HO52 issues

[402Bowtie]

So my inexperience may be showing today...

Some may remember that I recently had the wheel bearings fail on the driver-side of my C20 Eaton HO52 rear axle (previous owner installed them many miles ago). I replaced those bearings and decided to replace the bearings, drum brake shoes, brake springs, etc on both sides. I also replaced the axle fluid.

After bleeding the brakes today, I drove around the block twice to test the brakes. Two houses down from my house the truck totally locked up when I started to stop at a stop sign.

To my surprise, the passenger-side drum was roughly half way off the spindle!... As in I could see much of the brake shoes.

I followed this thread, when assembling everything. I also packed my bearings with wheel grease and tilted the axle to the passenger side when filling the axle fluid.

So, still two houses down from my house, I took the RH drum off and noticed the snap ring that holds the outer bearing in place (note 1) was not in its proper place. The outer bearing also had significant wear/grinding marks that I'm sure were from it all coming loose.

The inner bearing and seal appeared to be ok and in their correct positions.

I pulled out as many metal flakes as I could and put the outer bearing and snap ring back in. Put the hub back on, followed by the thrust washer and then torqued the inner locknut to 50-60 ft-lb while rotating the wheel (note 2, 3, and 4). Installed tang washer, bent over an ear into the inner locknut, tightened outer locknut as tight as I could (to try to get to 175 ft-lb), and bent over tang into outer locknut. This allowed me to get the truck back in my driveway.

Note 1: With the hub on the ground, I noticed that with the snap ring in place, it is possible to remove the outer bearing from the hub. Seems odd. Does the snap ring just hold the race in place? Just verifying.

Note 2: When tightening the inner locknut and rotating the wheel (both the first time I installed the hub, and today after the failure) I would hear a popping noise. It didn't sound good, but I have no idea if there is an issue or what it might be.

Note 3: In tightening the inner locknut and rotating the wheel, I noticed metal shavings accumulating around the thrust washer (pictured below). Is this normal? I'm guessing it is metal that is being removed from the thrust washer by the rotating outer bearing (and this is happening just by hand?!)

Note 4: After tightening the inner locknut, it was obvious that the hub was not concentric around the spindle. I only noticed this installing the hub after the failure... Not sure about the first time. How is this possible? Is a race not seated properly?

I'm planning to buy new bearings and redo the passenger side. Perhaps I didn't have the snap ring properly set? I'm a little nervous that the same thing will happen again.

What am I doing wrong and what can I do better?

[bry593]

I'm gonna guess your problem is one of two things:
1. Overtorqued causing bearings to unscrew the double nuts, meaning the lock washer tang to spindle has either sheared or bent out of the way.
2. The inner snap ring popped out of the groove allowing the hub to float axially.

Note 1: With the hub on the ground, I noticed that with the snap ring in place, it is possible to remove the outer bearing from the hub. Seems odd. Does the snap ring just hold the race in place? Just verifying.
Yes, the ring holds the race of the outer taper bearing. If the snap ring is not properly seated, then the whole hub and drum will eventaully work its way off the spindle. After you install the snap ring, you should use a drift thru the axle bolting holes (1/2-13 I think) to drive the race firmly against the snap ring. This removes all slop so that the bearing preload procedure works every time.

Note 2: When tightening the inner locknut and rotating the wheel (both the first time I installed the hub, and today after the failure) I would hear a popping noise. It didn't sound good, but I have no idea if there is an issue or what it might be.
Could be the bearing cage is contacting the snap ring, or maybe there is a cracked race?. Whatever the case, better figure it out before driving and possibly causing major damage.

Note 3: In tightening the inner locknut and rotating the wheel, I noticed metal shavings accumulating around the thrust washer (pictured below). Is this normal? I'm guessing it is metal that is being removed from the thrust washer by the rotating outer bearing (and this is happening just by hand?!)
There should not be any metal shavings. Metal shavings are bad. It means something is scratching or wearing in a very abrasive manner. Most likely it is a portion of the lock washer contacting the hub inner diameter.
Use a screwdriver to make sure these don't touch once final torqued and tabs bent into position.

