coe/s10 info/pics. help?

[dsraven]

do you have your truck yet?
not sure what shape your cab is in but, before you get it off the original frame and do too much, get it sitting on a flat surface and level it up. doors on, get the hinges rebuilt/adjusted so the doors close good and fit. then tack in some bracing so the cab can't distort when you are messing around with stuff. brace it in an X pattern 2 ways, across the floor and across the back at least. i recommend to brace it from lower A post right to upper A post left and vice versa to make an X. same on the floor, lower a post right to lower B post left. an X won't let the cab move so when you are building mounts etc you don't get something out of whack and then, when you are finishing and fitting doors etc, it is too late.

I think the gm upfitters site will give you all the frame dimensional stuff you need for either an s10 or a 1/2 or 3/4 ton. probably the load capacity as well. if you are just riding around without a load you may get away with an s10, do some weight comparisons for frame loading to see what the front end will actually be expected to carry with the weight of the cab, engine and trans etc, check the load sticker on the s10 door jamb to see what it is rated for, then decide. don't forget that too heavy on the front makes it difficult to get the brake bias set up so you don't always skid the rear wheels trying to stop, or, you may do burn outs constantly when taking off. the rear would also skid out easily on corners. not trying to be a buzz kill, just saying it is good to research some before going in blind. I can tell you I have driven unloaded cab over trucks before and it is an uneasy feeling when the rear skids out on a corner. pm 47fasttoys , he placed his on a 1/2 ton frame, don't know the reasoning, but I think he repositioned the engine to be further back to help remedy the weight distribution? mid engine would be cool for sure. also it will be a challenge to get steering to work i assume. remember universal joints are only made to be used at 7 degrees otherwise the two shafts actually speed up and slow down, when compared to each other, through one rev. could be a bear to steer i suppose.
to weigh the cab you could stop in at a scale with the truck/trailer that you can carry the cab and front end sheet metal from the coe. go empty once and then go with the load to see what a coe cab and front sheet metal actually weighs.
anyway, I have never done one of these and i am just talking through my hat. you probably have spend hours researching so you know what you are getting into. just would hate to see you start and give up part way through, or end up with something that looks cool but is unsafe to drive around.

[gecz28]

Originally Posted by dsraven

do you have your truck yet?
not sure what shape your cab is in but, before you get it off the original frame and do too much, get it sitting on a flat surface and level it up. doors on, get the hinges rebuilt/adjusted so the doors close good and fit. then tack in some bracing so the cab can't distort when you are messing around with stuff. brace it in an X pattern 2 ways, across the floor and across the back at least. i recommend to brace it from lower A post right to upper A post left and vice versa to make an X. same on the floor, lower a post right to lower B post left. an X won't let the cab move so when you are building mounts etc you don't get something out of whack and then, when you are finishing and fitting doors etc, it is too late.

I think the gm upfitters site will give you all the frame dimensional stuff you need for either an s10 or a 1/2 or 3/4 ton. probably the load capacity as well. if you are just riding around without a load you may get away with an s10, do some weight comparisons for frame loading to see what the front end will actually be expected to carry with the weight of the cab, engine and trans etc, check the load sticker on the s10 door jamb to see what it is rated for, then decide. don't forget that too heavy on the front makes it difficult to get the brake bias set up so you don't always skid the rear wheels trying to stop, or, you may do burn outs constantly when taking off. the rear would also skid out easily on corners. not trying to be a buzz kill, just saying it is good to research some before going in blind. I can tell you I have driven unloaded cab over trucks before and it is an uneasy feeling when the rear skids out on a corner. pm 47fasttoys , he placed his on a 1/2 ton frame, don't know the reasoning, but I think he repositioned the engine to be further back to help remedy the weight distribution? mid engine would be cool for sure. also it will be a challenge to get steering to work i assume. remember universal joints are only made to be used at 7 degrees otherwise the two shafts actually speed up and slow down, when compared to each other, through one rev. could be a bear to steer i suppose.
to weigh the cab you could stop in at a scale with the truck/trailer that you can carry the cab and front end sheet metal from the coe. go empty once and then go with the load to see what a coe cab and front sheet metal actually weighs.
anyway, I have never done one of these and i am just talking through my hat. you probably have spend hours researching so you know what you are getting into. just would hate to see you start and give up part way through, or end up with something that looks cool but is unsafe to drive around.

i actually havent gotten the truck yet. ive been trying to research as much as i can but havent seen anybody post a build like i want to do(short bed). i actually tried to call the guy in the 2nd pic, but he didnt answer, left a message lol.
id might use the truck as a non snow daily driver lol. i may haul some wood or something but nothing huge like concrete or tow a car ect.
i cant see the coe weighing that much more than the s10 front. and the difference in weight would only be like riding around with another person in the truck lol

[47 Fasttoys]

