Engine swap, hei & alternator wiring question

[nail pounder]

I'm knee deep swapping the 235 out for a 350 in my 58 Apache and I have a couple questions. I did a search and have read up on it and I think I have my head wrapped around it, but thought I'd ask. From what I've read, the HEI wants 12v continually, so I need to bypass/remove my ballast resistor and get 12v to crank and run position on ignition? I found the wiring diagram below on a couple threads for the alternator conversion and want to verify that it's correct. I'm concerned about the amp meter having too much juice running through it, maybe I've read too many threads and could be over thinking things a bit. To be honest I'm not concerned about it being functional at all, I'm more worried about burning the truck down and possibly my house in the process let me know if this swap is really as simple as the diagram below. Thanks in advance for your help!

[mr48chev]

Someone posted this diagram a while back and it is a good one and easy to follow.
http://s173.photobucket.com/user/mr4...tml?sort=4&o=0

I've used this setup on several alternator swaps but you do need to come up with a diode in the line but could use a light in place of the diode.


I think I used a diagram similar to what you show way back in the mid 70's when I pulled the 283 out of my T bucket and stuck it in the 48. A couple of magazines had articles on swapping over to alternators in the early 70's or maybe in the 60's too.

[mr48chev]

On the HEI I'd run at least a ten gauge wire from the switch to the HEI and use the proper HEI clip on the end of it. Here is a link to the pigtails kit that O'Reilly's sells for HeI http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...2770&ppt=C0334

From experience a female slide connector will work but almost always seems to come loose at the most inopportune times. On my 71 it would manage to come loose in rain storms on the way to work at 03:30 in the morning. Not worth the hassle of having the engine die to try and save a couple of bucks by not using the correct end.


r

[nail pounder]

Ok cool. I had seen that pic before but I still don't know what to do with the connections at the old volt reg

[Coupeguy2001]

What I did was to get a terminal stud mounted on a plastic bracket out of an 89 corvette and mount it next to the battery over by the hood hinge on the right side. I ran a battery lead from the battery to that, then inside to the fuse box.
As for the alternator, If I was you I would use a one wire alternator.
But if you don't, probably would not be a good idea to use the voltage regulator wires.
You can buy a alternator plug, remove the wires from it and crimp on new terminals and add the wires you want to run, and terminate them where you want.
It's the plastic piece that you need.

On the ammeter, it is calibrated for 30 amps.
Do not use it to run amperage for anything other than what came stock on your truck.
lights, stop lights, turn signals, wipers, dash lights, radio, heater motor,
That's it.
Here's what I did.
I ran the alternator power wire to the starter solenoid battery lead. That way, you get good clean power.

I ran the things I mentioned through the ammeter and then a wire to the ignition switch.
Out of the ignition switch, I ran that power to two 30 amp relays from that terminal stud I mentioned previously.
The ignition switch only runs the coils for the relays, .12 amps each.
then the fuse box has the two relays powering it to about 60 amps.

Here's the deal, If you run the power wire for the alternator directly to the starter/battery lead, the things on the ammeter will cause the ammeter to read negative all the time except when the ignition switch is turned off. The reason is that the generator is not putting any positive amps back in, so it reads negative.
Soooo I switched the wires on the ammeter right to left, and now everything I turn on makes the ammeter read in the plus range. I know it is only indicative of the load, so it looks right when I drive it.

If you need more current, either get a bigger relay, or add another power relay.
If you use three relays, you can use one for powering lights, one for radio, heater motor, etc.
Use the last one for engine stuff, ignition, gauges, tach, etc.
Then I added relays for various things......
Cooling fan
electric fuel pump
electric overdrive solenoid
air conditioning compressor,
radio, amplifier, equalizer, etc.
all come from the terminal stud, but the coils are powered through switches through the ignition switch. 10 relay coils = 1.2 amps. hardly a load at all.

I would take out the field and current wires out of the harness, and use the battery wire for something useful, like power for a volt meter through the ignition switch or another relay.

[nail pounder]

That was alot of good info, unfortunately I'm an electrical dummy. I do have a volt meter though. No fuse box on this old beast, just whatever is at the light switch. I have no radio, heater is not operating (yet) and it has vacuum wipers. All it really has is lights/signals, & I will want to wire up a manual OD switch for the 700r4. This may all change in the future but for now I just want to get it up and running. Ill need to do some reading up on the relays. I was hoping for an easier answer

[nail pounder]

Oh wait, is this the easy answer and I just got lost?

