e85 ?

[rambler]

I agree with you guys, I've looked at a hybrid, with the extra costs and such, it doesnt save me any money,,, and the E85, same story, I would have to buy a newer rig and the milage does suffer so again no savings for me.. I want to support our local and keep the money here in the states, but they need to start helping us out a bit as well, E85 from corn, there is not enough to grow to make a impact on oil, and it would drive all other costs up. I've done the math, and buying a new car, will cost me much more then the savings I would get in maintance and milage so I'm still stuck with my old truck, and my old dodge neon... not to mention, I cant afford the payments!

[eedgell]

Longhorn Man Again!!!!

[scoot]

forget e85 too much work to do in order to use it. bio butanol seems to be the best answer to alternative fuels that i have found. since you wouldn't have to make any modifications to use it. but until manufactures decide what they are going to do were stuck with what is at the pump. so i guess ill have to go efi to improve my gas costs for now

[Longhorn Man]

another thing no one has mentioned, this will make your corn cost more... and your beef. Already happening a little.

[GREASEMONKEY72]

i agree with Longhorn Man

just food for thought but it takes 2 gal of alky to eqaul 1gal of gasoline

[Simonstrucker]

Propane, cng, lpg, is cheap they used it in the past crisis. An research on it like loss of mpg and so forth. Please chime in as I think that is the way I might go.

[eedgell]

Not only does it make the cost of corn and beef go up, but dont forget that fossil is used to produce these other fuels, and it takes at current, more fossil fuel to produce these other fuels than they give us back. Dog chasing its tail if you ask me. Fossil fuel is the engine of our economy, not much is produced with out it.

[shortbed70]

The one question I have is does the e85 blend with regular gas or do the new vehicles have a way of separating the two? I just seen I can get some in topeka.

[Longhorn Man]

e85 IS a blend of regular gas, and *man made fuel*. So if you pull up with 10 gallons of normal gas, and you top off with e85, then you'll effectivly have something like e40 or something like that.

[shortbed70]

E40 DATS A GOOD ONE COACH ... Cool thats what I needed to know. Thanks.

[Scott68-93-97]

It all sounds good but will never work, we make plastics and rubber from byproducts of refining oil, bio diesel is another good concept but still they only sell D95 and D85 which is 5 and 15% veggie cooker oil and the rest diesel.My other ? is why does diesel cost so much since its cheap to make and the only thing that they pollute is NOx and particulates and now they have tech to turn that into water vapor. Politcially driven I guess, how would they have the money to run for office if they didn't have there hands in the oil mans pockets. I think Propane is the way to go it also features 105 octane, is efficiant and australlia's been using it for 20+ years. On Hot Rod mag and the TV show they built a naturally aspirated propane small block pushing 1200 horses, Plus Hank Hill will definatly be happy. Natural metane is another good fuel but dangerous to mine under the ocean floor excpecially if a pocket explodes while drilling.

Its all a good thought and I do agree keeping the dollars in the US is important but it will never happen until there are some major changes in the GOV. Other countrys are making huge head way in alternative fuels, and were going to be at the back of that pack if something doesn't change.

[kbs71]

I was in Argentina a couple of months back and the guy that was my contact down there was running propane in his 2004 Ford Explorer. He said the inital setup cost him @ $2600.00 USD and it paid for itself within a year. Thats one thing to think of.
Probably the biggest driver of prices is the fact that we don't have enough refineries to change crude into kerosene(Desiel, Jet fuel, etc) or Gasoline. You can thank your local Environmentalist for that. They fought long and hard for the past few decades to ensure that no new refineries were built in the US. So now the refineries are working over their capacity to produce refined crude and they aren't being maintained the way they should. Consequently this achieves a less efficent product, higher prices all that.
It's all political, with the big oil companies, OPEC, car manufacturers, refiners and all our favorites "politicians", aka thieves that we have let into our houses. Wanting more money stuffed into their pockets... Whoo I better stop before my blood pressure goes up.
Ethenol is nothing but more politics, another way the movers and shakers in DC can make a buck off of all of us by lying about the benifits of ethenol when in reality, it's a poor burning fuel (no matter what the octane rateing is), cost more to manufacture that "normal" gas (at least the way "our" politicians want to do it. by using "CORN"). there are so many better resources to make alternative fuels from than converting corn sugars into fuel.
Check out most of the car manufacturers web sites that have hybrid autos, check their gas milage against one of their smaller 4 cylinder cars. The newer 4 bangers are getting beter gas milage thhan the hybrids are....wow, thats something.

