It's finally time - a new engine

[Jonboy]

If you are looking to buy an engine locally, check out Friendly or Young Chevrolet. They both buy engines by the train car load, and have the best deals. There is also a place off of Regal Row (I think it is www.goautocenter.com) that has some killer deals on crate engines also.

[mySAVIOReigns]

Financially, it's about a wash between doing it yourself and buying a crate engine...but IMHO crates are never EXACTLY the engine you want. Building your own you can make smart decisions on exactly the pieces you want.

You've got me there - all these ones that I'm looking at, it seems they get about 4/5 of the stuff I want, then something totally pointless or something that you ask "why?"

Thanks for the tips Billla, I'll PM you for that spreadsheet...

[72C203503ONTHETREE]

You may be able to build an engine youtself for the same price or cheaper but who will warranty your work if the engine blows soon afyer its running? The one real nice thing about the GM new crate engines is the warranty, if it blows you get a replacement. I am thinking of buying a new crate shortblock and add my own aluminum heads and top end parts. I am in the process of buying engine parts every pay check(twice a month) until I have everything needed to build a nice engine for the 73. Most of it will be from e bay or used depending on the parts.

[kevinr1970]

Originally Posted by cliffsta

Stock 305 (in 1980) made 135 HP and 235 TQ (I got one, I know) which isn't very stellar. Simply putting in a standard 350 would waaay up your power.

I've asked about this before but never got a satisfactory answer?
My 1986 Truck with a 350 is rated at ~180hp. The standard 350 crate is rated at 260hp. Is the rating for the truck "net" (at the wheel) or "gross" (at the flyweel). Seems like it would be net and the crate would be gross as they are rating it not driving any accessories or drive train????

There is a local dealer (Jet Chevrolet) that is supposed to be the place to go locally for crate engines and while talking to the guy on the phone he said the standard 350 I would be putting in my truck would be the same power as the one I am replacing. Unless I went with the HO 290hp engine.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by 72C203503ONTHETREE

You may be able to build an engine youtself for the same price or cheaper but who will warranty your work if the engine blows soon afyer its running? The one real nice thing about the GM new crate engines is the warranty, if it blows you get a replacement. I am thinking of buying a new crate shortblock and add my own aluminum heads and top end parts. I am in the process of buying engine parts every pay check(twice a month) until I have everything needed to build a nice engine for the 73. Most of it will be from e bay or used depending on the parts.

Try making a warranty claim on your crate engine with aftermaket heads and let us know how it goes Besides, at that point you have an 8.5:1 CR engine with $1500 worth of top-end on it...what's the point? You could build your own all-iron engine for less than what you'd pay for this setup that would make more power!

Seriously, I don't disagree that a crate engine is slightly lower risk overall, but I do think the risk of building your own engine is overblown. It just ain't that hard to do.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by kevinr1970

My 1986 Truck with a 350 is rated at ~180hp. The standard 350 crate is rated at 260hp. Is the rating for the truck "net" (at the wheel) or "gross" (at the flyweel). Seems like it would be net and the crate would be gross as they are rating it not driving any accessories or drive train????

Yes, the engine ratings for a car are SAE net and for crate engines they're HP/TQ at the flywheel. I was not able to find the specifics of the test configuration...but I have to assume that it'd done with headers, etc. Figure on ~20% powertrain loss...that number is really debatable, but it's a reasonably good rule of thumb.

Originally Posted by kevinr1970

There is a local dealer (Jet Chevrolet) that is supposed to be the place to go locally for crate engines and while talking to the guy on the phone he said the standard 350 I would be putting in my truck would be the same power as the one I am replacing. Unless I went with the HO 290hp engine.

You must be a Seattle guy Using the rule of thumb above, we can estimate that a 260 HP crate engine will make about 208 HP at the rear wheels. The 290 should be about 232..which IMHO is still not a big win for the money (+52 HP). And I've beat this to death, but the torque/hp curve for these engines is not truck-friendly IMHO.

[N2TRUX]

Billla you have a valid point on cost factors of crate vs build-ur-own. What you are not taking in to account is the knowledge that you have to do this.

I will assume you know of a competent machine shop that will build your short block. I will also assume you know what heads to put with what cam, manifold and carb. If you have that knowledge you can accomplish HP/TQ ratings as the same as a GM crate or better.

You can also save yourself some money along the way if you have time, tools and knowledge of how to bolt on the heads, manifold and carb.

Where you may have that knowledge, many people do not. Buying a GM crate gets you the results of hundreds of hours of dyno testing the various combinations of parts to get the most bang for the buck. They save the average consumer hundreds of dollars by not having to guess what combo to run or go with advice from someone that may or may not know what they are talking about.

