Engine builder says to use valvoline 20w50

[highperf4x4]

When you adjust the lifters for a hydraulic camshaft, you set the lifters with 0 lash and then go another 1/4 turn. You never try to pump the lifters up before you install them. They will pump up on their own when the engine starts. Since there is 0 lash with a hydraulic lifter there should be 0 noise coming from it when it starts. If you've set them properly, you also do not need to "adjust" them after you run the engine. If you have valve lash (noise) then something has given out or they weren't set properly to start with. Either way, you're screwed. If the noise starts to go away, the cam lobe has probably been ground off completely, hence, the lifter is not moving at all. If it's an exhaust valve, it will start backfiring through the carb when the intake valve opens. Good luck!

[highperf4x4]

Here's an example of a bad break-in on a hydraulic camshaft.







You see that last lobe that looks like chrome? That shiny spot in the middle is where the lobe "center" or the "point" should be. It's completely gone and the lobe is polished. That's a failed camshaft lobe. The lifter shouldn't make contact with the entire lobe to polish it like that. You look at the other lobes and see a "trail" where the lifter made contact with a narrow portion of the lobe and as it hit the point (center) it spun. that is the normal pattern and those lobes are not "polished". As that lobe failed the "clattering" noise got quieter and quieter. However the engine lost power. It basically became a V7 instead of a V8.

[spinning wheels]

Just to add my .02 cents to this post.

One of the reason zinc and other metals protecting additives have been removed from motor oil, is due to how used motor oil is classified. If motor oils were produced the way they were 20 years ago, (yeah, its been that long since zinc and other additives have been removed or lowered), when a shop would do an oil change. That oil would be classified as a hazardous waste product. It would be a PIA to get rid of. Also, oil companies would be responsible for any contamination that that oil would produce. In other words, huge liabilities to oil companies, just to produce motor oil. The term for this federal law is "From cradle to grave", you the producer are responsible for the product.

Damn, I knew something would stick in my brain after having worked 15 plus years in the hazardous waste industry

As for motor oil, Amsoil synthetic is some of the best stuff I have used. But it is a PIA to find and not cheap.

highperf4x4 gave some very valid and useful info, and I agree 99.99% of what he mentioned.

[my70chevyc10]

I work at the Kragens in walnut Ca an all my customers that race cars use an oil called ROTELLA its made for big rigs.They say it has all the good cemicals in it. It comes in a blue bottle or a white bottle an only comes in a 1gal jug. If anyone is in the walnut area just stop by an ask for John. Im at the corner of Amar an Nogales next to the Albertsons I close most days i work.

[Nachos82]

If someone has them, could they post the GM EOS part number.

[67shortie]

Here is more read on the Chevelle board I frequent

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243928

[Sinister]

Originally Posted by Nacho82

If someone has them, could they post the GM EOS part number.

I just go in to the local Chevy dealer's parts counter and ask for EOS Assembly Lube.

[Sport/Truck]

How long has GM been using EOS? Here’s what I’m thinking-
If GM has been using EOS for a long time, back when oils had ZDDP, then one bottle of the EOS isn’t enough now. Does this make sense? If you had good oil w/ZDDP & you add EOS then it would’ve been a ton of ZDDP.
Just thinking…..
s/t

[chipflyer]

Great point S/T, EOS was an assembly lube for breaking in new cams and doesn't have enough zinc/phosphorus for protection. Thats why I use ZDDP Plus. Use one bottle with each oil change, run any kind of oil you want and forget about flattening the lobes on your cam. Period
The chart below shows the difference in the 2 products

[highperf4x4]

I'm not trying to throw in the towel on anyone's oil debate but I'd like to emphasize something to help people find that long term engine.

All too often people have blamed the camshaft manufacturers and the oil companies for failed flat tappet camshafts. While it's true that oil with Zinc or Zinc additives will help to prolong the life of a flat tappet cam, the majority of the responsibility falls on the driver/engine builder. First and foremost with the engine builder. The camshaft MUST be broken-in properly. The first 25 minutes are CRUCIAL. Technique is more important than oil by a LONGSHOT. I'll lay 100.00 on the table right now that I can build a brand new engine, use only the grease that was supplied with the cam/lifters and 5 qts of generic country gas station virgin oil and break-in that cam without polishing a lobe, scuffing a lifter, or any pitting whatsoever. I'm confident because I've won that bet already.

