oil pan to axle pumpkin measurement - The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network

**Yukon Jack** · 01-29-2005, 06:08 PM

A friend of mine is putting a Cummins Diesel into his 70 or 71 4wd. He needs to know what the measurement is on a stock 4x4 between the oil pan and the axle tube so he can position his engine as low as possible. Thanks.

JimKshortstep4x4 · 01-29-2005, 09:16 PM

Jack,

I will be happy to get some measurements for you but I can't understand what he is looking for as the axle tubes are under the engine cradle. (The oil pan of course is over the cradle). The pumpkin sits to the side and the drive shaft is to the side of the oil pan.

Jim

**Yukon Jack** · 01-29-2005, 09:57 PM

That cradle will be gone as the Cummins is so big, but you are right, that would be the place to measure to for minimum needed clearance. He is having to fab up new crossmembers but there won't be one in that exact location.

**Yukon Jack** · 01-29-2005, 10:06 PM

I will have to get some updated pics of his truck. He has stretched the frame already as the Cummins uses a divorced transfer case and needs a bit more wheelbase. It will be a dually 4x4 with a dump bed. He is a contractor and this truck will be used on the job site and used to haul equipment. He has been doing some reinforcement of the frame lately to deal with the Cummins' torque.

JimKshortstep4x4 · 01-30-2005, 06:53 AM

Jack,

If you can get a definition on what to measure, I will get you a measurement as we have a rolling chassis, (4x4) with the engine in it.

Jim

4x4Poet · 01-30-2005, 07:09 AM

Y/J, I've considered doing this with my K20, but I'm concerned with the weight carrying capability of the 3/4 ton D44. Since your bud has a dually, is he using a higher strength front axle?

I'm surprised he needed more frame length. What is the exact tranny & xfer case combo? And which CTD version? I'm just curious for my own contemplations, so feel free to pass.

**Yukon Jack** · 01-30-2005, 10:08 AM

The engine, automatic transmission and transfer case all come from a Dodge pickup. I will find out what year. I know it says on the top of the engine 160 HP, 400 lb-ft and it is turbocharged. When he intially fit everything in place the rear driveshaft length was very short and he felt he needed to have more length. That was okay with him because his dump bed will be custom made. Yes it is a Dana 44 and I know he has his eyes out for a Dana 60 to remedy that potential problem.

Jim, how about you just measure from the mid line of the engine crossmember to the top of the axle tube. That will be close enough for him. We are guessing stock will be about 5" to 6".

Tx Firefighter · 01-30-2005, 10:17 AM

That would be a 12 valve mechanical pump Cummins engine.

**Yukon Jack** · 01-31-2005, 03:16 PM

ttt

JimKshortstep4x4 · 01-31-2005, 05:29 PM

Jack,

I am sorry for not getting back to you sooner, somehow I missed your last post.

I measured my 71 Short box 4x4 since it is complete and has more weight on the springs. Measuring from the engine cradle to the oil pan, (centered ion the cradle), I get 5/8" . From under the cradle to the axle tube, I get 4 1/2".

Adding up the measurements I get 5 1/4" from the tube to the oil pan, (5/8" + 1/8" (thickness of cradle) + 4 1/2").

If you need any more measurements let me know. I also have a bare 4x4 frame and running gear, (no motor).

Jim

**Yukon Jack** · 01-31-2005, 06:42 PM

Thanks Jim - that will help my friend.

**Yukon Jack** · 01-31-2005, 06:57 PM

4x4Poet - my friend said the tranny is an Allison automoatic transmission out of a mid 80's Ford large school bus. He does not know what the bellhousing was from that he is using. The transfer case is a divorced unit out of a 72 Dodge pickup. I beleive it is an NP205 but I didn't look to make sure.

Here are pics I took back in April of 04 when it was in the frame initially.

4x4Poet · 02-01-2005, 12:34 AM

Wow! That's quite a tranny. No messin' around with strength issues. I like how your friend thinks big.

He might need some custom springs to ensure proper front axle to oil pan clearance. I'd recommend Alcan Spring. Alcan could make springs based on the exact weight of the truck split into front and rear measurements.

Looks like he'll have some vibration from the NP205 cradle being mounted on the frame with no bushings. A '70s IHC TravelAll's NP205 cradle & frame brackets fit a 67-72 K10/20 frame since the inside frame measurements are the same. I measured myself on my '71 K20 and '71 TravelAll. Then he'd have bushing cushioning. Just in case the vibration becomes too much even for a dump truck.

BTW, I have been told by a shop that installs CTDs in GM trucks that my K20's HD44 will handle the weight of a CTD, but I'm not so sure. I'm also leary of the axle and R&P torque capacity, even if I upgrade the axles to 4340 inner and outer axles from Superior. Still, the shop owner regularly swaps CTDs into some of the many GM trucks with 3/4 ton D44s. For me, the jury is still out, even for a 12-valve CTD. Thanks for the pics.

