'69 C20 Won't Start - PLEASE HELP!

[MarineChevyDriver]

I bought a 69 C20 about a month ago. It ran fine when I bought it, though it had an oil leak I knew about, I replaced the oil pan gasket. It still leaked from the front of the pan so I put more RTV on the outside and that sealed it up. I was driving on the highway when I started losing power and it eventually died on the road. I opened the hood the the oil was smoking from out of the dip stick tube, and also the valve covers when I opened the oil cover. I let off the pressure with the radiator cover tab and steam and hot coolant quickly evacuated out the bottom. I let a good bit of it out and then poured a gallon of water into the radiator once I could open it. It wasn't cold water as it was in the truck. I got a tow home and checked the oil, there was none in it at all. I had some leaks from the valve covers prior to that so I replaced those gaskets, cleaned up the carb, the thermostat housing which was corroded and new, cleaned the EGR valve, replaced all the vacuum hoses and PCV valve, drained all the coolant and flushed the radiator and then replaced the hoses, and finally put a full 5 quarts of oil in.

My problem: I put everything back together last night, tried to start it up and the lights came on with the turn of the key without the light knob pulled. It made a noise like it turned over with two attempts to start, someone helping me said the fan turned, but then after that I got nothing. No starter clicks, no turning, nothing. We put it on jumper cables thinking it was the battery and nothing. Got the battery tested and it's good. I put the battery back tonight and still nothing. No noise, no indications of start attempts, just head lights. I discovered that the previous owners terrible starter hookup led to the main wire being burnt by the exhaust headers all the way to the copper.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge. I'm still learning about working on older vehicles.

Here is what has been done to the truck when I bought it, so hopefully this will help shed some more light.

Rebuilt:
3 speed tranny - I think it's a turbo 350
1991 Crate 350cc 5.7L V8

New:
Tires, wheels, and brakes
Edlebrock Carb 1406
Thermostat and housing
EGR vacuum sensor (not the actual EGR valve itself, but the sensor on the front of the block that has two ports on it. one to the carb vaccum and the other to the EGR valve.)
New MSD Ignition distributor, cap, and wires
Full exhaust and headers (can't remember the brand)
Starter looks fairy new
Battery

I replaced:
oil pan gasket
valve cover gaskets
disassembled and cleaned the carb
cleaned and tested the thermostat and housing
cleaned and tested the EGR valve
drained and reverse flushed the radiator and replaced the hoses
replaced all vacuum lines and PCV valve
replaced the fuel lines with a steel edlebrock wrapped line and a steel hardline with filter


There is a pretty poor looking wiring job on the truck. There was a ground wire coming of the negative battery terminal that was hooked to the body. There are random and unused wires throughout the engine bay. The person who installed it just took the shortest route to everything, so it looks pretty bad.

I'm uploading some pics that may or may not help. I'll have to get more engine pics soon. Thank you all.

[NoNeck]

Sounds like the engine ran really hot, and without oil. It could be several things...

If it gradually lost power at highway speeds, I would guess a "wiped" cam. Without oil, the cam lobes get eaten away and don't open and close the valves completely. But, this wouldn't keep the engine from starting. It just wouldn't have much power. Unless the cam broke because of oil starvation. If the engine turns over, you could hear the cam rattle or clink in the intake valley. You can remove the intake manifold and inspect the cam without removing it. Look for tiny sparkles of metal around the camshaft. A few metal specs in the intake valley is normal on a high mileage engine, but not a LOT. Also, look for "bluing" and scratches of the cam lobes. If it won't turn over...

Another possibility, with the engine that hot, and no oil, the engine could be seized. Without lubrication and coolant at the cylinders, the rings can actually melt and become "welded" to the cylinder walls (not good). Remove the spark plugs, and use a long-handled ratchet with 5/8" deep-well socket (I think), and try to turn the engine over by hand. Connect the ratchet to the crank bolt and rotated clockwise. If the engine turns freely, it is not seized. If you can't get it to budge, it very well could be seized.

One last thought... If the Positive wire to the starter shorted against the header, it's possible that there are shorts in the wiring harness now. It could also damage your distributor coil and stater solenoid. If the PO cut up the harness and used creative ways to connect things, I would look at replacing the engine harness. You can get good used ones here on the forum if you become a paying member (well worth it), or purchase a new one. With your headlights coming on when you turn the key, I suspect a short either at the ignition switch, headlight relay, high-beam switch or headlight switch. Or, just the wiring in general.

I hope some of this helps.

NoNeck

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by NoNeck

Sounds like the engine ran really hot, and without oil. It could be several things...

