coe/s10 info/pics. help?

[gecz28]

hey everybody, im new to the boards here and was wondering if anyone could me out. im looking at getting a coe and doing the s10 swap.
is it possible to to get a coe on an s10 frame and end up with a 6-7ft bed? ive seen lots of (looks like) 8ft+. ive also seen some with what looks like an add on to the front of the bed, i guess to fill the gap.

can anyone help or have pics??

thanks
mike

[Warrens69GMC]

Maybe a C10 (1/2 Ton) but definatley not a s10.

[iowaboynca]

Check out 47fasttoys build if you want to see a sweet swap on a COE. He did his on a silverado drivetrain.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=596551

[dsraven]

http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com...esto/56134.htm

try this site for frame dimensions


gmupfitters

try this site for s10 and siverado frame dimensions

s10 is gonna be too small for a coe, in my opinion. too narrow

[3drburb]

That will be a lot of weight up front for an S10 frame.
1/2 or 3/4 ton would be a lot better.

[mr48chev]

Tread width of an S-10 is far too narrow to work with a COE cab. It's actually too narrow for the 3100 cab but guys run spacers or reverse wheels.

Personally I'd be looking at a 1 ton Chassis with the "real truck" rims so the COE ended up looking like a proper big truck rather than a big truck cab sitting on a car chassis.

[gecz28]

Originally Posted by dsraven

http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com...esto/56134.htm

try this site for frame dimensions


gmupfitters

try this site for s10 and siverado frame dimensions

s10 is gonna be too small for a coe, in my opinion. too narrow

from what ive seen, the coe frame is 34" wide and the s10 is 40"
ive seen fasttoys, and i like his build a lot. for me i think his front wheels are a bit to wide, id like for them to tuck under the fenders, without air ride.
heres what id like to try and do, just with a shorter bed, but havent been able to find any info on theses trucks tho

[joedoh]

here is one that came out beautiful. lots of build pictures as I remember.

http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f30/pr...b-over-358838/

as a general rule I try to avoid telling someone NOT to do something I havent at least tried. you will get lots of opinions, and lots of those opinions will be from well meaning guys who havent done it. Now if someone has tried it and says dont, that would perk up my ears.

[dsraven]

do you have your truck yet?
not sure what shape your cab is in but, before you get it off the original frame and do too much, get it sitting on a flat surface and level it up. doors on, get the hinges rebuilt/adjusted so the doors close good and fit. then tack in some bracing so the cab can't distort when you are messing around with stuff. brace it in an X pattern 2 ways, across the floor and across the back at least. i recommend to brace it from lower A post right to upper A post left and vice versa to make an X. same on the floor, lower a post right to lower B post left. an X won't let the cab move so when you are building mounts etc you don't get something out of whack and then, when you are finishing and fitting doors etc, it is too late.

I think the gm upfitters site will give you all the frame dimensional stuff you need for either an s10 or a 1/2 or 3/4 ton. probably the load capacity as well. if you are just riding around without a load you may get away with an s10, do some weight comparisons for frame loading to see what the front end will actually be expected to carry with the weight of the cab, engine and trans etc, check the load sticker on the s10 door jamb to see what it is rated for, then decide. don't forget that too heavy on the front makes it difficult to get the brake bias set up so you don't always skid the rear wheels trying to stop, or, you may do burn outs constantly when taking off. the rear would also skid out easily on corners. not trying to be a buzz kill, just saying it is good to research some before going in blind. I can tell you I have driven unloaded cab over trucks before and it is an uneasy feeling when the rear skids out on a corner. pm 47fasttoys , he placed his on a 1/2 ton frame, don't know the reasoning, but I think he repositioned the engine to be further back to help remedy the weight distribution? mid engine would be cool for sure. also it will be a challenge to get steering to work i assume. remember universal joints are only made to be used at 7 degrees otherwise the two shafts actually speed up and slow down, when compared to each other, through one rev. could be a bear to steer i suppose.
to weigh the cab you could stop in at a scale with the truck/trailer that you can carry the cab and front end sheet metal from the coe. go empty once and then go with the load to see what a coe cab and front sheet metal actually weighs.
anyway, I have never done one of these and i am just talking through my hat. you probably have spend hours researching so you know what you are getting into. just would hate to see you start and give up part way through, or end up with something that looks cool but is unsafe to drive around.

[b00sted]

Originally Posted by gecz28

from what ive seen, the coe frame is 34" wide and the s10 is 40"
ive seen fasttoys, and i like his build a lot. for me i think his front wheels are a bit to wide, id like for them to tuck under the fenders, without air ride.
heres what id like to try and do, just with a shorter bed, but havent been able to find any info on theses trucks tho

This is on ebay for sale. Said it was on a s10 frame. Same truck????

