engine question - The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network

messed up c-10 · 12-19-2002, 05:17 PM

Do Cylinder Heads need to be torqued when I put them back on my 305? Also does Autozone sell lifters?

**swervin ervin** · 12-19-2002, 05:25 PM

Yes and yes. Buy a Chiltons manual. It will come in real handy.

Tom · 12-19-2002, 06:05 PM

Buy a chiltons and a haynes. Niether one is totally correct and niether one has all the info you'll eventually want. Even with both I have problems finding stuff somtimes.

**old Rusty C10** · 12-19-2002, 06:18 PM

the way i learned to do heads you actually torque them down three times. and in a specific order of torquing down the bolts too. You definately need to get a Chiltons Book or a Haynes Manual or a Motors Manual, and make sure you have a QUALITY torque wrench. If ya screw this up youll be doin it again cause the gasket will fail or worse.
In the NY area Auto Zone sells lifters, but they are a special order item
Hope that helped

86SILVERADO · 12-19-2002, 10:18 PM

Hey man, no offense but if you are asking if you need to torque down head bolts you probably would be better off finding a friend or an understanding mechanic to help you out with reassembly. If you just had a valve job done or whatever you don't want to go messing things up now. Take it from someone who has made every stupid mistake in the book. There are many many things that you can do wrong when reinstalling heads. You won't have a prayer with the chiltons or haynes manuals either. Seriously my only intention here is to save a fellow GM freak some precious time, money, and aggravation. I am a 100 percent do it yourselfer, but you have to start somewhere. I was fortunate enought to have an uncle who was/is a damn good old school mechanic. He saved my ass more times than I can count. I wish you the best of luck, just find someone who can help you through it. The small block chevy is a damn good place to start. Just to give you an example. Say you didn't drain the coolant properly before you pulled the heads, a little dribbles down into the head bolt holes, you go to reinstall the head bolts and whoops, you crack the block. Welcome to the wonderful world of shade tree mechanicing. Just so you don't think that I am a total jerk. Here are some fine points. Clean both the head and block mating surfaces as if you were going to eat off them, use a good solvent, wipe clean and dry. I once got a head for a volvo back from the machine shop and it was sitting ontop of the opened gasket kit, head gasket was soaked with oil. Even better one: Recently got a set of heads (SBC) back from a reputable machine shop in the area and three of the springs had been put in cockeyed so that the edge of the springs were riding up on the raised edge around the flat area where they are supposed to sit. If I hadn't caught this the worst case scenario could have been a snapped cam. Any way clean those head bolts the same way, those babies should gleam when you are finished with them. Get rid of all 10 of your bent pushrods and good luck finding a set of straight ones ( just be thankful that you have hydraulic lifters). There is only one way I know of to Properly adjust the lifters and that is with the engine running. Trying to use numbers of turns and lash and all that crap when the truck has been sitting for who knows how long and half the lifters have bled down and the other half are pumped up is just a waste of time, Maybe someone has a better (or cleanlier) method but what I do is I just fire it up and listen to every lifter. If it is making noise I sock it down until it stops rattling and give it maybe 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. If it is not rattling loosen it until it does then tighten 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. when you're done all you have to do is clean up the puddle of oil that has leaked out of the back side of the heads. By the way the book that you really need is HPbooks "How To Rebuild You're Small Block Chevy" . The manuals can only get you so far however. Good luck my man.

Norris

neonlarry · 12-20-2002, 01:22 AM

Be careful with the oil dripping on hot headers when you are adjusting the valves. It hasn't happened to me, but I know some people who had a fire from that.

86SILVERADO · 12-20-2002, 01:41 PM

You are right Neonlarry. I usually rig up a piece of tin foil back there to catch the drips because I don't really enjoy clouds of smoke billowing up into my face while I am tweaking those rocker nuts.

Norris

**swervin ervin** · 12-20-2002, 06:22 PM

It's crazy to adjust lifters with the engine running. I will not make a big mess on my engine, at all. This is out of the question for me. If you install a new cam, you damn sure better hope your lifters don't need adjusting when you start it up. If they do, you are in for a big surprise in a month or so.