Note 4: After tightening the inner locknut, it was obvious that the hub was not concentric around the spindle. I only noticed this installing the hub after the failure... Not sure about the first time. How is this possible? Is a race not seated properly?
I'd guess that the snap ring popped out of its groove and let the inner and outer races displace. Being that these are tapered bearings, it would get really sloppy, really fast. In such case, one could easily wiggle the hub on the spindle.

I'm planning to buy new bearings and redo the passenger side. Perhaps I didn't have the snap ring properly set? I'm a little nervous that the same thing will happen again.
I'd take the hub apart before buying bearings. You might also need a snap ring and new lock washer. Make sure the snap ring was properly seated. Inspect your races for cracks and brinelling, cages for distortion and spindle for any damage. Obviously your washer, snap ring and nuts should not be distorted, cracked or excessively worn.

What am I doing wrong and what can I do better?
175 ft*lbs as a final torque is WAYYYYY too much. The initial torque is just to remove clearance at snap ring and races. IT IS NOT THE FINAL TORQUE!!! Leaving it at 175 ft-lb will smoke everything! This is a fine thread with little helical angle. As such, a small torque makes a huge force on the bearing. As mentioned previously, use a drift to remove snap ring to race slop.

I'm sorry, I don't recall the final nut torque. However, there is a HO52/72 overhaul document at the "Old Car Manual Project" on the net. This manual probably dates to the late 40's. It has all kinds of good info you should know if you plan to maintain an HO52.

[402Bowtie]

thanks for the reply bry!

Originally Posted by bry593

I'm gonna guess your problem is one of two things:
1. Overtorqued causing bearings to unscrew the double nuts, meaning the lock washer tang to spindle has either sheared or bent out of the way.
2. The inner snap ring popped out of the groove allowing the hub to float axially.

I did take the hub off yesterday. The lock washer tangs were all in tact and none had sheared. The snap ring was fully liberated and was just floating around in the hub.

Originally Posted by bry593

Note 1: With the hub on the ground, I noticed that with the snap ring in place, it is possible to remove the outer bearing from the hub. Seems odd. Does the snap ring just hold the race in place? Just verifying.
Yes, the ring holds the race of the outer taper bearing. If the snap ring is not properly seated, then the whole hub and drum will eventaully work its way off the spindle. After you install the snap ring, you should use a drift thru the axle bolting holes (1/2-13 I think) to drive the race firmly against the snap ring. This removes all slop so that the bearing preload procedure works every time.

ok, I like that idea...I will give that a try.

Originally Posted by bry593

Note 3: In tightening the inner locknut and rotating the wheel, I noticed metal shavings accumulating around the thrust washer (pictured below). Is this normal? I'm guessing it is metal that is being removed from the thrust washer by the rotating outer bearing (and this is happening just by hand?!)
There should not be any metal shavings. Metal shavings are bad. It means something is scratching or wearing in a very abrasive manner. Most likely it is a portion of the lock washer contacting the hub inner diameter.
Use a screwdriver to make sure these don't touch once final torqued and tabs bent into position.

If I understand correctly, there was definitely no contact with the inner diameter of the hub. Me tightening the inner locknut was generating the metal shavings somehow. From what I could tell it was just the friction between the thrust washer and the bearing. The bearing is hardened steel, so I'm guessing the metal was from the thrust washer....I'll take a closer look at it when I pull it apart.

Originally Posted by bry593

Note 4: After tightening the inner locknut, it was obvious that the hub was not concentric around the spindle. I only noticed this installing the hub after the failure... Not sure about the first time. How is this possible? Is a race not seated properly?
I'd guess that the snap ring popped out of its groove and let the inner and outer races displace. Being that these are tapered bearings, it would get really sloppy, really fast. In such case, one could easily wiggle the hub on the spindle.

I'm planning to buy new bearings and redo the passenger side. Perhaps I didn't have the snap ring properly set? I'm a little nervous that the same thing will happen again.
I'd take the hub apart before buying bearings. You might also need a snap ring and new lock washer. Make sure the snap ring was properly seated. Inspect your races for cracks and brinelling, cages for distortion and spindle for any damage. Obviously your washer, snap ring and nuts should not be distorted, cracked or excessively worn.