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Chevrol...vip=true&rt=nc

[dsraven]

different truck by the patina on the door and fender. that is subject to change though depending on when the pics were taken.

Mike (gecz28)
remember that when wheel spacers are used to bring the wheel out more the steering geometry is going to change. the ball joints centreline and steering knuckle work together with the wheel offset to place the tire contact patch inline with the balljoints. when the wheels are turned (vehicle stationary) the tire will scrub a spot on the floor and it will be a circular spot. with the wrong wheel backspace, wheel spacers or a terribly wrong sized tire diameter the wheel will actually move in a circular arc as the wheels are turned. the tire will leave a trail in the shape of an arc when the vehicle is stationary. not that great for alignment and driveability. maybe that is one reason to use a wheel track width that is more correct for the fender to wheel spacing you want. if you want the wheels tucked way inside the fenders then an s10 is maybe something to look at. there are lots of aftermarket suspension parts available for the s10, (monte carlo is same I think). longer control arms to put the wheels further apart,(that can cause bump steer if you don't know what you are doing so be mindful of that) and it is all at a cost, mind you. if you want the wheels to be closer to the fender lip then a 1/2 ton is maybe better for you. stronger as well, bigger brakes without buying aftermarket, stronger ball joints, tie rod ends, beefier stabilizer bars, frame rails etc etc. I m sure you get the point, but you will do what you want. that is what hotrodding is about. just remember to build it safe, others drive on the same road as you do. I would suggest that you research some steering geometry pages before you pull the trigger, either way. if there is one close by you could see that would be good as well. private message the guys on here and other forums to get the inside scoop on what to do and what not to do.

[gecz28]

Originally Posted by b00sted

This is on ebay for sale. Said it was on a s10 frame. Same truck????

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Chevrol...vip=true&rt=nc

Yea the last pic is the one on ebay. He also has a green one on there too. Those look to have a piece added to front of the bed

[gecz28]

Originally Posted by dsraven

do you have your truck yet?
not sure what shape your cab is in but, before you get it off the original frame and do too much, get it sitting on a flat surface and level it up. doors on, get the hinges rebuilt/adjusted so the doors close good and fit. then tack in some bracing so the cab can't distort when you are messing around with stuff. brace it in an X pattern 2 ways, across the floor and across the back at least. i recommend to brace it from lower A post right to upper A post left and vice versa to make an X. same on the floor, lower a post right to lower B post left. an X won't let the cab move so when you are building mounts etc you don't get something out of whack and then, when you are finishing and fitting doors etc, it is too late.

I think the gm upfitters site will give you all the frame dimensional stuff you need for either an s10 or a 1/2 or 3/4 ton. probably the load capacity as well. if you are just riding around without a load you may get away with an s10, do some weight comparisons for frame loading to see what the front end will actually be expected to carry with the weight of the cab, engine and trans etc, check the load sticker on the s10 door jamb to see what it is rated for, then decide. don't forget that too heavy on the front makes it difficult to get the brake bias set up so you don't always skid the rear wheels trying to stop, or, you may do burn outs constantly when taking off. the rear would also skid out easily on corners. not trying to be a buzz kill, just saying it is good to research some before going in blind. I can tell you I have driven unloaded cab over trucks before and it is an uneasy feeling when the rear skids out on a corner. pm 47fasttoys , he placed his on a 1/2 ton frame, don't know the reasoning, but I think he repositioned the engine to be further back to help remedy the weight distribution? mid engine would be cool for sure. also it will be a challenge to get steering to work i assume. remember universal joints are only made to be used at 7 degrees otherwise the two shafts actually speed up and slow down, when compared to each other, through one rev. could be a bear to steer i suppose.
to weigh the cab you could stop in at a scale with the truck/trailer that you can carry the cab and front end sheet metal from the coe. go empty once and then go with the load to see what a coe cab and front sheet metal actually weighs.
anyway, I have never done one of these and i am just talking through my hat. you probably have spend hours researching so you know what you are getting into. just would hate to see you start and give up part way through, or end up with something that looks cool but is unsafe to drive around.

i actually havent gotten the truck yet. ive been trying to research as much as i can but havent seen anybody post a build like i want to do(short bed). i actually tried to call the guy in the 2nd pic, but he didnt answer, left a message lol.
id might use the truck as a non snow daily driver lol. i may haul some wood or something but nothing huge like concrete or tow a car ect.
i cant see the coe weighing that much more than the s10 front. and the difference in weight would only be like riding around with another person in the truck lol

[47 Fasttoys]