With the internet revolution all too many people are taking on the task of building their own engines or simply tossing in a big cam in ther current motor because cheap performance parts and gobs of information are readily available at your fingertips. What you can't pull off the internet is the experience. So, be confident, but be cautious. Don't be quick to throw the blame on the oil or the manufacturer. Follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter.

Just a tidbit. I''m running a 375hp 350 small block right now in my 4x4 that I built 2 years ago. I use no additives and I run plain old Valvoline Straight 30w. I like to go mudding on a regular basis and I just used that 4x4 to pull my old 72 GMC from Rogers Arkansas back to Oklahoma City on a flatbed trailer weighing out at 11,300 lbs with the A/C on at 70 mph all the way. It did run hotter than usual and the oil pressure did drop by almost 5 lbs from 70 to 65 so it was definitely a strain. However, I can get in it right now and go suck the headlights out of most of the rice burners in town. That brings me to the driver's responsibility. If you run your engine hard you need to change the oil more often. If you have a slight leak or you burn some oil then you have to check it "regularly". If you routinely let your engine get just 1 qt low on oil it will kill the cam. As I stated previously, the crankshaft oils the cam by throwing oil on it. If you're a qt low on oil then you're not oiling the cam like you need to be and 4 qts of oil will heat up and thin worse than 5 qts of oil. If you're constantly running high rpms with a high volume pump then you're pumping most of your oil to the top of the motor and not helping the cam out at all.

Using additives or zinc infested oil is a good idea but it doesn't replace experience or good habits.

Again, this is just some info for those who are looking to stretch their engines as long as possible.

[highperf4x4]

Hey guys, I just read back through my posts and I realized that they sound a little coneited and closed minded. I apologize for that. I try to make it a point not to dismiss other people's opinion's and ideas. I hope nobody has gotten that impression. I'm just trying to explain some of my own personal experience and shed light on areas that all too often are overlooked or not taken seriously. I've read alot of posts in this thread with good information in them and oil is important. Just trying to keep the nuts and bolts theories alive too.

[Sport/Truck]

Originally Posted by chipflyer

Great point S/T, EOS was an assembly lube for breaking in new cams and doesn't have enough zinc/phosphorus for protection. Thats why I use ZDDP Plus. Use one bottle with each oil change, run any kind of oil you want and forget about flattening the lobes on your cam. Period
The chart below shows the difference in the 2 products

I like the looks of that stuff & would like to find it locally.
s/t

[A.P.]

Great information.

[70cst]

Sport/Truck ...This is such a great and informative thread that I have awarded you a REPUTATION Point.

[wwotr]

Going out on a SOMEWHAT related Question.
Although I'm ot specifically addressing a "Camshaft Break-In" Question, I do have one on Oil Viscosity.
I just Traded for a 72 GMC. It has a 350 Engine from a 94 Chevy Silverado in it. I live at an elevation of 3000'.
Temps in the Winter can go as low as 19 Degrees and as High in the Summer as 105. None of these extremes are for any length of time and my GMC will be a Daily Driver in Summer, and put away (for the most part from November through April). That being said, I've always like Castrol GTX 10-40Wt.The engine in my GMC "supposedly" has 35K miles on it.

Thought/Suggestions/Opinions.

Let em' rip!

Roger

[70rs/ss]

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results...partnumber=EOS


Link to GM parts direct, they sell it for $12-13 a bottle, so stock up! Also has the part number in there as well if you want to go to the local parts store (chevy dealer).


GM PART # EOS *
CATEGORY: Vehicle Care
PACK QTY: 1
CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $19.09
OUR PRICE: $12.17


DESCRIPTION: Engine Oil Supplement

Gm has reinstated this EOS and the new number is 88862586.

Engine oil supplement (Part number 88862586)



EOS - Engine Assembly Prelube
Specifically formulated as an engine assembly lubricant. E.O.S. provides outstanding protection against run-in wear and piston scuffing as well as run-in camshaft lobe and lifter scuffing resulting from insufficient lubrication.

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by wwotr

Going out on a SOMEWHAT related Question.
Although I'm ot specifically addressing a "Camshaft Break-In" Question, I do have one on Oil Viscosity.
I just Traded for a 72 GMC. It has a 350 Engine from a 94 Chevy Silverado in it. I live at an elevation of 3000'.
Temps in the Winter can go as low as 19 Degrees and as High in the Summer as 105. None of these extremes are for any length of time and my GMC will be a Daily Driver in Summer, and put away (for the most part from November through April). That being said, I've always like Castrol GTX 10-40Wt.The engine in my GMC "supposedly" has 35K miles on it.