OK like I said before enough of my ranting. I'm going to bed and then tomorrow morning I'm going to get up, go to work and watch all the things I work on burn up millions of gallons of crude oil.

Viva la' dinos....

[mrein3]

Originally Posted by kbs71

stuff deleted...
Check out most of the car manufacturers web sites that have hybrid autos, check their gas milage against one of their smaller 4 cylinder cars. The newer 4 bangers are getting beter gas milage thhan the hybrids are....wow, thats something.
...stuff deleted

Shhhh.....
That is a secret. Very few people know that it takes 5 or MORE years for a hybrid to pay back in mileage the premium you pay for the car. And if your battery dies in that time and it isn't under warranty, you have another premium to pay to make the car run again.

Another secret is that you can buy a domestic car that gets good mileage and lasts a long time. I bought a 1994 Ford Escort brand new on January 14th of 1994. Since that day I've been getting 34-36 mpg in the winter and 37-39 mpg in the summer. That poor car now has 275,xxx miles and is scheduled to be replaced in the next year. I have requirements for its replacement.
1. American made, AMERICAN BRAND. Quit fooling yourselves people. A jap car is a jap car even if they are made by some underpaid American in the deep south.
2. 30mpg MINIMUM highway.
3. FlexFuel from the factory. Right now E85 is a waste of money but you never know what the people in St. Paul and Washington DC are going to do to us in the future.

Being an engineer I do crazy things like research the car I want to buy before I buy it. I recently did a cost analysis of the EPA stated mileage ratings for a 2007 Chevy Impala, 3.5l, flex fuel vehicle. There is less energy in a gallon of E85 than in a gallon of regular unleaded. It is obvious by looking at the stated fuel mileage ratings. The Impala is said to get 31mpg highway on gas, 24mpg highway on corn squeezings. Now factor in the price of E85 verses gas. Here in MN you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a station that sells E85. The price is artifically (ie you subsidize it with taxes) held to approximately $0.40 below the price of unleaded regular. So when regular gas is $3.29 and E85 2.89 you get 9.4 MILES/DOLLAR on gas and only 8.3 MILES/DOLLAR on E85. Your throwing money away.

However, if gas every gets down to $1.40/gallon, assuming E85 is subsidized down to $1.00/gallon, the numbers turn around. You'd get 22.1 mp$ on regular and 24 mp$ on E85.

That is the only reason I can see to buy an E85 car.

Minnesota is a leader in E85 production. It is talked about all the time. Why do you think corn got up to $4/bushel recently?

Here is an interesting fact. If we take ALL the corn produced here in the US, and turn it into E85, we'll come up with 20% of the fuel needed and go down in history as the only society to ever burn all its food crop.

How much will beef cost then? Its already high because the farmers can't afford the corn to feed out their steers.

Here is another fact. It takes 9 gallons of water during the process to make one gallon of E85. That is why there isn't any E85 on the left coast. You're all drinking out of the same river and it is already dry by the time it reaches the border. How are you going to hang a bunch of E85 plants off of that? The leading builder of E85 plants here in MN has already turned down building plants where the water supply isn't there.

[67ChevyRedneck]

While I agree with Andy's comments, I DO hope E85 sticks around.

It gets a bad fuel mileage rap (as mentioned before) because the compression isn't high enough in new flex fuel motors to effectively use the E85 because the vehicle has to be capable of running on 87 gas as well.

There are 3 E85 stations within 10 miles of where I live and another about 15 miles away. Around here it was 5 cents cheaper than gas, it's now 10 cents cheaper.

The reason I hope it stays... someday gas will be gone/close to gone. If mainstream cars go to whatever's next (hydrogen? whatever) E85 would be a viable option for us hot rodders. Some steel fuel line, tank, and carb and you're good to go! I can't imagine how much a hydrogen or whatever?? conversion may be??

Too many questions, but I think E85 should be more widespread.

Corn is actually one of the most inefficient materials to use for E85. Switch grass yields MUCH MUCH more fuel per acre than corn.

