whats the deal with these diesel engines

[shrtbx]

I havent really payed attention to diesel engines much. I always heard they were slow and always had lots of problems. But yesterday i saw, for the second time a diesel engined vehicle dust a hi performance car. It was actually an old impala dusting of all things a lamborgini. Now am i missing something here? Tons of power and torque along with great gas mileage. I did notice parts are sky high on the motors, would that be a discouraging reason why people arent using them? So far looking through some posts on here its kind of 50/50. Either people love them or hate them. What do some of you think. Would it be worth it to stick in a new style diesel engine in my 86?

[Zoomad75]

If diesel fuel was less than the cost of regular gasoline, maybe. Problem is now one of the biggest +'s was less fuel cost to go along with the fuel economy. Thats no longer a factor.

Then add the complexity of a "new" style diesel. The cost of the engine alone is extremely high. Then look at what you would need for a transmission to handle the torque output. I can tell you this, a 6.2 or 6.5 with a banks sidewinder turbo fills the engine bay making access diffcult to certain parts. A fully dressed Duramax would be a squeeze.

You could use a pro-built TH400, but then you would be without OD and not get the fuel economy. So the best bet would be an Allison 1000 that will require major floorpan surgery to my it fit.

I'm not saying it can't be done or it shouldn't be done. I'm saying the conversion will be expensive and you would not recouping any of that money in fuel savings. I think the high cost has been why it hasn't been done too frequently before. The impala you are talking about was built by the "pimp my ride" guys and had a TV show type budget well beyond that of the average joe.

[79GMC_OLDS]

hmm...how about a 12 valve cummins with a nv4500 in a lightweight 2wd 73-87? sounds like a crazy idea!

yeah they work good...i did it... 600ft lbs at the wheels, 25 mpg, 470k km on the motor and still runs like new. worth every cent

[Pyrotechnic]

I would only go diesel if I really needed the power to pull a trailer or haul heavy loads that a comparable gas truck couldn't handle or would strain to much.

[Dooley]

For a while back in the mid 80's you could buy a Cummins diesel in your Chevy though the GM dealership. GM would build your pickup, send it to the Cummins facility, and they would send it to your dealership.

[moneyeater]

My truck was delivered with the 350 oldsdiesel and that thing was a pain in the a§".After it died i got in a 6.2 l "J" from a humvee and that thing ran like crazy and sounded mean.The fuelmileage was ok but the engine was ugly and there were no dressup parts availible!
The new diesels look great and have so much power and torque!
But i would only use one again if i had to tow trailers or haul heavy loads!
The gasengines are nicer,easier to access and service and cost less and sound smoother because my truck is my hobby!

[Dooley]

The Cummins packages for the GM's were pretty neat and simple.

[Storm Chaser]

I saw that Imala clip. Amazing. I don't think the engine choice has much to do with performance... it's all about the wallet. Anything can be a real performer if enough money is thrown at it (well, maybe except for the Olds diesel).

The Lambo's and other exotics are impressive when compared to other factory vehicles, like Taurus or Grand Am, but I bet alot of the hot rods out there would fare better in a heads-up race.

[killthewabbit]

I would do it, if I had the time/money/inclination. But I would also do an E85 conversion on my Chevelle and lots of other car-related things if I had enough money to not work and screw around with cars all day.

Back when I was writing for AutomotiveBlogger.net last year, I saw that Impala buildup on Pimp My Ride and did a little story on it. Here's a link:

http://www.automotiveblogger.net/800...-65-impala-ss/

It's pretty remarkable what you can get out of a modern diesel setup, but I don't think it would be cost effective. Sure would be fun, though.

[Thumpin455]

Diesels are heavy, they have to be to contain the combustion pressure, 15:1 is considered low compression for a diesel. Also the torque output is tremendous, so the engine has to survive its own power output. The transmission has to be able to handle a huge amount of power, so they are not cheap nor light either.

The throttle on a diesel is the injector, add more fuel it runs faster, so a turbo installation is relatively simple compared to a gasoline engine. Put a turbo on any engine and you can seriously up the power it makes, there are 4x4 1 ton crew cabs running bottom 11s in street trim.

There are advantages and drawbacks to diesels, just like any other engine. If you arent pulling often, or only for short distances, it isnt really worth the expense and complexity. If you are pulling long distances with heavy loads, it gets to be much more advantageous.