I use the firing order method, which may be a little far fetched to some of you, but it works and works flawlessly. So far, I've never had to go back and readjust anything. It also don't matter if the lifter is pumped up or not. They do have springs in them you know.

http://www.73-87.com/garage/valvlash.htm

86SILVERADO · 12-20-2002, 07:49 PM

You're right swervin. I always use firing order to adjust them initially, but I always fine tune the adjustment while the engine is running. This way I am absolutely sure that all lifters have pumped up properly and that nothing is too tight or too loose. You can even do it so that all pushrods are rotating at the same speed so you know that you have equal pressure all round. My point is that an even half or full turn all around will only work best if everything else in the valve train is uniform. Just my crazy opinion. That is a nice link by the way. I hope messed up c-10 checks it out. later, and have a happy holiday.

Norris

**swervin ervin** · 12-20-2002, 08:37 PM

I hope you didn't take what I said the wrong way. I wasn't pointing fingers. Not my style.

My point was only that hydraulic lifters are forgiving. It's not as critical as solids. They have a spring in them to hold the lifter up even if they don't have any oil in them. The pumping up part, IMO, only pertains to when the engine is running. Doing it with it not running, the firing order way, it assures you the lifter is dead center of the heal of the cam. The absolute lowest point, no lift at all. Turning it down while spinning or jiggling the pushrod to the fine point of when it first makes contact with the rocker, will in no way have any effect of the lifter needing to be pumped up, since you haven't pushed down on the lifter yet. Once this fine point is found, go another 1/2 turn and forget it. Move on to the next one. I have went back and did it again with the engine running just to see. I carefully counted turns when backing off to get it to rattle. Guess what? 1/2 turn exactly. I checked every lifter just to make sure. They all were the same.

So to why mess with it? Or, why make a mess? I have a set of old valve covers with the center cut out just for this. It keeps oil from running down the side of the block and headers, but it won't stop oil from squirting all over the fender wells. You can buy the little clips to stick on the rocker tip to help this though.

But, this is only my opinion and the way I do it. I wasn't in any way saying you were wrong. Either way works just as good as the other. This is one of those things like should I use ported or manifold vacuum for my vacuum advance. Ask a hundred people and you'll probably get fifty who say ported and fifty who say manifold.

Also, a very merry Christmas to you too. I hope Santa brings you lots of toys for the truck.

86SILVERADO · 12-20-2002, 09:02 PM

Thanks for the reply Mike. No hard feelings here. There definately is more than one way to skin a cat. Hope Santa is good to you too.

Norris

By the way, I am not very internet savvy. What does "IMO" mean?
I keep seeing this in alot of the posts.

**swervin ervin** · 12-20-2002, 09:22 PM

In My Opinion.

IMHO means In My Humble Opinion.

messed up c-10 · 12-21-2002, 12:47 PM

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm probably going to start on my truck on Monday since there is no school. Before I take off the Cyl. Head I planed on checking all my pushrods to make sure they wern't bent then move on the the head if I needed too. I have a Haynes manual and another book about building a small block engine that will probably come in handy. The reason I am doing it myself is that I don't have alot of money and couldn't afford to send it back into the shop. As I have said before I'm only keeping the 305 on life support until I get the 383.

**swervin ervin** · 12-22-2002, 08:44 PM

No offended at all. You did something wrong. I know for sure there's nothing wrong with my procedure.

If you followed my procedure to a tee, now way it could be 5 turns too much. I hate to disagree with you, but you messed up some where.

I just did this on my engine last week after changing head gaskets. Worked great as usual.

gchemist · 12-22-2002, 10:57 PM

I have a factory service manual for my '83 and it is no doubt better than any service manual I could buy at a parts store. I got mine from www.ebaymotors.com too.

