What Do You Think?

[special-K]

I haven't heard anyone talking about this, or seen anything here, and just wonder what you all think. I'm glad to see it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...u0rOksZ8ASfsQw

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...iDOr6GlQ7f7CKA

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...DE4eQYvqH88g4w

[Jim Timber]

I don't know that the duramax has anything to offer over a VT365 or DT466, so I don't know why you'd buy the Chevy vs the Navistar. I sure as hell wouldn't buy a new gasser in this size, but they might have something to throw at Ford for the rental market (uhaul, etc).

ETA: Just read the second article and see that Nav hasn't got a chassis out there in this class anymore. It's been 15 years since I dealt with trucks in this segment, so I'm apparently way out of date.

[63 & 64 Bowties]

Originally Posted by Jim Timber

I don't know that the duramax has anything to offer over a VT365 or DT466, so I don't know why you'd buy the Chevy vs the Navistar.

That was exactly my thought also. Maybe they'll build both the GM and International trucks there. But, I'm guessing not since the IH would probably outsell the GM's.

[C10 - C90 Bill]

Well, I'm really up to date, lol. I didn't even know that they quit building Mediums back in '09.

In my opinion, GM's biggest mistake was when they sold their Large Truck division to White back in '88.
Well, I guess a partnered deal building trucks is better than nothing, but time will tell how much they are liked and how good they will sell.

[Jim Timber]

The chassis being built with GM components sounds good, I'd just much rather have a proven IH power plant than a duramax. I'm guessing they'll be putting Allison 6spd's in them, and that'd be cool.

I still can't believe they sold Allison in 2007. Why would you get rid of a cash cow when you need money? Keep milking it.

[C10 - C90 Bill]

Originally Posted by Jim Timber

I still can't believe they sold Allison in 2007.

I didn't know that either, lol.

Of course that doesn't bother me much though.

(I need a Clutch and a Shifter, lol).

[63 & 64 Bowties]

Yea, and Detroit Diesel was GM. Now it's Mopar. Go figure.

[C10 - C90 Bill]

Boy, what happened to the good 'ol days.

[special-K]

Yeah, most of this stuff was news to me. It's hard to keep up with. I kinda lost interest when all this buyin' mergin' sellin' stuff started. I only pay attention to old stuff.

[GM72K10]

Originally Posted by special-K

I haven't heard anyone talking about this, or seen anything here, and just wonder what you all think. I'm glad to see it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...u0rOksZ8ASfsQw

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...iDOr6GlQ7f7CKA

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...DE4eQYvqH88g4w

Glad to see it too.

[factorystock]

My take on the situation is, both these companies are hurting and have been hurting for a while, they both need something to increase their market share. Navistar used to be number #1 in medium sales, but sales have been slipping. On the West Coast buyers are turning to Freightliner's and Hino's in a big way. Medium Chevy trucks have not been contenders in the market place for years.

[flashed]

Im glad to see GM getting back in the game and hope they are successful but only time will tell.

[C10 - C90 Bill]

In a somewhat related issue, the Volvo plant in Dublin, VA just announced today that they are laying off about 700 workers. It seems like the main reason, which is of course obvious, is lagging sales.

Here is a link to it:

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/new-...icial/36737894

[BR3W CITY]

FWIW in some cases its not GM OR IH thats building the engines for many of these. There are big block based turbo motors being used for buses and other medium duty Navistar products (I think blue bird or one of the other larger bus mfg uses them as well.

They are based on the FI 8.1's and designed to replace certain applications where a diesel would traditionally be more popular.

And yes, they get the allison 5000.

[Jim Timber]

I hauled a 9500# trailer behind a completely empty 17' box van E450 with the turbo V10 and got an average of 4.8mpg over 410 miles at freeway speed. There's no way on God's green earth I would buy a (new) medium duty truck with a gas engine unless it was dirt cheap.

I'm not all that thrilled my C65 won't do any better and likely won't make 65mph like the ford did. For it's limited use in my arsenal, there's no point in retrofitting a diesel into that chassis. If I was serious about putting annual miles on a dump truck, I'd get a late model binder or Volvo day cab, get happy with the frame extension, and call it a day.

[63 & 64 Bowties]

Originally Posted by Jim Timber

I hauled a 9500# trailer behind a completely empty 17' box van E450 with the turbo V10 and got an average of 4.8mpg over 410 miles at freeway speed. There's no way on God's green earth I would buy a (new) medium duty truck with a gas engine unless it was dirt cheap.

I used to think the same way. But a good friend of mine owns a roofing company with 8 to 10 company trucks. He had all Fords with diesels. He began switching over to v10's. I asked him why and he showed me the calculations he had done. Initial cost of a diesel upgrade on a new truck, higher price of diesel fuel over gas. Even resale value. I don't remember the figures, but I think it was at least 10 years at average mileage that you'd have to keep the truck just to break even on the initial diesel upgrade on a new truck.
I agree with you, I wouldn't have a medium duty with a gas burner, but if you're just looking at economics like he was, the gas burner made sense.

[junkmandan3]

I've seen the various Chev/ IH announcements in the trade magazines. When I first saw the 4500 and 5500 chassis at the Louisville Truck show about 5-6 years ago, it looked like 10 lbs of Dung in a 5 lb bag, so hopefully IH will produce a more servicable chassis .