Well I guess it's time to weigh in on this one. First lets try and figure the weight issue. I have owned both a '54 3100 and a COE (still do). I would guess the total sheet metal package (no bed) is within 100# with the COE being the heavier. Cabs are the same with the COE having modifications in the foot well, fire wall and floor areas. Doors have the corners cut off. A note on doors: a regular cab door can be converted to a COE door, it has been done. Front fenders have a wider mounting point, hood and inner fenders are shorter by about 2 foot, both are also taller by a few inches. Grill bars are the same with wider spacing on the larger truck. The additional weight comes in the step area verses the running board.
Now, weight on the front end of an S-10: If your planning on front engine your looking at around 65% if not more on the front axle. If you run a cast iron SBC or LS slightly behind the axle center line and the cab over that plus insulation (your gonna need a lot of that with an engine below your feet) plus engine cover your looking at around 1800 to 2000# on your front springs. can a S-10 handle that? I know nothing about S-10s. I have seen 2 front engine builds up close and both where very tight in this area. Steering hook up is also a nightmare on front engine location. Now lets say you go mid engine: 6 foot bed? that leaves you with a very short drive shaft, maybe in the 12 inch range.
As others have mentioned front end wheel track is the biggest issue. Wider control arms will solve that but also create issues with steering geometry. After you look at all these additional expenses to make the S-10 chassis work you could buy a 1/2 ton are larger chassis for much less.
The S-10 also has the high kick up in the rear frame area, most of the guys running them on 3100 series have very shallow beds. You want to use it as a truck and a daily driver? Great, I use mine daily and love it. If you want it to sit lower like some of the ones pictured your gonna need to raise the engine a little if it's a static drop.
I'm not trying to tell you it can't be done by any means, it can and has been done. It all comes down to can you do it, and do you have the resources to do it? Do you have a well equipped shop, welding and fabrication skills? Do you have a bit of extra cash? OK, a large sum. If your 50% on these things try something a little more common. If your at 75%, jump in and we will give you advice on how to swim.
If you do go down this road just post up pictures and questions and I will be happy to help.
Rob

P.S. I went mid-engine for engine access, engine heat issues in the cab, weight distribution, clearance issues, steering hook up, 3 person seating, noise, and cool factor.
56K miles and counting.

[dsraven]

47fasttoys, since your truck is already completed maybe you could answer these questions for us all here.
if you had to guess, what would the weight on the front end be like compared to a stock 1/2 ton?
if you were to look under the front are the control arms fairly level with the ground, angled down like there is less weight or angled up like there is more weight?
what about the rear, how much do you estimate the deck weighs and how would that compare to the normal weight on a 1/2 ton truck, empty?
how does it ride compared to a normal 1/2 ton. do you feel it hit the suspension snubbers or does it ride like it has too much spring under it for the weight of the front end?
did you go with the long wheel base and beefy deck in order to place more weight bias out back?
do you ever feel like the rear brakes grab too much?
have you done any suspension mods to alleviate any weight bias issues or tire interference problems?
how did you insulate the cab floor for engine noise and heat?

you have done an amazing job of your truck frame transformation. it looks like it was made like that from factory. the way you fabbed the deck also suits the truck. short headache rack, lockers under the deck to make it look lower out back, and the angled area behind the wheels looks good too.

[joedoh]

fasttoys the s10 is 57/43, I would probably agree with your 65% front bias because the seating position of the coe isnt that much further forward than the s10, just a lot higher in the air.

I weighed my 3600 s10 at the scrapyard for a shipping estimate and it was 3160 lbs (after subtracting myself) so I would bet the sheetmetal of the standard 3100 is less than the s10 sheetmetal it replaced (I have speculated this several times in the past), so I bet your 100lb heavier estimate is probably pretty accurate too.

dsraven I bet even the wood bed weighed 3x the steel bed of the donor silverado he used. I put some 1 1/4 thick cedar from a donor flatbed in mine and it dropped the truck almost 1/4 inch.

I have thought about a coe project for a while now so I will pay attention to how this all works out.

[dsraven]

I am also curious to see how the questions get answered to be sure. I wonder about brake bias, steering geometry, cab heat from engine under floor, but i tend to over engineer things while some of my buddies get away with murder just because they are oblivious to what they did wrong. haha. they are driving their trucks while mine is a work in progress.

[dsraven]

according to reference.com,
The 2003 S10, for instance, has a curb weight of 3,016 pounds.the total gross weight of the 2003 Chevy S10 should not exceed 4,200 pounds, including any additional equipment or loads. This also includes any weight that the truck may be towing on a trailer or passengers inside the cab of the pickup truck.
according to the s10 forum, a short bed on a first generation weighs. with no tailgate,
"198 pound bed.
"32.5 pound tailgate."

does that help anybody?
I have driven 2wd, short bed, 4 cyl, 5 spd s10 in the winter, an old shop truck where I used to work. they basically have no traction. all the weight is up front. i think 2 guys could easily pick up the rear by the bumper