69c10stepside · 12-24-2002, 01:39 AM

Hey guys, I set my lifters with the engine running.. with no major mess.. they have clip on guards that clip over the spot where the oil come out.. all you have to worry about is the little bit of oil that bulids up in the middle of the head that can run over onto the header... if somebody else said this and i didnt see it sorry

12-19-2002, 05:17 PM	#1
messed up c-10 RHCP afficianado Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: McLoud, OK Posts: 789	engine question Do Cylinder Heads need to be torqued when I put them back on my 305? Also does Autozone sell lifters? __________________ ~Ryan~ 89 S-10 Blazer with a 4.3L 96 Ford Crown Vic P71 4.6L V8. This car rocks. Here are some links to some good music. Jack Johnson Donavon Frankenreiter

12-19-2002, 05:25 PM	#2
swervin ervin You get what you pay for Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Cherryville, NC Posts: 4,798	Yes and yes. Buy a Chiltons manual. It will come in real handy. __________________ Mike 1985 Chevy C-10

12-19-2002, 06:05 PM	#3
Tom driving is in my blood Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 5,713	Buy a chiltons and a haynes. Niether one is totally correct and niether one has all the info you'll eventually want. Even with both I have problems finding stuff somtimes. __________________ -78 c10 short/step: 388cid, M20, 5/5 drop, lots more. Playtoy and first vehicle. -98 c1500 x-cab: 5.7L, 17" rims, 5/6 drop, flowmaster, helper bags,NBS rear disk brakes. -02 Suburban 4x4: leveled front -CBR600F4i, CBR600RR, CBR1000RR, and standup skis DISCLAIMER: I cant spell for the life of me.

12-19-2002, 06:18 PM	#4
old Rusty C10 Robert Olson Transport Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: recent transplant to NC USA Posts: 20,277	cylinder heads the way i learned to do heads you actually torque them down three times. and in a specific order of torquing down the bolts too. You definately need to get a Chiltons Book or a Haynes Manual or a Motors Manual, and make sure you have a QUALITY torque wrench. If ya screw this up youll be doin it again cause the gasket will fail or worse. In the NY area Auto Zone sells lifters, but they are a special order item Hope that helped __________________ Bob 1951 International running on a squarebody chassis "If a man's worth is judged by the people he associates himself with, then i am the richest man in the world knowing some of the fine people of this board" http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...t.php?f=25&a=9 (you can review the site rules here!) PM Me for your vehicle/parts hauling needs in the North East US or see my Facebook page Robert Olson Transport Live each day to the fullest.. you never know when fate is going to pull the rug out from under you... I hate cancer!!

12-19-2002, 10:18 PM	#5
86SILVERADO Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hills of Western Mass Posts: 626	Hey man, no offense but if you are asking if you need to torque down head bolts you probably would be better off finding a friend or an understanding mechanic to help you out with reassembly. If you just had a valve job done or whatever you don't want to go messing things up now. Take it from someone who has made every stupid mistake in the book. There are many many things that you can do wrong when reinstalling heads. You won't have a prayer with the chiltons or haynes manuals either. Seriously my only intention here is to save a fellow GM freak some precious time, money, and aggravation. I am a 100 percent do it yourselfer, but you have to start somewhere. I was fortunate enought to have an uncle who was/is a damn good old school mechanic. He saved my ass more times than I can count. I wish you the best of luck, just find someone who can help you through it. The small block chevy is a damn good place to start. Just to give you an example. Say you didn't drain the coolant properly before you pulled the heads, a little dribbles down into the head bolt holes, you go to reinstall the head bolts and whoops, you crack the block. Welcome to the wonderful world of shade tree mechanicing. Just so you don't think that I am a total jerk. Here are some fine points. Clean both the head and block mating surfaces as if you were going to eat off them, use a good solvent, wipe clean and dry. I once got a head for a volvo back from the machine shop and it was sitting ontop of the opened gasket kit, head gasket was soaked with oil. Even better one: Recently got a set of heads (SBC) back from a reputable machine shop in the area and three of the springs had been put in cockeyed so that the edge of the springs were riding up on the raised edge around the flat area where they are supposed to sit. If I hadn't caught this the worst case scenario could have been a snapped cam. Any way clean those head bolts the same way, those babies should gleam when you are finished with them. Get rid of all 10 of your bent pushrods and good luck finding a set of straight ones ( just be thankful that you have hydraulic lifters). There is only one way I know of to Properly adjust the lifters and that is with the engine running. Trying to use numbers of turns and lash and all that crap when the truck has been sitting for who knows how long and half the lifters have bled down and the other half are pumped up is just a waste of time, Maybe someone has a better (or cleanlier) method but what I do is I just fire it up and listen to every lifter. If it is making noise I sock it down until it stops rattling and give it maybe 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. If it is not rattling loosen it until it does then tighten 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. when you're done all you have to do is clean up the puddle of oil that has leaked out of the back side of the heads. By the way the book that you really need is HPbooks "How To Rebuild You're Small Block Chevy" . The manuals can only get you so far however. Good luck my man. Norris __________________ 86 Silverado C10 back to 305 power! 67 C30 Dually Dump, with 350 transplant, Rockhauler 05 Duramax 3500 "If at first you don't succeed, try a bigger hammer" Member of the 1-Ton club!