If it gradually lost power at highway speeds, I would guess a "wiped" cam. Without oil, the cam lobes get eaten away and don't open and close the valves completely. But, this wouldn't keep the engine from starting. It just wouldn't have much power. Unless the cam broke because of oil starvation. If the engine turns over, you could hear the cam rattle or clink in the intake valley. You can remove the intake manifold and inspect the cam without removing it. Look for tiny sparkles of metal around the camshaft. A few metal specs in the intake valley is normal on a high mileage engine, but not a LOT. Also, look for "bluing" and scratches of the cam lobes. If it won't turn over...

Another possibility, with the engine that hot, and no oil, the engine could be seized. Without lubrication and coolant at the cylinders, the rings can actually melt and become "welded" to the cylinder walls (not good). Remove the spark plugs, and use a long-handled ratchet with 5/8" deep-well socket (I think), and try to turn the engine over by hand. Connect the ratchet to the crank bolt and rotated clockwise. If the engine turns freely, it is not seized. If you can't get it to budge, it very well could be seized.

One last thought... If the Positive wire to the starter shorted against the header, it's possible that there are shorts in the wiring harness now. It could also damage your distributor coil and stater solenoid. If the PO cut up the harness and used creative ways to connect things, I would look at replacing the engine harness. You can get good used ones here on the forum if you become a paying member (well worth it), or purchase a new one. With your headlights coming on when you turn the key, I suspect a short either at the ignition switch, headlight relay, high-beam switch or headlight switch. Or, just the wiring in general.

I hope some of this helps.

NoNeck

Yes that's good information!

I'm not an expert, but since the engine turned over initially I would think its not seized. It appears like its an electrical problem like you said. Would it work if I simply replaced the positive starter wire? I want to put an entire new wiring harness in the vehicle anyways, but I'd like to get the start issue identified sooner rather than later as I have to put my truck into storage soon before I leave on deployment.

Thanks,
Cody
Posted via Mobile Device

[NoNeck]

Cody -

You can purchase a Remote Starter Switch from AutoZone, PepBoys, etc., and use it to by-pass your wiring harness to narrow down your problem. They are less than $15. The one I have has a push button on the top and two leads, one Red and one Black.

First, make sure the truck is in Park (or neutral for manual trans) and chocked.. Attach the Red gator clamp from the Remote Starter onto the solenoid where the big positive battery cable attaches. Then, attach the Black gator clamp to the "S" or starter terminal of the solenoid. You may have to look closely, but it is marked. Again, MAKE SURE YOUR TRUCK IS NOT IN GEAR! Now, you can activate the starter and turn the engine using the push button.

I'm sure a lot of people will chime in to say you can do the same thing with a screw driver by touching the big post on the solenoid to the "S" terminal. Well... you can, but I have found with headers and limited work room, the remote starter is much easier.

If it starts and runs, the problem is probably a short somewhere in the harness near the starter. By the way... WE APPRECIATE YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY!

NoNeck (Wayne)

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by NoNeck

Cody -

You can purchase a Remote Starter Switch from AutoZone, PepBoys, etc., and use it to by-pass your wiring harness to narrow down your problem. They are less than $15. The one I have has a push button on the top and two leads, one Red and one Black.

First, make sure the truck is in Park (or neutral for manual trans) and chocked.. Attach the Red gator clamp from the Remote Starter onto the solenoid where the big positive battery cable attaches. Then, attach the Black gator clamp to the "S" or starter terminal of the solenoid. You may have to look closely, but it is marked. Again, MAKE SURE YOUR TRUCK IS NOT IN GEAR! Now, you can activate the starter and turn the engine using the push button.

I'm sure a lot of people will chime in to say you can do the same thing with a screw driver by touching the big post on the solenoid to the "S" terminal. Well... you can, but I have found with headers and limited work room, the remote starter is much easier.

If it starts and runs, the problem is probably a short somewhere in the harness near the starter. By the way... WE APPRECIATE YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY!

NoNeck (Wayne)

Thanks Wayne!

I had someone tell me about the screw driver method right before I read your response. I'm going to try it out.

I also had a suggestion that it might be a problem with the bendix gear?

[Tinkermc]

I am not a mechanic so good luck, I like others here thank you for doing your other job. I was involved in a little thing called Vietnam. Glad to have u home and keep your head down when you go. Good luck with the truck

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by MarineChevyDriver

Thanks Wayne!

I had someone tell me about the screw driver method right before I read your response. I'm going to try it out.

I also had a suggestion that it might be a problem with the bendix gear?

I tried connecting the two starter contacts and got sparking from the positive battery cable, but no arc from contact to contact or sparking from either side. No start, nothing.

