Wieand 144 SC and March Serpentine setup?

[cgav8tor]

Hey,
Installing a WND 144 long nose SC on a '74 short water pump 350 block. I went with the long neck due to ample space/options and I want to continue the scenario with a March serpentine system & brackets (Alt & PS accy's). Unfortunately I came to a screeching stop: The March system came with a solid "blower dampener pulley" (@ 1" thick machined aluminum) vice a standard bowl shaped pulley and the SC came with a 3" solid aluminum spacer with expectations (my guess) of using a bowl shaped 2 or 3 V-belt pully. Obviously the stack off the crank will be too long to match up with the upper blower pulley. Using the amount of experience out there, is it necessary to use the dampener pulley on a serpentine setup with a blower? If I do, I need to get the solid spacer machined down the thickness of the dampener pulley. Or is there a 6-ribbed, 7" bowl shaped pulley out there I can use?

[djracer]

I can't help with the blower stuff but welcome to the board!

[RatPwrd72]

I would get in touch with Weiand's tech support and see what they allow. Surely you're not the only one with that setup....

BTW, let us know how the blower works, I've always wanted a 177 for my 468 in the '72....

[cgav8tor]

Great, I replied once but i must've timed out. Ok shorter/funnier:

-yes, I planned/called all manufacturers today/Monday (it was a Sunday when I posted and couldn't do anything else!)
-The March serpentine system (call Doug) was mounted today and is awesome/beautiful. The solid blower pulley is required due to flat surface.
-I dropped off a stack of steel dampener/2x v-rib steel pulley/3" blower spacer/blower pulley and the March pulley to compare. The spacer machining to accept the new March pulley will cost @ 40 bucks and pickup is Wed AM.
-The Wieand blower intake had holes drilled so close to the rear edge i could push in on the material left. Summit rep (Virginia) called Wieand and a new inspected intake is enroute. Summit is paying for UPS to pick up my current intake. They may be expensive but their service is outstanding.

If interested I'll keep you posted. Hopefully the measurements of the old intake/pulley match the new.
TM

[Alex1]

Did you ever get this thing running?

[cgav8tor]

Alex1, Thanks for the interest. Yes, it's in my "test bed" and running. Pics are attached. After months of putting the "prototype" together (Weiand said the 144 isn't compatible with serpentine systems) and having trouble with 2 different intakes (about to tear apart and install a 3rd from Weiand - they polished/cut to much material off the rear so there is not a good lip/seal on about an inch of the lifter valley wall where the intake sits) it's finally coming together. Haven't run it hard since I'm still playing around with timing and tuning - something I'm not an expert at. Had to buy a spacer (went phenolic for less heat transfer to the carb) for the supposed "bolt on" 4150 double pumper. Well the accel pump mounting bolts butted up against the front case thus the needed spacer. I had to get some machining done on the front pully spacer for the blower and finally found a thermostat housing that after a bit of home made machining got it to fit too. The Be Cool radiator/electric fan assembly, although expensive and the automatic temp sensor failed once, is awesome and keeps the eng easily cooled. The March sepentine system is beautiful but has had some bugs to get worked out too. I have a vacuum advance on the distributer but wonder if I should go all mechanical. Installed the MSD 6a BTM set up to provide hotter/more spark with autolite 135 plugs. They're showing good color for now at idle and easy drive around the block. The BTM portion is supposed to automatically retard while boost increases. Problem is what max timing should I go with knowing it'll retard? Max of 34degrees at 2500rpm or where it sounds good? I have only 7 inches vacuum at idle due to a cam (I think - I can't find any vacuum leaks) that I can't remember the numbers. Still more of the puzzle to figure out but unfortunatly winter is here in Northern NY.

[Alex1]

Looks awesome, great work!

What compression ratio? I would start taking out a lot of timing and slowly add it back in.