12-20-2002, 01:22 AM	#6
neonlarry Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Vacaville, CA Posts: 2,746	Be careful with the oil dripping on hot headers when you are adjusting the valves. It hasn't happened to me, but I know some people who had a fire from that. __________________ 70 C/10 Light Red 350/TH350, HEI, Duals w/40 series Flows, 91 seat, LED taillights 99 Pontiac S/C GTP, SLP Ram Air hood, GMPP Konis & springs 95 Neon ACR, MP PCM, AFX UDP, 3.0 CAI

12-20-2002, 01:41 PM	#7
86SILVERADO Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hills of Western Mass Posts: 626	You are right Neonlarry. I usually rig up a piece of tin foil back there to catch the drips because I don't really enjoy clouds of smoke billowing up into my face while I am tweaking those rocker nuts. Norris

12-20-2002, 06:22 PM	#8
swervin ervin You get what you pay for Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Cherryville, NC Posts: 4,798	It's crazy to adjust lifters with the engine running. I will not make a big mess on my engine, at all. This is out of the question for me. If you install a new cam, you damn sure better hope your lifters don't need adjusting when you start it up. If they do, you are in for a big surprise in a month or so. I use the firing order method, which may be a little far fetched to some of you, but it works and works flawlessly. So far, I've never had to go back and readjust anything. It also don't matter if the lifter is pumped up or not. They do have springs in them you know. http://www.73-87.com/garage/valvlash.htm __________________ Mike 1985 Chevy C-10

12-20-2002, 07:49 PM	#9
86SILVERADO Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hills of Western Mass Posts: 626	You're right swervin. I always use firing order to adjust them initially, but I always fine tune the adjustment while the engine is running. This way I am absolutely sure that all lifters have pumped up properly and that nothing is too tight or too loose. You can even do it so that all pushrods are rotating at the same speed so you know that you have equal pressure all round. My point is that an even half or full turn all around will only work best if everything else in the valve train is uniform. Just my crazy opinion. That is a nice link by the way. I hope messed up c-10 checks it out. later, and have a happy holiday. Norris __________________ 86 Silverado C10 back to 305 power! 67 C30 Dually Dump, with 350 transplant, Rockhauler 05 Duramax 3500 "If at first you don't succeed, try a bigger hammer" Member of the 1-Ton club!