What am I doing wrong and what can I do better?
175 ft*lbs as a final torque is WAYYYYY too much. The initial torque is just to remove clearance at snap ring and races. IT IS NOT THE FINAL TORQUE!!! Leaving it at 175 ft-lb will smoke everything! This is a fine thread with little helical angle. As such, a small torque makes a huge force on the bearing. As mentioned previously, use a drift to remove snap ring to race slop.

I need to check the manual when I get home, but I'm pretty certain the manual calls for 175 ft-lbs for the outer locknut as mentioned in this post. The initial torque you mention--are you referring to the inner locknut? That is 50-60 ft-lb.

Perhaps not having the race backed up against the snap ring was a contributing factor.

[bry593]

Originally Posted by 402Bowtie

thanks for the reply bry!



If I understand correctly, there was definitely no contact with the inner diameter of the hub. Me tightening the inner locknut was generating the metal shavings somehow. From what I could tell it was just the friction between the thrust washer and the bearing. The bearing is hardened steel, so I'm guessing the metal was from the thrust washer....I'll take a closer look at it when I pull it apart.
Being that your bearings were not properly supporting the hub, it's almost 100% certain that the hub ID contacted the lock washer outer tabs. There ain't much room to begin with, let alone a displaced outer race. Easy to tell.
The hub is soft iron. You should be able to see circumferential scratches if the washer contacted.



I need to check the manual when I get home, but I'm pretty certain the manual calls for 175 ft-lbs for the outer locknut as mentioned in this post. The initial torque you mention--are you referring to the inner locknut? That is 50-60 ft-lb.

Perhaps not having the race backed up against the snap ring was a contributing factor.

That makes more sense. 50-60 while spinning the wheel, then back off to the first castleation, install lock washer and outer nut. Tighten outer nut against inner nut. I don't remember reading 175 ft-lbs in the manual. Seems pretty nutty (no pun intended). You might find both nuts want to turn together, causing the single lock tab to bend or shear off. However, If you can get 175, go for it. It will help keep the outer nut from loosening away from the lock washer. On the other hand, do not screw up the locking tab on the lock washer.

If the snap ring popped out of the groove when you first assembled, then your initial nut torque would have pushed the race until the nut ran out of spindle thread. I suppose having the brake drum riding on the shoes would have made it seem like there was not much wiggle going on. So you may not have noticed the outboard bearing lost support during the tightening procedure.

At any rate, I think you got it figured out now, but do remember to inspect the groove edges to make sure not rolled over. Also, make sure the snap ring is nice and flat.

I made a youtube video on the hub bearings and seal part numbers. I probably should have done one on the full hub overhaul. Oh well, not likely to ever happen at this point. Probably going to replace the HO with a later axle being that my R&P sings a bit at 75mph. That noise drives me crazy, and I can assure you, it's a short trip...

[BigBird05]

I just looked it up in the Service Manual and the inner bearing torque is 50-60 lbs then back off 1/8 turn with wheel rotating. The outer lock nut is 175lbs.

[402Bowtie]

At it again today... I'm pretty sure the popping noise I heard while tightening was the sound of the snap ring coming out. During this install I verified it was flat, and properly seated. Another thing I did differently this time was pressing the outer bearing race up against the snap ring.

However, with my torque wrench set to 50 ft lbs, I am still getting metal shavings when tightening the first locknut (the bearing and locknut are grinding). In fact, it is the act of spinning the wheel at the same time that is creating the shavings more so than tightening the locknut. I even put some bearing grease on the locknut. Everything appears square, and the wheel spins nicely before putting the locknut on. Any ideas?

Attached some pics that were taken after I had torqued down the first locknut, and then removed it after seeing shavings. The thrust washer is still installed in the pic. The second pic is a zoomed in shot of the shavings pointed out by the arrow on the right side of the first pic.

[jumpsoffrock]

These axles are so fullproof that if I was in your shoes--similar to SM465 issues--I'd just get a new rear and and forget the old one with issues.