Well I guess it's time to weigh in on this one. First lets try and figure the weight issue. I have owned both a '54 3100 and a COE (still do). I would guess the total sheet metal package (no bed) is within 100# with the COE being the heavier. Cabs are the same with the COE having modifications in the foot well, fire wall and floor areas. Doors have the corners cut off. A note on doors: a regular cab door can be converted to a COE door, it has been done. Front fenders have a wider mounting point, hood and inner fenders are shorter by about 2 foot, both are also taller by a few inches. Grill bars are the same with wider spacing on the larger truck. The additional weight comes in the step area verses the running board.
Now, weight on the front end of an S-10: If your planning on front engine your looking at around 65% if not more on the front axle. If you run a cast iron SBC or LS slightly behind the axle center line and the cab over that plus insulation (your gonna need a lot of that with an engine below your feet) plus engine cover your looking at around 1800 to 2000# on your front springs. can a S-10 handle that? I know nothing about S-10s. I have seen 2 front engine builds up close and both where very tight in this area. Steering hook up is also a nightmare on front engine location. Now lets say you go mid engine: 6 foot bed? that leaves you with a very short drive shaft, maybe in the 12 inch range.
As others have mentioned front end wheel track is the biggest issue. Wider control arms will solve that but also create issues with steering geometry. After you look at all these additional expenses to make the S-10 chassis work you could buy a 1/2 ton are larger chassis for much less.
The S-10 also has the high kick up in the rear frame area, most of the guys running them on 3100 series have very shallow beds. You want to use it as a truck and a daily driver? Great, I use mine daily and love it. If you want it to sit lower like some of the ones pictured your gonna need to raise the engine a little if it's a static drop.
I'm not trying to tell you it can't be done by any means, it can and has been done. It all comes down to can you do it, and do you have the resources to do it? Do you have a well equipped shop, welding and fabrication skills? Do you have a bit of extra cash? OK, a large sum. If your 50% on these things try something a little more common. If your at 75%, jump in and we will give you advice on how to swim.
If you do go down this road just post up pictures and questions and I will be happy to help.
Rob

P.S. I went mid-engine for engine access, engine heat issues in the cab, weight distribution, clearance issues, steering hook up, 3 person seating, noise, and cool factor.
56K miles and counting.

[dsraven]

47fasttoys, since your truck is already completed maybe you could answer these questions for us all here.
if you had to guess, what would the weight on the front end be like compared to a stock 1/2 ton?
if you were to look under the front are the control arms fairly level with the ground, angled down like there is less weight or angled up like there is more weight?
what about the rear, how much do you estimate the deck weighs and how would that compare to the normal weight on a 1/2 ton truck, empty?
how does it ride compared to a normal 1/2 ton. do you feel it hit the suspension snubbers or does it ride like it has too much spring under it for the weight of the front end?
did you go with the long wheel base and beefy deck in order to place more weight bias out back?
do you ever feel like the rear brakes grab too much?
have you done any suspension mods to alleviate any weight bias issues or tire interference problems?
how did you insulate the cab floor for engine noise and heat?

you have done an amazing job of your truck frame transformation. it looks like it was made like that from factory. the way you fabbed the deck also suits the truck. short headache rack, lockers under the deck to make it look lower out back, and the angled area behind the wheels looks good too.

[joedoh]

fasttoys the s10 is 57/43, I would probably agree with your 65% front bias because the seating position of the coe isnt that much further forward than the s10, just a lot higher in the air.

I weighed my 3600 s10 at the scrapyard for a shipping estimate and it was 3160 lbs (after subtracting myself) so I would bet the sheetmetal of the standard 3100 is less than the s10 sheetmetal it replaced (I have speculated this several times in the past), so I bet your 100lb heavier estimate is probably pretty accurate too.

dsraven I bet even the wood bed weighed 3x the steel bed of the donor silverado he used. I put some 1 1/4 thick cedar from a donor flatbed in mine and it dropped the truck almost 1/4 inch.

I have thought about a coe project for a while now so I will pay attention to how this all works out.

[dsraven]

I am also curious to see how the questions get answered to be sure. I wonder about brake bias, steering geometry, cab heat from engine under floor, but i tend to over engineer things while some of my buddies get away with murder just because they are oblivious to what they did wrong. haha. they are driving their trucks while mine is a work in progress.