The used cooking oil converted to a fuel for diesels is interesting. It actually works quite well and is a much cheaper fuel source if you have the time and space to do the work required to convert it. Not sure if it would be viable to install a duramax in an older chassis just to run bio, but if you had a wrecked or severely rusted truck with one in it, then it gets a bit easier. Those engines are simply awesome. My father in law has a few of them, if you get a chance to pull a heavy load with one you will see what I mean about them.

Installing a diesel in a car is like putting a large ci gas engine in, everything needs to be beefed for the power output and weight of the car, trucks are a bit easier to swap, but a half ton would be straining to hold it.

[Thumpin455]

Originally Posted by killthewabbit

I would do it, if I had the time/money/inclination. But I would also do an E85 conversion on my Chevelle and lots of other car-related things if I had enough money to not work and screw around with cars all day.

One of my projects this spring is a still and putting a few of my vehicles on Ethanol, E85 would be an option for them if I travel in one, otherwise it will be straight ethanol. Might make some vodka while I am at it... I have a 12:1 compression 462ci Pontiac in the works right now, will look stock and make around 550hp, building it specifically for ethanol.

Being on a fixed disability income, with plenty of time to devote to a project, it makes sense for me to make what I can rather than buy it, including fuel for my toys.

[killthewabbit]

From what I understand the E85 conversion wouldn't be too hard, but I only know of two places in a 50 mile radius that sell E85. That, combined with a whole lot of other stuff I need to do to my projects first puts an E85 conversion way down at the bottom of the list. Making your own ethanol would be pretty fun. That's enough of my threadjack, though.

[Zoomad75]

Guys, don't buy into the E85 related Crap the media (and the OEM's like GM) have been spewing.

E85 is not the solution to our oil dependency. Gallon for gallon, E85 has less energy content than gasoline. Meaning, even though you might pay a $1 less than gas for it, you wont go as far on a gallon than gasoline. In otherwords, you might be paying less for it, your going to use more to go the same distance. Granted, you can make power with E85 IF you make the correct changes for it. The two key changes is bumping up the compression to take advantage of the higher octane content of E85 and the other is to increase jet sizes to allow more fuel through the carb (or larger injectors/revised fuel curve for FI). Keep in mind E85 is alcohol based, so any fuel system needs to be compatible to keep the rubber components from being damaged by the fuel.

You will make more power, but you'll use more fuel and have less places to fill up at. If you don't make the needed changes you'll have less power AND still use more fuel.

Right now I wouldn't waste much time/money in converting anything over to E85.

[killthewabbit]

I've heard all that, and I realize it's true. I've also heard that creating E85 is a net energy loss because of the electricity it requires. I realize that's true also, but discovering/drilling/pumping/refining gas and oil is probably not a net energy gain either. It's not widespread enough for me to seriously consider converting anything to use it yet, and probably won't be anytime soon.

The three things that make me like E85 are 1.) cleaner burning than gas and 2.) most of my old junk can be converted to use it without too much trouble and 3.) most important to me, I'd much rather buy my fuel from Iowa than the middle east or south america.

I'm not very good at not threadjacking. Sorry about that.

[Zoomad75]

Originally Posted by killthewabbit

The three things that make me like E85 are 1.) cleaner burning than gas and 2.) most of my old junk can be converted to use it without too much trouble and 3.) most important to me, I'd much rather buy my fuel from Iowa than the middle east or south america.

I'm not very good at not threadjacking. Sorry about that.

Replace E85 with Propane and you get all the same pro's and cons. Propane burns cleaner, don't take much to convert for older stuff running a carb and most propane we get is local.

Propane still lacks the energy content of gasoline so it needs similar things done to get the power back (like increased compression).

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. I just don't understand having to pay to convert to only get the added cost of using more fuel than before with having very little to recoup the cost of the conversion with the savings at the pump. It just seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater...

[killthewabbit]

A lot of guys in my uncle's rock crawler club do propane injected conversions in their rigs, and even the school buses in my county growing up were propane-powered 15 or 20 years ago. I did not know that most propane was gotten locally, though. Interesting.

I do agree with (what I think is) your most basic point: it's not remotely cost effective to convert to E85, and it probably won't be anytime soon.

I would do it if I had enough money and time, just like I would toss a new Duramax diesel in my C10 if I had enough money and time. I don't think either is particularly cost effective right now, though.

[Pyrotechnic]

Originally Posted by Zoomad75

Guys, don't buy into the E85 related Crap the media (and the OEM's like GM) have been spewing.