I've heard people say that SM465's are so robust and common that it is often much easier and cheaper(and faster...) to simply throw out the bad one and swap in a used one...
Maybe the same situation for an old H052.

I know this thread isn't asking for left-field feedback, and I'm not exactly a respected technical member, but your poor axle is giving you some odd issues and feedback.

My 2¢.

[402Bowtie]

Thanks jumpsoffrock, but if it is caused by user error or wrong parts, then I'd have the same issue if I replace the bearings on that rear end.

Does anyone know how the outer bearing operates exactly? Should the thrust washer and the roller cage be stationary when the wheel spins? Or should the inner raceway be stationary?

In my case, the thrust washer appears to be making contact only with the roller cage. So if the roller cage is supposed to rotate, I don't see how the design would work, as it will be grinding with the thrust washer. Are both the cage and inner raceway stationary, and just the rollers spin?

[Accelo]

Should the thrust washer and the roller cage be stationary when the wheel spins?

The rolling element and the outer race turn with the hub. Bearings have four parts. The Inner race, Outer race, Rolling elements and the cage.
The Inner bearing race does not turn. The rollers, cage and outer race turn.

[402Bowtie]

Originally Posted by Accelo

The Inner bearing race does not turn. The rollers, cage and outer race turn.

Thanks Accelo, that makes sense. So is it a problem that my (keyed) thrust washer is making contact with the cage? In fact, my thrust washer is only making contact with the cage because the inner bearing race is offset axially towards the inner side of the hub.

It seems to me that the thrust washer should only make contact with the inner race, since the inner race is stationary with the axle tube (to which the thrust washer is keyed with) ....but that is not possible with my bearing.

Currently, as the hub rotates, the cage is rotating against the stationary thrust washer, thereby generating the metal shavings.

[Accelo]

You will need to pull the bearings out and inspect them. The race or cage may be broken? Also inspect the shoulder on the back where the bearings butt up against it.
This is a fairly simple set up. I believe you will find the issue.

[bry593]

Originally Posted by 402Bowtie

Currently, as the hub rotates, the cage is rotating against the stationary thrust washer, thereby generating the metal shavings.

Yup, that's a problem. Cage should not extend beyond the inner race. Either the slots in the cage are worn, or maybe a low quality bearing replacement was used. I've seen lots of issues with China manufactured bearings (and seals).

Use the bearings listed in my youtube video (Brian's Garage) and you won't have any problems.....

[402Bowtie]

Originally Posted by bry593

Yup, that's a problem. Cage should not extend beyond the inner race. Either the slots in the cage are worn, or maybe a low quality bearing replacement was used. I've seen lots of issues with China manufactured bearings (and seals).

Use the bearings listed in my youtube video (Brian's Garage) and you won't have any problems.....

I've tried two new bearings that both seem to have the issue. One from O'Reilly that was made in Spain and one from Napa that was made in Japan. I'll check out your YouTube video. Thanks!

[bry593]

Originally Posted by 402Bowtie

I've tried two new bearings that both seem to have the issue. One from O'Reilly that was made in Spain and one from Napa that was made in Japan. I'll check out your YouTube video. Thanks!

The Japanese bearing should be fine. Are you sure you have the cup and cone installed correctly? The small diameter end of the cone should face toward the center of the truck. You might have it reversed?

Bearing arrangement: [>--<] not [<-->]

Does that make sense?

[402Bowtie]

Originally Posted by bry593

The Japanese bearing should be fine. Are you sure you have the cup and cone installed correctly? The small diameter end of the cone should face toward the center of the truck. You might have it reversed?

Bearing arrangement: [>--<] not [<-->]

Does that make sense?

Yes, does that make sense. The two cones should point towards each other. You have me wondering now... I will check. Thanks again.

[402Bowtie]

Well, I feel like an idiot. I had the outer bearing and race reversed. Today, I put in new outer and inner bearings (third time's the charm), and it's amazing how well it drives when the bearings are oriented correctly!

Thanks for everyone's help, especially you bry593.

[best view]

If at first u dont succeed try try again