12-20-2002, 08:37 PM	#10
swervin ervin You get what you pay for Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Cherryville, NC Posts: 4,798	I hope you didn't take what I said the wrong way. I wasn't pointing fingers. Not my style. My point was only that hydraulic lifters are forgiving. It's not as critical as solids. They have a spring in them to hold the lifter up even if they don't have any oil in them. The pumping up part, IMO, only pertains to when the engine is running. Doing it with it not running, the firing order way, it assures you the lifter is dead center of the heal of the cam. The absolute lowest point, no lift at all. Turning it down while spinning or jiggling the pushrod to the fine point of when it first makes contact with the rocker, will in no way have any effect of the lifter needing to be pumped up, since you haven't pushed down on the lifter yet. Once this fine point is found, go another 1/2 turn and forget it. Move on to the next one. I have went back and did it again with the engine running just to see. I carefully counted turns when backing off to get it to rattle. Guess what? 1/2 turn exactly. I checked every lifter just to make sure. They all were the same. So to why mess with it? Or, why make a mess? I have a set of old valve covers with the center cut out just for this. It keeps oil from running down the side of the block and headers, but it won't stop oil from squirting all over the fender wells. You can buy the little clips to stick on the rocker tip to help this though. But, this is only my opinion and the way I do it. I wasn't in any way saying you were wrong. Either way works just as good as the other. This is one of those things like should I use ported or manifold vacuum for my vacuum advance. Ask a hundred people and you'll probably get fifty who say ported and fifty who say manifold. Also, a very merry Christmas to you too. I hope Santa brings you lots of toys for the truck. __________________ Mike 1985 Chevy C-10

12-20-2002, 09:02 PM	#11
86SILVERADO Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hills of Western Mass Posts: 626	Thanks for the reply Mike. No hard feelings here. There definately is more than one way to skin a cat. Hope Santa is good to you too. Norris By the way, I am not very internet savvy. What does "IMO" mean? I keep seeing this in alot of the posts. __________________ 86 Silverado C10 back to 305 power! 67 C30 Dually Dump, with 350 transplant, Rockhauler 05 Duramax 3500 "If at first you don't succeed, try a bigger hammer" Member of the 1-Ton club! Last edited by 86SILVERADO; 12-20-2002 at 09:08 PM.

12-20-2002, 09:22 PM	#12
swervin ervin You get what you pay for Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Cherryville, NC Posts: 4,798	In My Opinion. IMHO means In My Humble Opinion. __________________ Mike 1985 Chevy C-10

12-21-2002, 12:47 PM	#13
messed up c-10 RHCP afficianado Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: McLoud, OK Posts: 789	Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm probably going to start on my truck on Monday since there is no school. Before I take off the Cyl. Head I planed on checking all my pushrods to make sure they wern't bent then move on the the head if I needed too. I have a Haynes manual and another book about building a small block engine that will probably come in handy. The reason I am doing it myself is that I don't have alot of money and couldn't afford to send it back into the shop. As I have said before I'm only keeping the 305 on life support until I get the 383. __________________ ~Ryan~ 89 S-10 Blazer with a 4.3L 96 Ford Crown Vic P71 4.6L V8. This car rocks. Here are some links to some good music. Jack Johnson Donavon Frankenreiter

12-22-2002, 08:44 PM	#14
swervin ervin You get what you pay for Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Cherryville, NC Posts: 4,798	No offended at all. You did something wrong. I know for sure there's nothing wrong with my procedure. If you followed my procedure to a tee, now way it could be 5 turns too much. I hate to disagree with you, but you messed up some where. I just did this on my engine last week after changing head gaskets. Worked great as usual. __________________ Mike 1985 Chevy C-10

12-22-2002, 10:57 PM	#15
gchemist BAD BOW-Silverado XST Join Date: May 2000 Location: Senior Member from Austin, TX Posts: 6,431	I have a factory service manual for my '83 and it is no doubt better than any service manual I could buy at a parts store. I got mine from www.ebaymotors.com too. __________________ Gerardo a.k.a. Mad Chemist Silverado XST videos



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12-24-2002, 01:39 AM	#16
69c10stepside Large Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northwest Arkansas Posts: 747	Hey guys, I set my lifters with the engine running.. with no major mess.. they have clip on guards that clip over the spot where the oil come out.. all you have to worry about is the little bit of oil that bulids up in the middle of the head that can run over onto the header... if somebody else said this and i didnt see it sorry __________________ 1989 GMC C1500 ECSB 1972 Gmc Jimmy 1972 Chevy C10 SWB Sold

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