[Jim Timber]

With gas hovering around .30-.50 cheaper per gallon than diesel, the economy is lost on the added expense in acquisition. That's very true. Resale isn't likely an issue either, since he's just depreciating it off and anything he sells them for will be taxed at 25% again anyway so it's almost better to use it up and dump it from a financials standpoint in a business.

I don't buy vehicles for business consumption, I buy them for my own long term needs. So the added expense up front, and the lower cost of ownership over the life of the truck, plus the higher resale value all combine to make me want diesel over gas. Unless it's cheap! Cheap goes a long way sometimes. Spoken as someone who's had the same truck for the last 95K on a 268K mile Tahoe. When I bought it, it was cheap. Even with the ongoing repair costs having worn out another set of front end bearings and joints, it's still cheaper than a newer one.

[Bob B.]

Originally Posted by 63 & 64 Bowties

Yea, and Detroit Diesel was GM. Now it's Mopar. Go figure.

No it's not! Detroit is part of Daimler Trucks North America, as in Freightliner. Chrysler was sold off many years ago, and now is owned by Fiat.

[Bob B.]

Anyway, let's say I am kind of 'in the business', and I will give you my take on this, FWIW:

First off, GM had a really great truck in the 2003-2009 Topkick and Kodiak. Problem was the trucks were overbuilt and not too profitable, though they sold well. So, come bankruptcy, the big trucks had to go. GM didn't really want to leave the market, but they have to make a profit. So, now we have this deal with Navistar. GM and Navistar will jointly develop a new line of medium duty trucks, and they will be built as a Chevy (no GMC version this time) and an International version. They trucks will be different, but will be built in the same plant and share frames and suspensions. The Chevy version will have a GM drivetrain (very likely Duramax and Vortec gasoline), no word yet on what engines the International version will use.

This is a good thing. It gets GM back in the medium duty business but saves them a lot of money teaming up with Navistar. The truck will be very much a Chevy, though it will be built in Navistar's Springfield Illinois plant.

Tell you something else- it will be good for Chevy and International to have gasoline versions. Diesels are getting to be too expensive for a lot of fleets, particularly those that don't put a lot of miles on their trucks. Gasoline engines are also easy to convent to CNG and propane too. Not saying diesels are going away, but there is a trend developing.

[Jim Timber]

If I was running short haul/local on a fleet, I'd be very interested in CNG!

It's actually crossed my mind to attempt it on my C65's 366.

[63 & 64 Bowties]

Originally Posted by Bob B.

No it's not! Detroit is part of Daimler Trucks North America, as in Freightliner. Chrysler was sold off many years ago, and now is owned by Fiat.

Haha, yup. You're right. I forgot about the Fiat thing. I guess we need scorecards.

[Jim Timber]

Originally Posted by 63 & 64 Bowties

Haha, yup. You're right. I forgot about the Fiat thing. I guess we need scorecards.

Magnetic board would save a lot of scribbling/erasing.

Daimler was wise to dump Chrysler when the tax incentives ran out. I had high hopes with that acquisition given the amount of money taxpayers dumped into that company prior to the kraut's buying it. They have modern facilities and the dumbest engineers in the business from what I can tell. I hoped the germans would rework the engineering and QC side of things and make dodge a good buy - didn't happen.

A buddy bought a new 2014 Ram 1500 with 6 miles on it at delivery and the dash was rattling before his first oil change.

We looked at the 2015 Chevy's and Fords at the fair this year, and after sticker shock from both lines wore off, both the Mrs. and I thought Fords had a nicer interior. It won't matter much when the body rusts off from galvanic corrosion like their last attempts at aluminum, but it's a nicer truck off the assembly line from a purely subjective POV.


Back to the medium duty's... From '97 to late '99, I worked in fleet vehicle breakdown management for GE Capital's TruckVantage, and my primary customer was a fleet of rental straight trucks which included the IH 4700, Topkick 5500, and Ford F700 IIRC (not positive on the ford's chassis line on those trucks as I haven't given them a single thought in 15 years). The ford trannies were smoked quite often, the bowtie's had weak air conditioning (which often tossed the serp belt and left people stranded), and the binder's were the least trouble of the lot with T444E's and mainly only needed jumps from people leaving lights on or they'd run them out of fuel, and then the even less frequent dumbasses who put gas in them. The TK's were all gas with 8.1's and we'd often get complaints about fuel economy, but even the 1T cube vans we had in that account didn't do well on mileage. We had a staggering increase in trouble calls with the Ford E350's than the C30's in that fleet despite the number of units in service being about equal.

There's a caveat with that experience though; the client was horrible on PM's and the rental consumer is, by and large, the most destructive operator known to man. All of them suffered roughly the same occurrences of roasted brakes in the mountains so that's not overtly memorable in my experience. We didn't see much for mechanical failures until well over 100K, so that's a pretty normal service life on new parts anyway. That tells me these were all pretty durable machines when new, and not a bad buy used for that matter.

I think it's good for both IH and GM to be doing this. They've been successful in the past without being on the same team, so this should produce a hybrid that's a real gem.

[CREWCABGMC]

A couple of Heavy Chevys that are sold in South America. Built by Volvo.

[C10 - C90 Bill]

Sure is funny to see a Bowtie on the front of those trucks.