The savings can be huge for most people....

[Billla]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

Billla you have a valid point on cost factors of crate vs build-ur-own. What you are not taking in to account is the knowledge that you have to do this.

I will assume you know of a competent machine shop that will build your short block. I will also assume you know what heads to put with what cam, manifold and carb. If you have that knowledge you can accomplish HP/TQ ratings as the same as a GM crate or better.

You can also save yourself some money along the way if you have time, tools and knowledge of how to bolt on the heads, manifold and carb.

Where you may have that knowledge, many people do not. Buying a GM crate gets you the results of hundreds of hours of dyno testing the various combinations of parts to get the most bang for the buck. They save the average consumer hundreds of dollars by not having to guess what combo to run or go with advice from someone that may or may not know what they are talking about.

The savings can be huge for most people....

I'll very respectfully disagree...somewhat and only on a couple of points I firmly believe that ANYONE can do a quality overhaul if they're willing to take the time to do it. Very few specialty tools are required, and the basic skills are within anyone's grasp. If you can change your oil and not screw it up, then you can rebuild an engine. I've walked a bunch of folks through this process and very rarely have I had to be a safety net.

I'll also push back on the crate engines, again. They do have hours of dyno testing, and if we were talking about these engines in a Nova or a Camaro I would heartily agree that they're a great choice. But these are generally not set up for a truck, i.e. they don't make power down low and they are always a compromise as they're not building an engine for YOU - they're building an engine for a market. What you end up with in many cases is a good, solid engine that's just not quite right for your particular application.

But there are a few points that I defnitely agree with. You do need a competent machine shop to do the work - but they're not all that hard to find and I'm sure in each community folks on this board can steer you in the right direction. Picking shortblock parts is very easy these days as there are so many quality "rebuild kits" from reputable vendors.

No question that picking the right parts is definitely a learned experience. However, in general the more conservative the build of the engine, the less risk there is in picking parts. At a build level of < 1 HP/CID it's pretty easy to make good choices, especially with some assistance and experience from folks in your local and online communities. There are also some great "power packages" now available for the top-end. Yes, if you're building something that's making more than that level of power you need (semi-) professional guidance and the risks are definitely higher. I'm doing my first GEN II LT1 build right now shooting for 1.2 HP/CID and I'm talking to a lot of people and asking a lot of questions as I go along. I'm willing to bet we could come up with some "rules of thumb" for parts selection for trucks and spec a few engines that are right on for our trucks - anyone interested?

So in summary, my points are:

• ANYONE can achieve a successful overhaul/rebuild if they're willing to invest in the process.
• Parts selection is a skill, not an art, and can be learned for build levels <= 1HP/CID.
• A crate engine will never be exactly what you want, and the common ones on the market are not built for our trucks
• N2TRUX is a really smart guy

In the end, it's a personal choice and everyone needs to assess if they really WANT to build their own engine. My intent here was just to lower the percieved bar for doing it and to encourage people that WANT to, to do it.

It's a great thread and hopefully is giving a well-rounded perspective of the pros/cons and risks so that people can make an informed decision.

[Bishops Trucks]

Hey Billla,
I'm sorry, but I disagree on one point. I bought a 350 H.O. Deluxe in 2000 and put it in my '71 2 wheel drive longbed with a T.H. 400 and a 12 bolt w/ 3:73 gears and that truck was very reliable and would haul ass down the road. Last year I put the motor in my '71 Shortbed 4X4 with a T.H. 350 and a 12 bolt w/ 4:11 gears and that truck runs just as good as the longbed does. 380 ft/lbs of torque works great in these trucks. As for building one, if you get a good reliable person to build up a shortblock and know everything in it, all one needs to do is call Summit Racing and talk to a tech and tell him what you have and that you need: heads, intake, carb, distributer and what ever else it will take to get it going and they will reserch and get you all the matching components you need to finish the motor. I've done this a couple times and have not been disapointed with the outcome. I'm not writing this to start an argument, I'm just stating my experiances I've had in the past.

[cell]

I was in a situation similar to yours about 6 months ago. I decided to go with a "long block", which is where I tear the engine apart (accessories, pumps, head, oil pan, etc) and then hand it off to the machine shop and let them handle the internals.

Just having the experience of tearing down that engine made me feel like I had a much better understanding of how everything worked. You can read all you want about equivalence ratios, thermodynamic efficiencies, etc, but its not until you actually touch a piston with your finger that it all seems to "click".