"Here's the deal, If you run the power wire for the alternator directly to the starter/battery lead, the things on the ammeter will cause the ammeter to read negative all the time except when the ignition switch is turned off. The reason is that the generator is not putting any positive amps back in, so it reads negative."

[dsraven]

you can get one of those alternator plugs and rewire the thing properly and that way you know you have good, properly guaged wires for each circuit, if you don't have a "charge" or "battery" bulb in the dash it is easy to install one. then run the small guage wire, that would normally have the diode in it, to the charge bulb in the dash so you have an "idiot light" on the dash to let you know if the alt has stopped working.I know, everybody wants a guage not an idiot light, but the idiot lights have saved many guys over the years. lets say the fan belt breaks while you are out with a buddy in the truck yakking at you (conversation). you are not monitoring the guages because you are driving and talking. the fan belt is also the alt belt so the idiot light comes on right away when the belt breaks to alert you of trouble. you see the light and pull over to check it out. if no idiot light you don't know until you see steam coming out from under the hood.big problem. really, who is eyeballing the guages every few minutes for issues. more fun driving and looking around at the "scenery" right? the amp guage can still be used to monitor load.

on the HEI issue, they need a large guage wire, like 10 ga, for power. sure, you could run a 10ga wire from the ign switch but what ga wire is supplying the ignition switch in order to give enough current for the new 10ga wire to the HEI? how much current, total, is the ign switch rated for and how much is already spoken for with loads like heater etc? you are better off to do like said previously. run a nice new 10ga wire from a fused source to a relay under hood, then from there to the HEI. then switch the relay on or off with a signal wire from the ign switch. the signal wire is already in place since it was previously supplying power to the ign coil through a ballast resistor.

make sense?

[_Ogre]

i believe the diagram you have in the first post is for an externally regulated alternator not a generator
your generator regulator has 3 connections: batt, gen and field, only the gen and field wires go to the generator



i agree with most of what coupeguy says, a small alternator puts out 65 amps, the stock amp gauge is rated at 30 amps
when installing an alternator i use to just wire batt+ into the top batt connection on the old regulator: until i burned up my panel truck harness

assuming you have a gm delco 10SI alternator:
if you just want to get it running disconnect the 2 bottom wires on the regulator
run a new 10ga wire from the alt+ to the battery+ or starter
on the alternator wire batt to S2, no wire to S1. the alternator will still self excite

further down the road...
remove the old regulator just insulate top wire
replace the internal regulator in the 10SI with a $10 1-wire regulator
read my build thread on how to convert the amp gauge into a volt meter

[_Ogre]

as for 12v+ to the hei, if your using a 80s gm distributor try to run off the top wire into the ballast resistor
that has worked previously for me

as for running a #10 wire from the ignition switch? not that much power at the switch
if you need more amperage use a relay powered from the battery

as you've probably noticed there is no fuse panel in your truck: vac wipers and factory option heater didn't require much fusin'
all your current overload protection is built into the headlight switch, the only fuse is the cluster lights on top of the headlight switch

[Coupeguy2001]

700R4 needs a few things to work without a computer.
1. you need the switch kit to install inside.
2. you need the special throttle cable to hook to throttle linkage.
3. If you get a 700R4, be sure the one you buy is 87 and later. It has an accumulator to keep from jerking in gear from neutral or park.
If you get it installed, use a corvete servo and a new pin. You can get firmer shifts and a longer pin will hold the band it contacts just a little tighter.

58 and 59 have a fuse panel screwed to the inside of the firewall above the brake handle above the clutch pedal.
I would recommend getting one and wiring it in.
Otherwise, go to a junk yard, and get a fuse panel from a 60's GM car or truck. It is easily adaptable if you get the wiring harness with it, and it hasn't been molested.

[Coupeguy2001]

Sorry if I threw you too much info.

the battery + goes to the big lug on the starter solenoid.
make a 4 or 6 gauge big lead, and run it to the alternator big lead.

you can't burn up any wire doing that.

next, you should use a one wire alternator. because the big lead is all you run to take care of the charging and running your accessories.
relays are used to power high amperage accessories like fan, fuel pump, etc.

Relays have usually four lugs. two large ones, and two small ones.
A relay is like a remote switch. it is turned on and off with a dash switch wired to the small lugs.