Tx Firefighter · 02-01-2005, 08:37 AM

I have a 94 Dodge Cummins 1 ton 4x4 dually.

When I went to the dealer to get a seal to repair a leak, the parts guy had to confirm whether my truck had a dana 44 or dana 60. Seems many of the 1 ton Dodge 4x4's with Cummins had Dana 44 in the mid 90's. Apparantly, the axle is strong enough, because they don't seem to fail under the Dodges.

1969 GMC · 02-01-2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

I have a 94 Dodge Cummins 1 ton 4x4 dually.

When I went to the dealer to get a seal to repair a leak, the parts guy had to confirm whether my truck had a dana 44 or dana 60. Seems many of the 1 ton Dodge 4x4's with Cummins had Dana 44 in the mid 90's. Apparantly, the axle is strong enough, because they don't seem to fail under the Dodges.

Hmm thats strange...every Dodge Diesel I have heard of, 3/4 or 1 ton, has had the D60 (or the D61). No d44's...I don't believe that one would last under an ISB.

Tx Firefighter · 02-01-2005, 02:47 PM

I trust the Dodge parts man 100 percent. He's actually a board member here (67Sub). I met him here on the board and he is a dealership parts guy at the Dodge house by where I work.

01-29-2005, 06:08 PM	#1
Yukon Jack Post Whore Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Rose Hill, KS, USA Posts: 12,684	oil pan to axle tube measurement A friend of mine is putting a Cummins Diesel into his 70 or 71 4wd. He needs to know what the measurement is on a stock 4x4 between the oil pan and the axle tube so he can position his engine as low as possible. Thanks. __________________ 1970 Blazer with a 400 sbc and 4" lift 1980 Pontiac Trans Am, 455 Oldsmobile 2012 Kawasaki Concours 14 Last edited by Yukon Jack; 01-29-2005 at 07:08 PM.

01-29-2005, 09:57 PM	#3
Yukon Jack Post Whore Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Rose Hill, KS, USA Posts: 12,684	That cradle will be gone as the Cummins is so big, but you are right, that would be the place to measure to for minimum needed clearance. He is having to fab up new crossmembers but there won't be one in that exact location. __________________ 1970 Blazer with a 400 sbc and 4" lift 1980 Pontiac Trans Am, 455 Oldsmobile 2012 Kawasaki Concours 14 Last edited by Yukon Jack; 01-29-2005 at 10:28 PM.

01-29-2005, 10:06 PM	#4
Yukon Jack Post Whore Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Rose Hill, KS, USA Posts: 12,684	I will have to get some updated pics of his truck. He has stretched the frame already as the Cummins uses a divorced transfer case and needs a bit more wheelbase. It will be a dually 4x4 with a dump bed. He is a contractor and this truck will be used on the job site and used to haul equipment. He has been doing some reinforcement of the frame lately to deal with the Cummins' torque. __________________ 1970 Blazer with a 400 sbc and 4" lift 1980 Pontiac Trans Am, 455 Oldsmobile 2012 Kawasaki Concours 14

01-30-2005, 07:09 AM	#6
4x4Poet Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: "Under Montana skies." Posts: 1,836	Y/J, I've considered doing this with my K20, but I'm concerned with the weight carrying capability of the 3/4 ton D44. Since your bud has a dually, is he using a higher strength front axle? I'm surprised he needed more frame length. What is the exact tranny & xfer case combo? And which CTD version? I'm just curious for my own contemplations, so feel free to pass. __________________ '71 GMC K20 Suburban, '71 GMC K10 Suburban, '72 Chevy C10 CST Suburban, '72 Chevy K20 clunker pickup.

01-30-2005, 10:08 AM	#7
Yukon Jack Post Whore Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Rose Hill, KS, USA Posts: 12,684	The engine, automatic transmission and transfer case all come from a Dodge pickup. I will find out what year. I know it says on the top of the engine 160 HP, 400 lb-ft and it is turbocharged. When he intially fit everything in place the rear driveshaft length was very short and he felt he needed to have more length. That was okay with him because his dump bed will be custom made. Yes it is a Dana 44 and I know he has his eyes out for a Dana 60 to remedy that potential problem. Jim, how about you just measure from the mid line of the engine crossmember to the top of the axle tube. That will be close enough for him. We are guessing stock will be about 5" to 6". __________________ 1970 Blazer with a 400 sbc and 4" lift 1980 Pontiac Trans Am, 455 Oldsmobile 2012 Kawasaki Concours 14

01-29-2005, 09:16 PM	#2
JimKshortstep4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Muskegon,MI,USA Posts: 6,026	Jack, I will be happy to get some measurements for you but I can't understand what he is looking for as the axle tubes are under the engine cradle. (The oil pan of course is over the cradle). The pumpkin sits to the side and the drive shaft is to the side of the oil pan. Jim