[cgav8tor]

Alex1, Thanks, it's fine looking but still all show and no go due to work, kids' stuff, and other priorities (and cold!). I'm sure we all know about that. BTW, disregard the dates. The camera shows one thing but after downloading it came up different.
A little history: I built the engine as a junior military member almost 20 yrs ago (couldn't afford much and little engine knowledge) with the hopes of adding a blower in the future. The guy that helped me build it built engines for the local track. So we kept it "mild." It's a 30 over 350 4-bolt main with flat heads and polished rods. The steel crank was chamfered (oil) and breathing supplied by a Lunati cam that I don't know/remember the specs. Numbers like 280 and 410 stick in my brain but not sure. Bow tie 64cc heads, ported not polished, topped off with 184cc (?) runners. They include 2.02 3-angled valves, rod guides, and Magnum roller rockers pushed hydraulically. Finally, after a long time, several vehicles, and a few miles, I created a budget and looked to a small/fun "sleeper" blower. After some compression checks which were well within tolerance, I pressed ahead. So to answer your question and if I remember correctly, I'm in the 9:1 range. I'm running 93 octane with 104 additive for now for a comfort zone. However, that's still being naive due to unknown true compression/timing and trying to protect the engine. Wasting money? I don't know. I'm still lost re timing. I think I need to pull a valve cover and try to zeroize TDC with a dial indicator and work from there. In the mean time, she sho' sounds good! Gotta love the ZZZZzzzz sound!

[slomotion]

Good looking outfit there! Nice work!

[cgav8tor]

Slomotion (nice "handle"), sorry, been a little busy with work and a little bit of "shore leave". I bet your '68 has a plenty of gitty-up and turns heads! Congrats on the Custom Classic Truck rag issue. I need a copy.

Gents, I have some followup questions:

When I installed an aftermarket timing chain cover and new timing pointer, I wanted to find true TDC. I guesstimated the old TDC (from the timing tab spot-welded on the old cover) using a new pin indicator and came up with these results (using an inserted piston stopper). Rotating CW, the eng stopped at @8 degrees BTDC on my marked Fluid-dampener indicated by the new pointer. Rotating CCW, the eng stopped @12 degrees after TDC. Splitting the difference, I'm assuming my true TDC is @ 2 degrees after the TDC mark on the balancer. Is my logic right?

Second, my eng starts on a dime. Has run in the past (prior blower) without any problems. Still starts/runs on a dime post blower. Question is, when I was assembling the new timing cover, I noticed at #1 TDC, BOTH the cam and crank sprocket timing marks were at 12 o'clock. The short block was originally put together by a company building eng's for a short track. Is this a technique or do I have an issue?

Third, I noticed small white goo pockets at the rear of both heads and a little in the lifter gallery during blower assembly. Prior to the blower install, the eng has been together for @ 12 years and run off and on during the summer months (stored in winter the last 4 years). I'm assuming it's water that's been previously suspended in the oil (humidity) and when seperated due to the oil heating up, settled in various low spots in the engine. Does that logic ring true?

Fourth regards timing. With the 144 blower, what is the experience out there for initial and full timing? My eng idles great with advance in the 20's and all in by 2500RPM/38 degrees but with snow and salt on the road I can't/don't/won't take it out for a run. So I'll crank her for the winter and listen to the ZZzzzs for now.

Lastly, and if you've read this long thanks, I'm using Autolite 135 racing plugs. I've gapped them to .040" and using an MSD 6ABTM ignition. Should I go wider? What's the advantages/disadvantages?

Tmw is Dec 7th. Remember our vets and fly your flag.
Thanks. TM

[phipp13]

i will follow this thread as i have a 144 on my new 383 hav'nt fired it yet. taking the top end back off to put arp studs in the block as i did'nt like the way the bolts torqued down. maybe i'm too anal but then again if it flew apart i'd be kicking myself in the arse. lookin really good though phipp 13

[Super73]

When I installed an aftermarket timing chain cover and new timing pointer, I wanted to find true TDC. I guesstimated the old TDC (from the timing tab spot-welded on the old cover) using a new pin indicator and came up with these results (using an inserted piston stopper). Rotating CW, the eng stopped at @8 degrees BTDC on my marked Fluid-dampener indicated by the new pointer. Rotating CCW, the eng stopped @12 degrees after TDC. Splitting the difference, I'm assuming my true TDC is @ 2 degrees after the TDC mark on the balancer. Is my logic right?


Do you have a dial indacator and stand? I feel using this and setting the indacators tip in the center of the piston is going to give you the most accurate results. There is going to be some inherant piston rock. Motor only turns one way when running, so be sure to spin it the same when looking for TDC.



Second, my eng starts on a dime. Has run in the past (prior blower) without any problems. Still starts/runs on a dime post blower. Question is, when I was assembling the new timing cover, I noticed at #1 TDC, BOTH the cam and crank sprocket timing marks were at 12 o'clock. The short block was originally put together by a company building eng's for a short track. Is this a technique or do I have an issue?

A cam turns half the speed of the crank. Did you try and do one more revolution of the motor? If so they should have lined up Dot to Dot.