Thought/Suggestions/Opinions.

Let em' rip!

Roger

My first suggestion would be to not use a 10w-40. A multigrade oil uses "fillers" to achieve the "hot" viscosity which in this case is 40. You're starting out with 10w oil. That's all it will ever be. It's not very thick. That 40 means that when it's "hot" it's equivalent to straight 40w that's hot because conventional oil thins as it heats up. The problem is that the more fillers you have, the less lubrication you have. Theres only so much product you can put in a quart of anything. Something has to be sacrificed. In your case, you're going from 10 to 40. That's a ton of fillers. You're losing alot of lubrication.

Higher viscosity is not important. Lubrication is. Keep in mind that some new engines only call for a 0w-20 oil or a 5w-20. That's some thin oil but it still has alot of lubrication because it doesn't have as many fillers as a 10w-40. If you're in a climate that cold then straight 30w may be a little thick as it will be slower to start flowing when it's cold (and you need the most lubrication at startup) so you might want to use a 10w-30 but I wouldn't go any farther than that. I would also recommend the Lucas Oil Stabilizer. It's great stuff.

[Sport/Truck]

Originally Posted by 70cst

Sport/Truck ...This is such a great and informative thread that I have awarded you a REPUTATION Point.

Thank you, and to everyone who helped this to become such an informative thread!
Dean

[Camper Power]

dont mean to jack this thread but i want to get this straight, if you have a flat tappet cam regardless if its soild or hydraulic you need zinc in your oil. and other than loss of power is there any other tell tale signs you are wiping the cam.

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by Camper Power

dont mean to jack this thread but i want to get this straight, if you have a flat tappet cam regardless if its soild or hydraulic you need zinc in your oil. and other than loss of power is there any other tell tale signs you are wiping the cam.

Yeah it's the removal of zinc from conventional motor oil that is causing concern for flat tappet cams.

There are several things to look for. You can pull your valve covers and see if any of the pushrods have slack in them. If it's a solid lifter cam they will have slight lash in them all but not much. If you can easily move one up and down then the lobe/lifter are probably damaged. Look for metal in the oil, listen for any popping in the carb. Do a compression test on each cylinder.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by highperf4x4

Wow, I'm amazed at some of the things I've read in this thread. It's awesome that everyone is talking about this issue because it's extremely important but I can't believe some of things I'm hearing that the "mechanics" have said.

I'm a performance engine builder so I'm going to drop some info here just in case anyone is interested in using it. Definitely not trying to step on anyone's toes so this is just a "take it or leave it" kinda post.

Most of this info will deal with "flat tappet" hydraulic or solid lifter cams. Roller cams aren't subject to the "zinc" issue. And it all has to do with break-in. Your camshaft will either be set or ruined in the first 25 minutes.

1. Most important!!!! Your break-in procedure for the camshaft is the #1 issue regardless of oil. The cam lobes and lifter bottoms needs to be coated with the assembly grease that came with them. During installation you need to pour an entire bottle of GM EOS all over the cam and lifters. It will drain down and mix with your oil in the pan. Once you're ready to fire it up you have to start your engine and immediately bring it up to the 2500 to 3000 rpm range. You need to vary the rpm between 2500 and 3000 for at least 25 minutes. This means you need to have your timing set and enough coolant in the engine so that it will run this rpm and not overheat/backfire. If you're having trouble starting the engine, don't keep cranking, figure out the problem and try again. The reason for this procedure is that the lifters need to mate to the cam. They do this by spinning. The bottom of the lifters aren't flat. They're slightly indented, it's just hard to tell it. Same with the cam lobes. They have a slight arch in them. The reason for varying the rpm is that it will cause the crankshaft to throw oil on different ares of the cam. Your cam gets its oil from what is slung up by the crankshaft. If one area of the cam doesn't get enough oil during the break-in then the lifter bottom will overheat and "microweld" to the cam lobe when you shut it off. The next time you fire it up, it will break loose from the cam taking a small piece of the lobe with it. This is called "pitting" That pit will destroy the bottom of the lifter and then the lifter will destroy the cam lobe.