01-30-2005, 06:53 AM	#5
JimKshortstep4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Muskegon,MI,USA Posts: 6,026	Jack, If you can get a definition on what to measure, I will get you a measurement as we have a rolling chassis, (4x4) with the engine in it. Jim

01-30-2005, 10:17 AM	#8
Tx Firefighter Watch out for your cornhole ! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Azle, Texas Posts: 14,162	That would be a 12 valve mechanical pump Cummins engine. __________________ I'm on the Instagram- @Gearhead_Kevin

01-31-2005, 03:16 PM	#9
Yukon Jack Post Whore Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Rose Hill, KS, USA Posts: 12,684	ttt __________________ 1970 Blazer with a 400 sbc and 4" lift 1980 Pontiac Trans Am, 455 Oldsmobile 2012 Kawasaki Concours 14

01-31-2005, 05:29 PM	#10
JimKshortstep4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Muskegon,MI,USA Posts: 6,026	Jack, I am sorry for not getting back to you sooner, somehow I missed your last post. I measured my 71 Short box 4x4 since it is complete and has more weight on the springs. Measuring from the engine cradle to the oil pan, (centered ion the cradle), I get 5/8" . From under the cradle to the axle tube, I get 4 1/2". Adding up the measurements I get 5 1/4" from the tube to the oil pan, (5/8" + 1/8" (thickness of cradle) + 4 1/2"). If you need any more measurements let me know. I also have a bare 4x4 frame and running gear, (no motor). Jim

01-31-2005, 06:42 PM	#11
Yukon Jack Post Whore Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Rose Hill, KS, USA Posts: 12,684	Thanks Jim - that will help my friend. __________________ 1970 Blazer with a 400 sbc and 4" lift 1980 Pontiac Trans Am, 455 Oldsmobile 2012 Kawasaki Concours 14

01-31-2005, 06:57 PM	#12
Yukon Jack Post Whore Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Rose Hill, KS, USA Posts: 12,684	4x4Poet - my friend said the tranny is an Allison automoatic transmission out of a mid 80's Ford large school bus. He does not know what the bellhousing was from that he is using. The transfer case is a divorced unit out of a 72 Dodge pickup. I beleive it is an NP205 but I didn't look to make sure. Here are pics I took back in April of 04 when it was in the frame initially. Attached Images __________________ 1970 Blazer with a 400 sbc and 4" lift 1980 Pontiac Trans Am, 455 Oldsmobile 2012 Kawasaki Concours 14

02-01-2005, 12:34 AM	#13
4x4Poet Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: "Under Montana skies." Posts: 1,836	Wow! That's quite a tranny. No messin' around with strength issues. I like how your friend thinks big. He might need some custom springs to ensure proper front axle to oil pan clearance. I'd recommend Alcan Spring. Alcan could make springs based on the exact weight of the truck split into front and rear measurements. Looks like he'll have some vibration from the NP205 cradle being mounted on the frame with no bushings. A '70s IHC TravelAll's NP205 cradle & frame brackets fit a 67-72 K10/20 frame since the inside frame measurements are the same. I measured myself on my '71 K20 and '71 TravelAll. Then he'd have bushing cushioning. Just in case the vibration becomes too much even for a dump truck. BTW, I have been told by a shop that installs CTDs in GM trucks that my K20's HD44 will handle the weight of a CTD, but I'm not so sure. I'm also leary of the axle and R&P torque capacity, even if I upgrade the axles to 4340 inner and outer axles from Superior. Still, the shop owner regularly swaps CTDs into some of the many GM trucks with 3/4 ton D44s. For me, the jury is still out, even for a 12-valve CTD. Thanks for the pics. __________________ '71 GMC K20 Suburban, '71 GMC K10 Suburban, '72 Chevy C10 CST Suburban, '72 Chevy K20 clunker pickup. Last edited by 4x4Poet; 02-01-2005 at 12:49 AM.

02-01-2005, 08:37 AM	#14
Tx Firefighter Watch out for your cornhole ! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Azle, Texas Posts: 14,162	I have a 94 Dodge Cummins 1 ton 4x4 dually. When I went to the dealer to get a seal to repair a leak, the parts guy had to confirm whether my truck had a dana 44 or dana 60. Seems many of the 1 ton Dodge 4x4's with Cummins had Dana 44 in the mid 90's. Apparantly, the axle is strong enough, because they don't seem to fail under the Dodges. __________________ I'm on the Instagram- @Gearhead_Kevin

02-01-2005, 02:47 PM	#16
Tx Firefighter Watch out for your cornhole ! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Azle, Texas Posts: 14,162	I trust the Dodge parts man 100 percent. He's actually a board member here (67Sub). I met him here on the board and he is a dealership parts guy at the Dodge house by where I work. __________________ I'm on the Instagram- @Gearhead_Kevin



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