E85 is not the solution to our oil dependency. Gallon for gallon, E85 has less energy content than gasoline. Meaning, even though you might pay a $1 less than gas for it, you wont go as far on a gallon than gasoline. In otherwords, you might be paying less for it, your going to use more to go the same distance. Granted, you can make power with E85 IF you make the correct changes for it. The two key changes is bumping up the compression to take advantage of the higher octane content of E85 and the other is to increase jet sizes to allow more fuel through the carb (or larger injectors/revised fuel curve for FI). Keep in mind E85 is alcohol based, so any fuel system needs to be compatible to keep the rubber components from being damaged by the fuel.

You will make more power, but you'll use more fuel and have less places to fill up at. If you don't make the needed changes you'll have less power AND still use more fuel.

Right now I wouldn't waste much time/money in converting anything over to E85.

If motors did have ~12.5 to 13:1 compression, they would be a lot more efficient with E85, possibly bringing them close to what standard gasoline is getting with 9:1 compression. Of course it may still use more fuel, but the motor will be much more efficient because it's making the most out of that fuel.

Comparing E85 in a 9:1 motor to gasoline is like comparing a low compression naturally aspirated diesel to a gasoline motor. Those turbo diesels in big trucks sure are impressive, but you take away that turbo and it suddenly isn't anything special. You run E85 in a motor with less than ideal conditions...and you get less than ideal results. E85 motors are going to need high compression, or high boost.

[Storm Chaser]

E85 is just a band-aid. It's a means for the auto makers to say "lookie here- we're trying." It will never work to put even a dent in our oil dependency, and here's why...

To make E85, you need ethanol. To make ethanol, you need corn. Lots and lots of corn. Before the E85 craze, all the corn grown was used for something, be it canned corn, animal feed, etc. At any rate, it was ALL used for something.

Now, bring in a few hundred thousand E85 vehicles, and where does the corn come from? You either rob from the uses corn provided before or you switch other crops to corn. If you rob the other products, how much will a can of corn cost at the grocery? How much will hamburger and steaks cost when it becomes more expensive to feed the animals that provide them? OK, fine- lets switch more fields to corn then... now anything made with soybeans gets expensive (your kid will need 5 bucks a day to eat the soyburgers at school). How much do the other foodstuffs now cost that used to be grown in number?

OK, now lets produce another hundred thousand E85 cars. Now most of the farmers and their fields are leaning on corn as their main crop. You save a few bucks at the pump and smile as you think of your dollars going to the American farmers... Then you go to the grocery store and pay $206.97 and all you bought was a pound of hamburger, a can of green beans, a can of corn, and some flour. How did that E85 work out for ya in the long run?

I won't even get into the fact that there is not enough farmable acerage in the U.S. to even provide enough ethanol for 10% of the vehicles out there. This is the same reason Biodiesel will never work on a large scale too. There just isn't enough resource available for everyone, and we need a solution for EVERYONE, not just the select few who choose to drive far for an E85 station, or those who choose to brew their own Bio.

[808486CHEVY]

I saw a, i think, 86 3/4 ton 4x4 lwb the other day for $1400 it started and ran. Was tempting

[89 crew]

Originally Posted by Thumpin455

The throttle on a diesel is the injector, add more fuel it runs faster, so a turbo installation is relatively simple compared to a gasoline engine. Put a turbo on any engine and you can seriously up the power it makes, there are 4x4 1 ton crew cabs running bottom 11s in street trim.

Putting a turbo on any diesel won't make a k35 crew turn 11's! You would have to completely remodel the injection assembly, probably a port polish, balance, add propane injection or nitrous, remove governor, and on new computerized you would have to chip or power program. Building a performance diesel Will cost more than a 454 to get equal hp and tq!

[79GMC_OLDS]

Originally Posted by 89 crew

Building a performance diesel Will cost more than a 454 to get equal hp and tq!

for $1500 you can easily get 400hp/850 ft lbs out of a 12 valve cummins

$1000 will give you 350hp/810 ft lbs on a 24 valve

who needs a 454

[VTKidder]

The main reason you can make a crew-cab 1-ton loaded work truck smack a Lamborghini around is that a gasoline engine tops out at around 11:1 compression on traditional pump gas.

Diesels usually start at around 14:1 and can run as high as 25:1 compression. Cram a pile of fuel and air in, compress it at 25:1, touch it off and see what happens.