Third, I noticed small white goo pockets at the rear of both heads and a little in the lifter gallery during blower assembly. Prior to the blower install, the eng has been together for @ 12 years and run off and on during the summer months (stored in winter the last 4 years). I'm assuming it's water that's been previously suspended in the oil (humidity) and when seperated due to the oil heating up, settled in various low spots in the engine. Does that logic ring true?


I would assume this is some slight moisture. What do you have for evacuation? Breathers on the valve covers?


Fourth regards timing. With the 144 blower, what is the experience out there for initial and full timing? My eng idles great with advance in the 20's and all in by 2500RPM/38 degrees but with snow and salt on the road I can't/don't/won't take it out for a run. So I'll crank her for the winter and listen to the ZZzzzs for now.

Can't help you on this one..



Lastly, and if you've read this long thanks, I'm using Autolite 135 racing plugs. I've gapped them to .040" and using an MSD 6ABTM ignition. Should I go wider? What's the advantages/disadvantages?



Disadvatage to a wide gap is it can blow the spark out under full load. Too small can promote fouling quickly (obviously so can too rich). I think this is something you will need to play with. Start at .040" and go from there.

[Ryan Hubbard]

I have some charts I can send you on timing for your engines based on compression ratio and boost levels for a Chevy 350. I have been running a 350 with a 144 blower for years and have over 30,000 miles on the engine. I am running the same MSD 6btm and I actually leave my time retard set at zero now. I only have to change it when I am towing or get crap gas. But I will try to either post or send you the information.

[cgav8tor]

Thanks Gents! However, I think I have to put her away for the winter. Almost did today but I just started her up and let her run/idle. Couldn't do it just yet!

Phipp13 - good luck and you're right to be perfect on the investment. If I had known more about 383s when I built this eng many moons ago, I would have done the same. I still have to remove/replace my intake too since it's leaking out the rear as described in my earlier thread.

Super73 - Thanks for the insight/replies:
1. Nope, don't have a dial indicator but it might be my next tool/toy to add to the tool box. I used "Billas" guidance in the timing FAQs to get where I'm at on TDC/timing. But there's no way I can get the timing below 20 something degrees (per his guidance) but I believe it's my cam. I did put in new distributer weights and the lightest springs to bring the timing curve in as soon as possible. But I need to take her out for a run to test.
2. Yes, if memory serves, I rotated the eng more times than necessary. I watched the lifters go through their sequence and came back to TDC. Don't know why they are not lined up.
3. Yes, I believe too it's moisture/humidity from the years sitting/running. I have aftermarket breathers which breathe well since I see them venting when running.
4. No worries.
5. That's info I didn't know and helpful.
Thanks again

Ryan - 30K?? Wow!! I'll take any timing info you have or care to share. I still hope there will be a day where the roads are dry and clear of snow that I can take the eng out for a part and full throttle run to see where I'm at.

Again thanks all for the input!

[Ryan Hubbard]

Here is the timing chart I used. This is from the B&M Supercharger manual. It is a great reference that is backed up with dyno data.

[cgav8tor]

Great Ryan! I'll see what interpretations I can make and we'll check it out this spring. Thanks for the time/help!

[Tmiller]

I' running 10 initial with 38 total all in by 2800rpm pulling out 1 degree per lb of boost.
Are you running a blower carb? What size?

[trick68]

Set up looks very good. just got through installing a wieand 142 set up on my 68, been playing with it for alittle while now. Just got the truck tagged, have had alot of rain, so finally a break in the weather, took it out for a spin seemed to do real good, took it easy though motor is just about broke in. like i said your set up looks good have fun with it.

[drag_72]

Tmiller- why you only have 550 horse on a blown 454??

[cgav8tor]