[Billla]

Originally Posted by Bishops Trucks

I'm not writing this to start an argument, I'm just stating my experiances I've had in the past.

No worries - it's a discussion, never an argument - and experience is what makes it real. I think we're all in agreement that there's no right answer, just a personal choice.

Your 3.73 and 4.11's change the picture quite a bit, and it sounds like you use the truck more like a car - do you tow, etc.? Those ratios mean that the torque coming in at a higher RPM makes sense for your application...and is more consistent with what the crate engines put out.

As for the shortblock ass'y by the shop...I still offer that's 4+ hours of shop time at $65+/hour that you can save doing it at home. Once the machine work is done, it's just mock-up and final ass'y. Most machine shops will admit that final ass'y is a PITA for them and mine actually gives me a discount on machine work because I do the intial teardown, get them the parts clean and with the plugs, etc. out and don't make them mock-up or do final ass'y. Interested in others' experience here, but mock-up and final ass'y for a complete engine can run upwards of $650. Yeah, it may take you 3x as long but you'll do it very carefully and well...and your time is free. Plus, that's 3x time in the garage, which is a good thing

Using Summit and others for parts selection is also a great point, another great resource in addition to local and online communities. I've found the cam vendors to also be a great resource, especially the CompCams folks.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by cell

I was in a situation similar to yours about 6 months ago. I decided to go with a "long block", which is where I tear the engine apart (accessories, pumps, head, oil pan, etc) and then hand it off to the machine shop and let them handle the internals.

Just having the experience of tearing down that engine made me feel like I had a much better understanding of how everything worked. You can read all you want about equivalence ratios, thermodynamic efficiencies, etc, but its not until you actually touch a piston with your finger that it all seems to "click".

So true There's also nothing like hearing an engine that you built come to life!

[Bishops Trucks]

Hey Billla,
It's good to have knowledgable and understanding folks you can talk to. The blue truck is the one it was in first which I never towed with and the Ochre is the one it is in now. I have never towed with it but I've had about a thousand pounds of tile and supplies in it at one time and I could still squeeze the pedal and pass people.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by Bishops Trucks

The blue truck is the one it was in first which I never towed with and the Ochre is the one it is in now. I have never towed with it but I've had about a thousand pounds of tile and supplies in it at one time and I could still squeeze the pedal and pass people.

Sa-wheet trucks!

[84 400]

Billa- you make some good points but so do the other members on here. the biggest thing i see is that the truck in question is in Daily driver duty and must there fore be relible. can most people build a reliable small block the first time ?? Sure! IS it hard to build a motor? Not at all if you ask me a automatic tranny or a computer contolled new car is way more complicated. however you can read about it and get a great bit of knowlage and most of the time enough to build a stout motor. However seeing as how he has never built a motor(correct me if i am wrong) and did not mention building it with a person who has experance i would tend to shy away in this case. Again it is not hard by anymeans however the first time can be alittle tricky and he may not notice somthing a seasoned builder would. not to mention finding a good shop to check the block out assuming he goes used. I would suggest go with a crate short block and maybe do the top end. then on the next one do the whole motor. or just go gm crate since it is a daily driver. i guess it depends on the budget. I am all for building your own and think it is fun and a great learning experance but, with out knowing his skills i would be hesitant to tell him to messs with his only transportation and risk extended down time. just a thought. BTW my SAv... have you ever rebuilt a motor? small 2 stroke or otherwise?

[Bishops Trucks]

Thanks Billla,
Ol' Blue is in a million pieces in storage waiting for my 3 year tour overseas to end (2009) so I can put in the 396 w/ M21 4-speed and a bunch of go fast goodies.
Hey Stephen,
Sorry, I'm not trying to highjack your thread.

[piecesparts]

I agree with Billa, a rebuild is not that hard. However, you do need to get inot some tools that you would normally not have around. They can be rented, but I am the kind of guy that believes the purchase of a tool (any tool) is a bonus, because it will be used again some day. You would need to get a torque wrench, an oil system priming tool, a piston ring band set and a cam driver set. The rest of the work is mostly done with hand tools. If you don't have an engine stand, then go to Harbor Freight and purchase a good one there.

I also suggest the buy a good 350 block and rebuild it, while using the one in your truck. That way you can set the engine up the way you want it, with out having to get it done in a week (because you need the truck) Take your time and CLEAN everything. Keep the area clean of all loose debris and learn about the simple tricks (plasti-gage, and cam lube types, etc...) Find a machine shop to do the honing and aligning of your block and go from there.