Now, the second most important thing to do is use the proper oil. It has more to do with what "not" to use. DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OIL for break-in or the first 10,000 miles. If you've built a performance motor then don't use it at all. A synthetic oil is too slippery and this will keep your lifters from spinning on the cam lobe during break-in and they will never mate. It wil also interfere with this spinning at high rpm in a performance engine. As a tip, if you can have someone in the vehicle to control the rpm of the motor then you can run it without the valve covers in place. You can get a spash shield to catch the oil slung out by the pushrods. Watch the pushrods as they will spin with the lifters. If you see one that isn't spinning you can give it a spin with your fingers to help it start. (This is assuming that you've properly adjusted your lifters/rocker arms) Don't use a multi-grade oil either. Do your break-in with a straight 30w oil. The thicker the oil, the cooler it will keep the camshaft during break-in. Heat is a major factor. The GM EOS additive that you pour over the cam and lifters is the only additive you need. After you've finished the break-in procedure immediately change the oil. You can add more GM EOS to the new oil. Run that oil for about 500 miles (this is to seat the piston rings) and change it again.

Now for oil theories. Shell Rotella oil was the only conventional oil you could get at your parts store that still had the zinc in it but that ended early last year. If you look at a bottle now it has that triple protection stamp on it including "emissions". That tells you that the zinc has been removed. So, Diesel oil no longer has any advantage over any other oil.

As for multi-grades (ie 10w30, 10w40, 20w50) They are not 30w, 40w, or 50w oil. That second number means that they are "equivalent" to those wieghts after they've gotten "hot". They do this by adding "fillers" to the oil that keeps it from breaking down as much when it heats up. The down side is that you lose some lubrication as it's replaced by the "fillers". I use only straight 30w oil. This is actually thicker than 20w50. However, it thins normally as it gets hot whereas the 20w50 will be "as thick" as straight 50w when it's hot. Keeping your oil at the highest possible weight is not necessary. 90% percent of your engine wear (in a tight motor)_will occur at startup. Unless you drive at excessive rpms or overheat the engine.

No oil will ever break the drive rod for your oil pump. And 20w-50 is not even as thick as straight 30w when it's cold so don't worry about that. If you run a straight 50w oil (perhaps your engine is old and loose) then you need to take it out before the outside temperature drops below 60. Oil that thick will not flow properly at startup and your engine will run dry until it heats up.

Racing oil is not meant for street use. It will gum up. If you use it, make sure you change it every 1000 miles. That's gonna get expensive.

Like I said, this is my personal info, and not meant to argue with anyone else's experience.

Here's my recommendation for your engine's break-in.
-Straight 30w, any "conventional" brand you want to use. (not synthetic)
-GM EOS additive.
-After break-in change it immediately.
-Add GM EOS again
-At 500 miles, change it again.
-If you want to use a zinc additive, go ahead but it's not necessary once the cam has been broken in.
-Do not use Synthetics or additives like slick 50 for the first 10,000 miles. If it's a performance (high rpm) engine, don't use it at all.

Now, if you have a roller cam................ I've just wasted a bunch of typing because you can use whatever oil or procedure you want to!

Nice Job! I agree totally. One thing I would add is if you have a engne built and the builder reccomends a specific weight oil I would use it. Only he knows what the bearing clearances are, and should be taking that into account when reccomending the viscosity. I run VR1 30 in my 464 Pontiac and 10w30 VR1 in the truck in the colder months and VR1 30 in the summer. Both have roller cams, any thing with out a roller cam I use Brad Penn. I have though about trying ZDDP plus. I would have to send a sample of Brad Penn and then a sample of Valvoline with ZZDP plus out to be tested first. Then check the comparison. Great Topic!!

[chipflyer]

dont mean to jack this thread but i want to get this straight, if you have a flat tappet cam regardless if its soild or hydraulic you need zinc in your oil.

That is absolutely correct, almost every oil company (even Rotella) has cut the Zinc/phosphorus from their oil and it is not going to protect your flat tappet cam like it used to.
Just because you "have used brand x for years without trouble" means nothing now. Run any brand with an additive like ZDDP plus and forget the problem.

Jeff

[okiefab]

highperf4x4 your right on i have use straight 30 wt Valvoline in a lot of engines over the years no problem and on my new 350 the same with cam lube and EOS for break in,i now run 30wt valvoline with zddp, you can still get Rotella with zink if you can find it we have it here in farm stores 5 gal but i dont know for how long

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by okiefab

highperf4x4 your right on i have use straight 30 wt Valvoline in a lot of engines over the years no problem and on my new 350 the same with cam lube and EOS for break in,i now run 30wt valvoline with zddp, you can still get Rotella with zink if you can find it we have it here in farm stores 5 gal but i dont know for how long

Yeah, I'm thinking of checking some of the farther out farm stores around here to see if they have any NOS of the Rotella.