[dsraven]

according to reference.com,
The 2003 S10, for instance, has a curb weight of 3,016 pounds.the total gross weight of the 2003 Chevy S10 should not exceed 4,200 pounds, including any additional equipment or loads. This also includes any weight that the truck may be towing on a trailer or passengers inside the cab of the pickup truck.
according to the s10 forum, a short bed on a first generation weighs. with no tailgate,
"198 pound bed.
"32.5 pound tailgate."

does that help anybody?
I have driven 2wd, short bed, 4 cyl, 5 spd s10 in the winter, an old shop truck where I used to work. they basically have no traction. all the weight is up front. i think 2 guys could easily pick up the rear by the bumper

[mongocanfly]

Raven is right about 2 guys picking up the rear of a s10..by myself I can pick one up enough for one tire to roll backwards when in gear... (don't ask)...as for the coe pickups I've always thought they looked pretty cool..if I could find a decent coe that would probably be my next project..I always thought it would be slick if a good sheetmetal man could rework the front wheel openings to match the pickup wheel opening size/shape..it would match the rear fender better..

[joedoh]

I think that 3016lb is the 4 cyl shortbed reg cab, especially with the GWVR of 4200lbs, the ext cabs and longbeds are ~3200-3400 and I drove a longbed s10 for years before making it into a 47 GMC, I know its rating was closer to 5000, might even have been more.

on my s10 I have that cedar bed floor, its at LEAST 150lbs, so my 3600 is under 3k dripping wet. the cabs I bet are a wash to the coe, and I would figure the front clip a push too, the cab brackets though probably add weight.

on the s10 crash protection and sound insulation make up the bulk of the cab weight, on the old trucks its the heavy frame and cast iron stovebolt engine that make up the weight, on an s10 swap the heaviest parts are removed.

I dont know of many trucks that have any kind of traction in the rear, lots of guys want to upgrade the "weak" 7.625 rear and there is no chance of breaking it even with steamrollers and a locker, there just wont be any traction. I dont think anyone is saying you will be able to use it like a factory coe with an s10 chassis, or even with a late model 1/2 or 3/4 ton chassis either. look at the seating position of the coe, its not a lot further forward than the s10 seating position, and the heavy parts (suspension/engine) keep the center of mass low.

edit: I looked it up on the GM Heritage site, the 2wd 4 cylinder long bed GVWR is 4600 and the 2wd 4.3 long bed is 4900. that 3016 is the reg cab 4 cyl weight too.

[47 Fasttoys]

OK, here we go.
#1 I don't remember the front weight of the donor, NADA says it's curb weight was 4831#, I do know with the wood bed and 1/2 a tank of gas the COE weighs in at 5000# with an even 50/50 balance, yeah that surprised me to.

#2 I would say it is very close to to donor on the front axle.

#3 Control arms are flat. I had it aligned after finishing the build with the stock suspension and with uncut springs and it was very close with only a very small adjustment needed on the toe in.

#4 For the bed is heavier then the stock bed for sure. Now, that being said my donor was a short bed extended cab so some of the weight on the rear axle was from the cab. All that being said I would guess I picked up around 400# on the rear compared to stock.

#5 The ride is very good, maybe a little softer in the rear due to the bed weight.

#6 I do not hit the snubbers. I do hit the fenders from time to time as they are a bit closer to the tires then needed. More on that in a minute.

#7 I went with the long wheel base because it was available at a very good price and the mileage was low. I had also set my sights on 2003 to 2005 1500 series only for Gen 3 ECU, DBW and rack and pinion steering. It took about 1 month and the right one fell in my lap, only 6 miles from my house.
The bed was built for loading and overall space, I do use the truck as a truck on a regular basis.

#8 I don't notice any abnormal brake issues, 4 wheel discs all stock components with the ABS not hooked up.

#9 Suspension mods, yep, I run 8" airbags in the front, 5" helper air bags in the rear. I do still have the stock rear leaf springs in the rear and stock shocks all the way around. no front sway bar, I may put this on with the camper later. Normal ride pressure in the front is 85 PSI, the rear is at 5 to 10 PSI. With the wood bed I ran 0 PSI in the rear. 20 or more PSI in the rear will pick the rear up 2 to 3 inches when unloaded. Maximum load to date has been around 1500# on the bed and it was no problem at 50 PSI. I ran it up to 100 PSI once and it turned into a rock in the rear. The rear bags solved question #6.
The only time I have interference issues is when I drop the front, at that point turning the wheels is not a real option. Front bumper will hit the payment.

#10 I have insulation over the front engine covers which are under the seat. no heat issues from the engine.

# 11 Noise, very very quite, stock exhaust, no cats. I do get asked if its running often. My wife hates the sound (or lack of it), she wants it to rumble.

#12 Sir she said she was 18 officer and I had no idea her dad was the sheriff Sir. Sorry....flashback.

Other info: 1/8 mile time 10.541 @ 68 MPH, 3rd in truck club autocross out of 15. 17 to 18 MPG.

Thank you all for the compliments, this has been, by far, the most satisfying build I have done.
Rob