its squealing like no other. I don't even want to drive it at this point but they guy didn't charge me a dime. Pretty upset about how things are going and not sure if its even worth trying to fix it at this point. I already spent 1200 on the A/C system, don't have another 1500-2000 to throw into an engine rebuild then still have plenty more work I need to do in top of it.

[patdaly]

Originally Posted by Dclassen

I got it back today, went in to see what the hell the guys in the shop were doing and guy said he put oil in and adjusted the valves. He told me just to take it and see how it runs, and suggested the engine would need to be completely resealed. It seems to be running more soundly but now the ****ing thing is now burning something or other. Could smell something burning on the way home and popped the hood and saw smoke coming off the engine. It's also now making another weird ass noise when I threw it in reverse and when I turned the wheel fully to the side to flip a U turn its squealing like no other. I don't even want to drive it at this point but they guy didn't charge me a dime. Pretty upset about how things are going and not sure if its even worth trying to fix it at this point. I already spent 1200 on the A/C system, don't have another 1500-2000 to throw into an engine rebuild then still have plenty more work I need to do in top of it.

Whoa, hang on for a second. The burning oil you smell is probably what oil got away from them while they were adjusting the valves, the key is to look for an oil leak and let it come fully to temperature to burn off that oil. What you want is for it to not continue to smoke......... The squealing could be as simple as some oil got on the PS belt, does it squeal just going down the road?

I know you are upset, but take a deep breath and attack one issue at a time.

Does the engine still have good oil pressure?

[Dclassen]

Originally Posted by patdaly

Whoa, hang on for a second. The burning oil you smell is probably what oil got away from them while they were adjusting the valves, the key is to look for an oil leak and let it come fully to temperature to burn off that oil. What you want is for it to not continue to smoke......... The squealing could be as simple as some oil got on the PS belt, does it squeal just going down the road?

I know you are upset, but take a deep breath and attack one issue at a time.

Does the engine still have good oil pressure?

I'm not sure about the oil pressure, didn't look. It has dumped a bunch of oil since I parked it though. It doesn't squeal going down the road no, but I am concerned that whatever they did just made things worse. It never leaked like that before. I'm not too worried about the squealing but I am worried that its dumping oil and that I might cause damage driving it around. But then again, I dont know anything about cars really. I appreciate all the responses as I have no idea what to do.

[70-K5]

My $0.02 again...

They didn't replace the valve cover seals after adjusting the valves, and like patdaly said there was probably a little oil dropped on the exhaust manifold.
You can adjust valves with the engine off but the most effective way is to do it while the engine is running. This means the oil is being pumped into the rockers and basically going everywhere.

patdaly is right about the squealing too. Really you shouldn't ever turn and hold the steering wheel all the way against the lock. Do that to any vehicle older than 1999 and you will hear the pump stress, older v-belt pulleys will squeal, there is nothing absolutely wrong at that point, just telling you to either change or tighten the belt.

In order to "reseal" the motor there are only a couple of seals... Crank, valve covers, intake, oil pan, exhaust and heads. The crank seals are somewhat the same thing as oil pan seals, valve cover seals are as easy as changing a light bulb. Your problems don't sound like intake problems and if your heads were leaking you'd have white smoke coming out of your tail pipes and you'd be losing coolant.

You need to find out WHERE THE OIL IS LEAKING FROM. Clean the engine best you can. Start at the top, then work your way down. Eventually you will find where the oil is coming from. And always watch your oil pressure gauge, especially when you're having issues, that's a common sense thing.

[David623]

Go with a crate motor, I am putting a 1999 5.3 Vortex motor in my truck , but the extra expense adapters for the transmission and motor mounts add a lot of cost to the project so if it was to do over again I would just get a crate motor and be done with it.

[patdaly]

Ok, now my first thought is they didn't either replace the valve cover gaskets, they had one slip while installing it, or they did not make sure the bolt tabs were replaced.

Chevy engines use pretty thin steel valve covers, so to spread out the forces of the retaining bolts ( only 4 for that cover ), they had thicker tabbed washers, been a lot of years since I played with one, but it seems like they were about an inch or an inch and a half long, with the hole offset up so that the main part of the washer would bear on the lip of the cover. You also have to be VERY vigilant about not tightening them up too much, you can easily cut a new gasket and cause a mess.

Hate to say it, but you really need to find perhaps a board member close to you and have them take a look at it.

Something else that might do you good is to see if you have a local community college that offers beginning classes in auto maintenance. You don't have to go full bore into auto tech, but even basic classes would help you out immensely, and things like this might not freak you out as much.

For right now, I would look the engine over closely, and see if you can find where the worst has leaked, and then use a can of brake parts cleaner spray to clean that area, let it dry, and have someone start it while you are watching the engine, I would almost bet you find it leaking at the bottom of the valve cover/top of the cylinder head.

[Dclassen]

Originally Posted by patdaly

Ok, now my first thought is they didn't either replace the valve cover gaskets, they had one slip while installing it, or they did not make sure the bolt tabs were replaced.

Chevy engines use pretty thin steel valve covers, so to spread out the forces of the retaining bolts ( only 4 for that cover ), they had thicker tabbed washers, been a lot of years since I played with one, but it seems like they were about an inch or an inch and a half long, with the hole offset up so that the main part of the washer would bear on the lip of the cover. You also have to be VERY vigilant about not tightening them up too much, you can easily cut a new gasket and cause a mess.

Hate to say it, but you really need to find perhaps a board member close to you and have them take a look at it.

Something else that might do you good is to see if you have a local community college that offers beginning classes in auto maintenance. You don't have to go full bore into auto tech, but even basic classes would help you out immensely, and things like this might not freak you out as much.

For right now, I would look the engine over closely, and see if you can find where the worst has leaked, and then use a can of brake parts cleaner spray to clean that area, let it dry, and have someone start it while you are watching the engine, I would almost bet you find it leaking at the bottom of the valve cover/top of the cylinder head.

Yes I was thinking the same thing. And I believe you guys are right on it seems to have a small leak in that area I can see the oil and thats where it was smoking from (not alot mind you just seemed to be a very small amount of oil burning off.) For now I just want to make sure they oil levels are correct and maybe take it out again and see how things go. Problem is, I cant seem to locate where I would check the oil level. I looked a few times yesterday and gave up. lol. As for classes you're probably right on and I had considered it before. WHERE IS THE OIL DIPSTICK? As for sealing things up myself that is out of my realm of comfort for the time being. It has always leaked, same things were mentioned when I brought it to them several months ago. I think just now that I have been driving it quite a bit its brought out some of these problems that probably should have been dealt with before.

[70-K5]

I wonder if they forgot to put the dipstick back in...

Should be pretty easy to spot, it is on either side of the engine, I believe stock is driver side.

[patdaly]

Originally Posted by Dclassen

WHERE IS THE OIL DIPSTICK?

If you have the original engine ( or at least a pre-1980 replacement ), your dipstick will be on the Drivers side, about middle of the engine. The tube will be pushed into the block at a small kick out boss where the oil pan meets the block. This tube is pressed into the hole and will come up to about valve cover height and will have the dipstick. If your engine has been replaced with a 1980 or newer vintage, it will look the same, but be on the passenger side.

Now if you don't see anything like that from above, it raises the interesting proposition that just perhaps your tube has broken off, and that would indeed dump a ton of oil out in a hurry.

Take a look and let us know what you see, perhaps snap a picture of the oil pan/block interface on both sides and post them?