If you are going to add things to your truck in the future that are going to use more than 7 amps of current, relays are great.

say you want to put in an electric fan.

the fan will have two wires. a positive, and a ground. You select a good ground, and bolt the ground wire to that ground place on the frame.
then you put a relay in a good place somewhere under the hood, away from hood hinges, throttle linkage, etc.
then you run the fan + wire to one of the relay's large lugs. The other large lug goes to a power terminal strip that you add that is battery +.
The wires should be 10 or 12 gauge. (relatively large)
then the ignition switch will have a lug labelled acc. That wire will go to another terminal strip that you add. That wire can be 10-12 gauge. (relatively large)
the ign. switch will power that terminal strip from the acc lug on the ign sw. it gets mounted somewhere under the dash.
one of the little lugs on the relay will go to ground. then the other wire wil go to a switch for the fan, then to that acc terminal strip.


So, what you end up with is:
a fan that gets power from the battery through the relay,
and the relay will get turned on through the fan switch.
The fan switch will get power from the ignition switch acc terminal.
The battery will get power from the alternator.

Why do we do all of this?

the single most important factor. safety.

the relay and large wire can handle the loads without getting warm. Over time, wires that are too small will suffer heat treating, and get brittle. the insulation will get hard and brittle, then eventually crack and break, exposing the already stressed wire.

[nail pounder]

Ok, I think I'm getting the basics, I appreciate all the input. I will need to learn more about the relays and how to be more efficient with my wiring. Had a long day today and no time to mess with it. I'll have a look after work tomorrow, snap some pics of my plan and see if you all agree that I'm not a total fire hazard. Thanks again for the explanations.

[1project2many]

I see a lot of people recommending the one wire alternators. Funny how we will spend a ton of time selecting exactly the right brakes, springs, wheels, tires, engine, and nearly every other part in our truck yet select an alternator based on ease of installation.

The single wire SI series alternator is essentially a three wire alternator with the voltage sense connection tied to the battery terminal of the alternator. You can build a version of this by using an automotive alternator and the picture posted by mr48chev as a reference. This configuration relies on some residual magnetism in the alternator to generate enough voltage to trigger the regulator circuitry. The SI alternator contains no magnets so any magnetism present in the iron stator core and in the armature is there by accident, so to speak, as a result of current flowing when the alternator was connected correctly. The alternator has to be spun fairly fast before this small amount of magnetism will generate enough voltage to trigger the alternator and for some configurations the engine needs to spin pretty high before the alternator starts charging. It is very possible to start the engine on a system like this and let it idle and have no charging whatsoever. I've seen cases where it takes about 2700 rpm for the "self-exciting" alternator to start charging. These alternator configurations typically have a point when the lights suddenly "wake up" the first time you start driving after starting the engine and it's very noticeable. Add an electronic fan, some fairly bright lights, or other loads and it is possible to run a battery fairly low in short order by starting it, letting idle, and walking away.

There are additional considerations including voltage sensing (a very important feature imo) and for those interested there is much more here:
http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...hreewire.shtml

[dsraven]

hey, great article 1project. thanks for digging that up and posting it.
I was just talking to a guy the other day about the same topic. he was caught up in the threads on forums about the single wire alternator trend. I mentioned to him some of the same things that the link you posted talks about. i am old school I guess but i am not a single wire alt fan. it seems like guys will spend literally thousands of dollars on engine, tranmission, suspension set ups, wheels, tires, stereos etc, but will cheap out on the stuff that really matters. the underpinnings of the unit. I have seen guys spend money on a mustangII front end. they gotta have air ride and they gotta have special control arms and all the this's and that's and the other things. but, do they upgrade the brakes to stop that 600hp engine with the huge tires? nope, no money for that or they won't be able to afford the tires and wheels and the this's and that's.
anyway, I digress. if it were me i would get the alternator that has an idiot light and is energized when the key is turned on. I would rewire the truck properly so I know there isn't some mouse chewed spot somewhere waiting to short out at the worst time. like the link says, sometimes the engine has to be spun upwards of 2500 rpm before the single wire alt kicks in.

[Coupeguy2001]

I recommended the one wire alternator because our friend is electrically challenged.
I ran a one wire alternator for more than 10 years and 80,000 miles, and tore it apart for new bearings and brushes.
It is still pumping out the amps.
it pops right on at about 700 RPM.