The 383 block in my truck cost me $75.00, I was ready to pay the average $175.00, but the guy had a good heart. The 350 blocks are plentiful and are easy to find, just ask the machine shop if they have some cores laying around. Watch out for the guy "on the street" or at a swap meet that seems to earger to sell the block. Before purchasing, have it checked out by the machine shop or by a friend that has no attachment to it and is knowledgable. There are definitely people that will sell the busted garbage to unsuspecting souls out there.

NOW for the most important thing. Buy quality parts, DO NOT,repeat DO NOT, go for the limited price for the Holidays items that some shops have on the FLYER type sales adds. For the most part, these parts are sub-quality and will not provide longevity in your motor. I have seen that done and it hurt the owner.

[mySAVIOReigns]

Hey no guys, it's fine - believe me, I'm learning a ton

Bishop, that is a very clean engine compartment - that's what I want mine to look like one day. I know an engine rebuilder, and while I don't think I'll have him build mine (maybe) he might have some parts I could get. That could help this process along. Still not sure if I'll have it bought or built, but I know when I have some time, I'll probably re-use that 305 on something.

Oh yea, forgot to say. My truck isn't really used for towing/heavy work - just a daily driver to/from school and work. Although, that doesn't mean it couldn't be I've done my fair share of heavy stuff

[84 400]

Originally Posted by piecesparts

I agree with Billa, a rebuild is not that hard. However, you do need to get inot some tools that you would normally not have around. They can be rented, but I am the kind of guy that believes the purchase of a tool (any tool) is a bonus, because it will be used again some day. You would need to get a torque wrench, an oil system priming tool, a piston ring band set and a cam driver set. The rest of the work is mostly done with hand tools. If you don't have an engine stand, then go to Harbor Freight and purchase a good one there.

I also suggest the buy a good 350 block and rebuild it, while using the one in your truck. That way you can set the engine up the way you want it, with out having to get it done in a week (because you need the truck) Take your time and CLEAN everything. Keep the area clean of all loose debris and learn about the simple tricks (plasti-gage, and cam lube types, etc...) Find a machine shop to do the honing and aligning of your block and go from there.

The 383 block in my truck cost me $75.00, I was ready to pay the average $175.00, but the guy had a good heart. The 350 blocks are plentiful and are easy to find, just ask the machine shop if they have some cores laying around. Watch out for the guy "on the street" or at a swap meet that seems to earger to sell the block. Before purchasing, have it checked out by the machine shop or by a friend that has no attachment to it and is knowledgable. There are definitely people that will sell the busted garbage to unsuspecting souls out there.

NOW for the most important thing. Buy quality parts, DO NOT,repeat DO NOT, go for the limited price for the Holidays items that some shops have on the FLYER type sales adds. For the most part, these parts are sub-quality and will not provide longevity in your motor. I have seen that done and it hurt the owner.

I agree with you 100% on the tools and the parts quality. Aswell as the block purchasing.

[mySAVIOReigns]

Hey guys, I thought of something else, while looking around.

I think mine is a 2 bolt, but I see a lot of 4 bolts. Is this easy to do, just add two more spots where it bolts on, or is this a hard project? Thanks

[SSC's76]

Originally Posted by mySAVIOReigns

Hey guys, I thought of something else, while looking around.

I think mine is a 2 bolt, but I see a lot of 4 bolts. Is this easy to do, just add two more spots where it bolts on, or is this a hard project? Thanks

They make a kit to install splayed 2 bolt caps, which are stronger then OE 4 bolt setups. If your still thinking of going through the 5.0 it's not worth the effort even in a 350 it's not worth the effort. Unless you want to push over 600hp?

The base 350 crate engine would be ideal for your truck and your situation. I have installed hundreds of them yes (HUNDREDS) of the GM crate engines and they work perfectly as replacments for tired engines. Cost and reliability wise you will not go wrong. The cam profile is slightly better then the stock cam that came from the factory in most 350 trucks. It will seem like a rocket compared to the good old VIN 4 engine thats sitting in your truck now. Avarage fuel economy can vary alot but it will at least get 12+ MPG depending on your tuning.

This 71 that has a GM base crate engine sitting in it with just an Edlecrap 1406 with no jetting work, parts store HEI and dual exh gets 17 MPG city. Granted I'm not 100% on Joses rear gear ratio 3.08 or 3.42 with the TH350 it still gets great mileage and has plenty of go juice.

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by Billla

......