[Hook'em]

I am waiting for a flux capacitor conversion, then I can burn everyday household garbage for fuel. Saw it in a movie once.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Originally Posted by Hook'em

I am waiting for a flux capacitor conversion, then I can burn everyday household garbage for fuel. Saw it in a movie once.

That was "Mr. Fusion" the flux capacitor would allow you to buy a 67 C-10 brand new

As far as getting up to 88 mph.... back when my 67 had the 250 and 3 speed, good luck with that

[71tahoe]

Originally Posted by mrein3

...

Here is an interesting fact. If we take ALL the corn produced here in the US, and turn it into E85, we'll come up with 20% of the fuel needed and go down in history as the only society to ever burn all its food crop.

...

How about reducing our dependence on foreign oil by redirecting the food we would send to the Middle East into E85 production?

Originally Posted by 67ChevyRedneck

While I agree with Andy's comments, I DO hope E85 sticks around.

It gets a bad fuel mileage rap (as mentioned before) because the compression isn't high enough in new flex fuel motors to effectively use the E85 because the vehicle has to be capable of running on 87 gas as well.

There are 3 E85 stations within 10 miles of where I live and another about 15 miles away. Around here it was 5 cents cheaper than gas, it's now 10 cents cheaper.

The reason I hope it stays... someday gas will be gone/close to gone. If mainstream cars go to whatever's next (hydrogen? whatever) E85 would be a viable option for us hot rodders. Some steel fuel line, tank, and carb and you're good to go! I can't imagine how much a hydrogen or whatever?? conversion may be??

Too many questions, but I think E85 should be more widespread.

Corn is actually one of the most inefficient materials to use for E85. Switch grass yields MUCH MUCH more fuel per acre than corn.

I thought I was the only one that read that about using grass. I believe E85 has a future and may be a springboard to something better but I still can't afford to use it.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Ethanol Quick Facts

* In 2005, the U.S. produced about 4 billion gallons of ethanol from corn grain, equaling approximately 2% of the 140 billion gallons of gasoline consumed.
* Ethanol is widely used as a fuel additive. The oxygen contained in ethanol improves gasoline combustibility.
* The Energy Policy Act of 2005 has established a renewable fuels standard which requires using 7.5 billion gallons of ethanol by 2012.
* E85 (85% ethanol and 15% gasoline blend) can be used as a substitute for gasoline in vehicles that have been modified to use E85.
* Energy content of E85 is 70% that of gasoline, so about 1.4 gallons of E85 are needed to displace one gallon of gasoline.
* Starch in corn grain is readily degraded into glucose sugar molecules that are fermented to ethanol. The complex structural carbohydrates in cellulosic biomass are more difficult to break down, and they yield a mix of glucose and other sugar molecules that are not as efficiently converted to ethanol.
* An acre of corn generates about 4.5 tons of grain; 66% (3 tons) is starch that can be converted to 400 gallons of ethanol. Ethanol yield could be increased to roughly 700 gallons per acre by using corn stover (stalks and leaves) in addition to corn grain.
* Potential energy crops include perennial grasses like switchgrass or woody crops such as fast growing poplar. For these crops, average annual yield per acre is about 5 dry tons of cellulosic biomass; at a current conversion rate of 65 gallons per dry ton, an acre generates about 325 of gallons of ethanol. Goals include increasing biomass yield to 10-15 dry tons per acre and ethanol yield to 80-100 gallons per dry ton of biomass.

[67ChevyRedneck]

The amount of ethanol produced and the energy content of that fuel can vary widely depending on what feedstock is used for its production. There are two main factors that must be considered when comparing ethanol produced from different sources: fuel yield per acre per year and net energy yield. Sugar beets, which are used to produce the majority of France's ethanol, yield just over 700 gallons of ethanol per acre. Brazil's sugarcane produces 662 gallons of ethanol per acre. Switchgrass, a tall prairie grass native to the US that yields over 1,000 gallons per acre, more than 3 times the yield of corn. Recent research conducted at the University of Illinois has shown that miscanthus, a tall reed like grass, can produce as much as 1,500 gallons of ethanol per acre.

http://www.cleanhouston.org/energy/f...s/ethanol2.htm

Please remember everyone, that this is a new technology, there's still a lot more to learn about it's pro's/cons.