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by Tinkermc

I am not a mechanic so good luck, I like others here thank you for doing your other job. I was involved in a little thing called Vietnam. Glad to have u home and keep your head down when you go. Good luck with the truck

Thanks.

Semper fi.

[litew8]

Do be very careful. What you were trying to do is bypass the ignition key to kick start the solenoid - to tell the starter to engage the flywheel.
Sounds like maybe the solenoid is fried, internally if there is no action.

[litew8]

Ensure the ignition key is turned to the ON position when trying the above.
And make sure you aren't touching any metal (hold the plastic end of screwdriver).

[MarineChevyDriver]

I tried the screw method in the same way the picture shows. It sparks on both contacts with no action. Tried it with the ignition on and off. Same result for both attempts.

I tried turning over the engine. No rotation. I'm afraid of pushing too hard for fear of stripping the bolt.

Knowing both of these facts, should I bother testing/replacing the starter or can I assume I've seized it?

[MarineChevyDriver]

I also only removed 4 of the front spark plugs when I attempted to rotate. Does this matter? It should have enough freedom to move if it's going to, right?

[MarineChevyDriver]

I'm going to try these instructions unless someone has a better idea.

[litew8]

The starter should try to kick if the solenoid is working properly.
You need to verify if the solenoid/starter is working first.

Do you know for a fact that the bad battery cable came into contact with metal?
Does it look like there are arc marks on your header?

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by litew8

The starter should try to kick if the solenoid is working properly.
You need to verify if the solenoid/starter is working first.

Do you know for a fact that the battery cable came into contact with metal?
-------
Also, how is it that there was no oil after you fixed the pan gasket?

Yes. I checked it multiple times. I left the battery hooked up except when I was doing all the maintenance before trying to start again. I took it out, but the positive remained on the starter. I touched both with a screw driver as described.

I think the gasket wasn't seated properly in front. So I drained the pan, unhooked all the bolts and reset it. It still leaked, so I just smothered the front of the pan edge with RTV and to my knowledge, it visibly stopped. Unless it was traveling down the underside of the truck and I didn't catch it, I don't know how it continued. There was quite a bit of leakage that traveled down the undercarriage so no telling if it was old or new leakage.

I've removed all the spark plugs and now I'm going to disengage the belts and try to turn it again. If I can't I'll keep going to with the valve cover instructions in the link I posted. Is it worth it?

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by litew8

Does it look like there are arc marks on your header?

Can't tell. There's some black marks but they could well be grease from reaching around in the area. I don't think it's an electrical burn.

[litew8]

You need to check to see if they are arc marks or not. Try wiping it clean and look.
I was just trying to diagnose the solinoid/starter to see if it was good.
If it's bad, it won't try and turn the engine. If it's good, and the engine doesn't turn,

[MarineChevyDriver]

Ok, so...spark plugs are out, belts are off, put the ratchet on with an extension for some more leverage and all I did was tighten the crankshaft bolt. She's definitely seized up. Are the instructions on eHow go to go?

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by litew8

You need to check to see if they are arc marks or not. Try wiping it clean and look.
I was just trying to diagnose the solinoid/starter to see if it was good.
If it's bad, it won't try and turn the engine. If it's good, and the engine doesn't turn,

It wiped clean.

[litew8]

Did you skip step 4?

[MarineChevyDriver]

Saw your happy mess by the way, looking good!

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by litew8

Did you skip step 4?

I haven't done it yet, I was trying to avoid it, but it looks like there's no other choice.

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by litew8

You need to check to see if they are arc marks or not. Try wiping it clean and look.
I was just trying to diagnose the solinoid/starter to see if it was good.
If it's bad, it won't try and turn the engine. If it's good, and the engine doesn't turn,

It also doesn't make any sound at all when attempting to start with the key and with the screw driver.

[litew8]

Thanks for the compliments man
I'm not sure what to tell you from here on out.
The picture you painted with no oil, etc... doesn't sound good at all.
Try using a breaker bar with large ratchet.

---
If you have to, take it to a shop and have them check things out.
Sorry to hear about the events to your truck man. After this, you'll be checking oils/fluids more regularly.

[MarineChevyDriver]

Originally Posted by litew8

Thanks for the compliments man
I'm not sure what to tell you from here on out.
The picture you painted with no oil, etc... doesn't sound good at all.
Try using a breaker bar with large ratchet.

---
If you have too, take it to a shop and have them check things out.

I was afraid of this.


Anyone else with any ideas?

I'm going to work on the valve portion of the directions later. I'm done for tonight. Please help shoot ideas my way if anyone can help out.

Thanks!