So in summary, my points are:

• ANYONE can achieve a successful overhaul/rebuild if they're willing to invest in the process.
• Parts selection is a skill, not an art, and can be learned for build levels <= 1HP/CID.
• A crate engine will never be exactly what you want, and the common ones on the market are not built for our trucks
  
• N2TRUX is a really smart guy

In the end, it's a personal choice and everyone needs to assess if they really WANT to build their own engine. My intent here was just to lower the perceived bar for doing it and to encourage people that WANT to, to do it..

Most of your points are valid and as you stated that right or wrong depends on the person, their application, and it's intended use. I will say that while the majority of the motors may be targeted at cars due to torque figures that come in at a higher rpm, that's not all of them. As Bishops Trucks pointed out the HO 350 has a truck like power curve, as well as the 383.

Let me give you an example of why I chose to go with a GM crate motor. I looked at what I wanted to accomplish as an end result then analyzed all the possible choices. I wanted as much hp/tq as I could get and still run on regular unleaded. I also wanted a fuel management system that would perform well and look good doing it.

I considered the 350 HO, the Fastburn 385, and 383. I looked at all options for carbs such as single 4 barrel, two fours, and three deuces. Then I added all the fuel injection options I could find on the market and researched them.

When it came down to it I decided on the Ramjet 350. It had decent hp/tq rating at 350 hp and 400 tq that came on at a low rpm. It had a cool looking injection system that had been tuned and tested with thousands of dyno hours and a computer that was simple and reliable enough to be used in many marine applications.

More importantly I was able to make one call to Summit Racing and have it delivered to the shop for install in a week. I didn't have to deal with multiple parts sources and wait for everything to arrive before I could get started.

Initially I did spend more money than if I had pieced this together. In the end I saved a ton of money because the shop was able to drop the motor in and fire it up. It was a straightforward swap, with very little adjusting. There was no tuning or dialing in of parts at all.

Ok, this may not be the common scenario for average Joe truck owner. What is the common scenario is that most truck owners use these trucks as daily drivers. They need to get the motor swap done and be back on the road in a short period. They don't have a spare motor laying around to build in advance.

You can not do a rebuild unless in a short period unless you have a spare motor to build or you buy a long block. This puts your cost consideration very close to buying a complete crate motor.

Two very valid points you have are there is no replacing the thrill of firing up a motor that you have assembled yourself. The other very valid point you had, and I quote- "N2TRUX is a really smart guy "

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by mySAVIOReigns;

I think mine is a 2 bolt, but I see a lot of 4 bolts. Is this easy to do, just add two more spots where it bolts on, or is this a hard project? Thanks

Oh boy this could easily open up a whole new can of worms. If your motor is a 2 bolt main you can have it converted to 4 bolt but it is not worth it. Just so you understand exactly what that means is your crankshaft has main bearings that it rides on. The main bearing are captured by caps that bolt to the bottom of the block. Two bolt motors only have two bolts (one per side) that hold the caps down, and 4 bolt motors have 4 (2 per side)that hold the bearing cap down.

In most cases a two bolt motor will be just fine. If you are building a motor designed to be run at high rpm, supercharged, or nitrous injected the additional bolts are well advised to keep your crank in place....

[Billla]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

As Bishops Trucks pointed out the HO 350 has a truck like power curve, as well as the 383.

I'll respectfully disagree that the power curve on either of these is as truck friendly as something with a different cam, but rather than debate I just encourage folks to go look on the GMPP site and compare the charts.

http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/GMPerfor...l.jsp?engine=0

No pushback on the Ram Jet engine at all - it's sweeeeet Again, I'm not sure that an HP peak of 5000+ RPM is particularly truck friendly, but the torque curve is reasonably flat and of course EFI works magic in terms of driveability and fuel milage. But for comparison, I'll make 100+ ft-lbs more torque through 3500 RPM in the 355 I'm building for well under 1/2 the price. It's not a fair comparison, but heck... '-)

Completely agree that you can't beat a crate engine for quick - buy it, drop it and go. But GEN I 350 cores are dirt cheap (~$100) and you can build that while driving happily - both the engines I have on the stand right now are used engines being rebuilt while the truck/car they'll go into are driven every day. This adds a trivial amount to the cost in my experience.

I appreciate as always on this board the open, healthy and respectful debate.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

If your motor is a 2 bolt main you can have it converted to 4 bolt but it is not worth it. In most cases a two bolt motor will be just fine. If you are building a motor designed to be run at high rpm, supercharged, or nitrous injected the additional bolts are well advised to keep your crank in place....

completely. 4-bolt conversion is about $500, a brand new GM 4-bolt block is around $650 from your GM dealer. NOTE that the GM stock blocks have finished, stock bores...so they'll almost always need to be overbored at least .010