[58CameoAZ]

Coupeguy2001, you say that the fuse panel was on the 58&59, both my 58 & 59 Trucks
did not have the fuse panels on them. they both had six cylinder's in them and wondering
if you would of gotten one if they were V8 trucks?
i was given one from my brother In-law who sold 47-59 truck parts back in the day
out of Nevada.
Allen

[_Ogre]

in my experience; the only tf trucks that had fuse panels were factory equipped with electric wipers
otherwise the radio and heater (both factory or dealer options) had inline fuses
so many tf trucks have heaters that most people do not realize they were optional


on 1-wire converted alternators; i recommend them because that's all i've used on any classic vehicle for 40 years
they work fine and do their job of charging the battery rather well, i have one on my 58 truk
my experience is that a 3 wire 10si will self excite at a little more than idle rpm if not idle rpm
58 truk is the only vehicle i've run with a true 1-wire 10si alternator, all others were 1 wire conversions

[dsraven]

my 58 chevy had an electric wiper and a fuse panel. I am soooo deluxe, haha.
my 57 gmc (or possibly the 58 chev, can't remember) has a heater with a cold air intake from a square hole above the factory vent. anybody seen this before?

[Coupeguy2001]

1. I bought a firewall from a wrecked 58 for the dashboard. It had the deluxe heater and electric wipers. That's where I got the fuse panel from.
2. The deluxe heater had a fresh air intake hole that gets a blank off plate if the cheap heater or no heater is installed.
3. I have the pieces from the 58 that made me conclude that the newer four headlight trucks were given a better electrical system.
4. The firewall I got was from a government vehicle. I did not conclude whether it was a state or federal vehicle. It had a riveted "for official use only" plate riveted to the dash.
5. The 58 had some interesting options:
Deluxe heater
windshield washers
electric wipers
turn signals
radio
transisterized ignition box on a bracket under the dash
V8 ignition switch
blank off plate where the clutch pedal hole should have been

[1project2many]

I recommended the one wire alternator because our friend is electrically challenged.
I ran a one wire alternator for more than 10 years and 80,000 miles, and tore it apart for new bearings and brushes.

on 1-wire converted alternators; i recommend them because that's all i've used on any classic vehicle for 40 years

I get that. I used to do the lazy man's one-wire by connecting the sense wire to the output terminal and leaving the other off. If a person understands the potential shortcomings then they shouldn't have problems. But it turns out I have had a few issues over the years so now I opt for complete connection. I suppose the link is there for people who'd like to consider pros and cons.

transisterized ignition box on a bracket under the dash

Interesting. Did you buy the truck directly from the government? Pictures of the module?

Also, a fuse panel was available as a dealer installed option for the tri-five trucks. I wouldn't expect it to be very popular, but it was there.

[_Ogre]

pretty fancy smancy truck for a government vehicle, i've had a few that were very basic
i'd be interested in a pic of the ''transisterized ignition box''

we're stretching the truth a little by calling the little board with 4 fuse holders a fuse panel

[58CameoAZ]

we're stretching the truth a little by calling the little board with 4 fuse holders a fuse panel
__________________

Very True! LOL.... To Funny Ogre lol.....

Allen

[Russell Ashley]

I said that I would never comment on this alternator issue again, but here I go breaking my own rule. I have a 10SI three wire alternator on my truck. It was a rebuilt one from Auto Zone, specified for a 1980 Camaro with V8 engine, automatic, and a/c. I think it is a 68 amp if my memory is correct. I have 12V connected to terminal 2 on the alternator. My truck sits for long periods of time between being driven, two months the last time, and the alternator self excited immediately, as it always has. This makes me think that the diode or the light connected to terminal one is not absolutely necessary.

[1project2many]

we're stretching the truth a little by calling the little board with 4 fuse holders a fuse panel

http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com...cpctai058.html

This makes me think that the diode or the light connected to terminal one is not absolutely necessary.

It's not. That's how the "one wire" alternator works. The connection between terminal two and BAT is internal, there is no connection to terminal 1, and residual magnetism in the alternator will almost always cause the system to start charging at some unspecified rpm. A classic, textbook symptom for failed warning light or voltage gauge with the SI alternator used to be a complaint of "lights stay dim until I rev the engine, then they're fine." Terminal two actually shows positive voltage once the alternator is charging and with some aftermarket ignition systems or with systems that connect the ignition module to battery through a relay, that voltage is enough to keep the ignition operating and the engine running after the key is shut off. That's why many online diagrams for alternator conversion include a diode. It's not effective as a voltage reduction device. It's to ensure the alternator doesn't keep the ignition energized.

Anyway, I'm not looking to derail this thread for the OP. I used to do the lazy man's alternator swaps also and had many successes. But I ran into trouble a couple of times and have helped diagnose some unusual problems related to "one wire" (alternators and I just wanted to make sure that more information was available for folks who might want to evaluate pros and cons. I'm prolly gonna use your rule and stay out of one wire alternator discussions unless someone has specific questions about how it works.