“Hey Ya’ll” (for those country music types),
This is a little long so grab a favorite beverage…
Thanks for those that have read, provided input, and are interested! Here’s an update. Winter broke in upstate NY and I got back on the engine. First problem to come up again FOR THE 3RD TIME was Weiand’s blower intake (NOT a big fan). Again, the rear of the intake was cut / polished too much so that I had about an inch length near the oil pressure fitting where the intake barely touched the rear lifter valley wall (’74 350 4 bolt main). Anybody else have this problem??? Plus, I was having a heck of a time trying to find the proper timing on the motor. So I had it hauled down (by my new best friends at M&M Collision – GREAT people) to Burkart Automotive and some of you may recognize the name from NHRA. Phil Burkart Sr/Jr have a shop close by and I wanted them to see what they could do about the intake and tuning/timing. We came up with a plan and of course nothing went as planned. Three weeks later and twice what I budgeted went into the project. I needed the tuned Hooker Headers out to send to Jet Hot which unfortunately ended up requiring the engine to be pulled. We found out the bellhousing was severely cracked, the transmission mount was broke, and there was no pilot bearing for the clutch (thus the crack?). They welded / polished a ¼” strip of aluminum to the rear of the intake (outstanding job) to provide the overlap needed. The valve seals were indeed leaking (suspected) and the valves were not seating properly so a head job (so to speak) was needed. The headers took an enormous time to complete due to Jet Hot being swamped by spring budding car / motorcycle enthusiasts like myself (their brochure states 72 hrs turnaround). Since I couldn’t remember the specs on the old cam, I ordered from Lunati a supercharger cam and, of course, they were out and a new one had to be ground. More delays. Good thing I had Burkart check it since my old one had some advanced pitting and would have eventually eaten itself to the core. So to this point, you can see labor was more than expected. Regarding the timing / tuning, I was doing everything right but when you have a 20+ yr old distributor and equally as old Accel HEI system that seemed to work fine before, you have trouble. The mechs at Burkarts struggled to time / tune it and after an unhealthy detonation (which I found small piston ring plating/flakes on the 5 & 6 plugs later) they tried a new MSD mechanical distributor that was reserved for another engine. Well, Viola! Things started to come together properly and after 3 weeks in the shop the engine pounds away with @ 500hp when boost is applied. I have Dart 2 heads with 64 cc chambers and @ 9:1 compression. I run 93 octane with 104 additive. The front end scarily jumps up and that’s with one wheel driving. Since only one wheel is driving, I can easily spin 1st, 2nd and bark 3rd with 3:31 gears and an M21 transmission. Good thing I can rotate tires! I use MSD’s BTM ignition control and dialed in a negative 2 degrees advance per pound of boost. My next project is to get a posi put in with maybe 3:55s. Thoughts out there? Don’t care to go to tall. The pics below are similar as above but with the newly coated headers and MSD billet distributor. After starting this project last July and a ton of time and money, it’s time to RUN! Lovin’ the ZZzzzzzzzs!

PS: How ‘bout an old flat head with a supercharger. Maybe not the right forum but the image is cool!

[CoggedBelt75]

Glad to hear things are finally going in the right direction.

[cgav8tor]

Thanks “Cogged”, but of course, I ran into another snag. My Summit 4 in 1 gauge failed. I washed, waxed (not me, the ride!), packed some tools/wiring stuff, fixed a rattle, and was ready to run my first "long distance" run. I cranked the eng and had no indicators. I'm going to post in electrical but I'll start here in the event others use this same gauge. It’s Summit’s 4 inch 4-in-1 gauge with smaller volts, oil, and water gauges arcing across the top. The tach is the main gauge with an rpm light and small adjustable buttons on the bottom. I’ve had some intermittent problems (ratcheting needles) but after the new MSD install, everything leveled out. I’ve had successful short runs and was ready to put some time on the engine. Today the engine started up on a dime as normal but everything was zero and the water gauge climbed until it was pegged. I used a test light and checked the oil and water senders. The test light illuminated and with revs of the eng, the light got brighter as oil pressure rose. With the water, I noticed the light got brighter as the temp came up. The other thing different is the “set” light on the gauge stays illuminated. Normally this is used to set the max RPM for the shift light. For troubleshooting I unhooked/disconnected all the inputs, disconnected/reattached the battery and played with the RPM buttons. I checked the ground. I even wiggled wires to get some kind of response. No joy. Went to a car show yesterday, got excited, and today I remained stuck in the garage. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks. Tim

[54chevy210]

Hey man,
I'm putting a weiand 177 blower on an 88 camaro motor. I'm also running the march serpentine setup. I was wondering if you could give me a little more info on the machining you had done to get the blower pulleys to line up. Did you have the blower pulley or the march pulley cut? Thanks in advance.

[cgav8tor]

I had the thick aluminum spacer piece machined down. The serpentine pulleys are thicker than the stamped chromed v-belt driven pulleys I used earlier. Each application will be different depending on each belt you use (ac, p/s, water, alt). Just stack them up, compare, measure (be carefull with the bowl shaped pulleys) and have the difference machined from the blower spacer. Not too hard. Just compare / measure several times since it's a one shot deal. Good Luck