T5 vs Tremec (and now Moser??)

[jocko]

While I realize the T5 is not as beefy as other o/d transmissions - has anyone experienced durability issues with a T5 behind a mild small block?

Spent a little time chatting up a T5 rebuilder today at Carlisle - he said the T5's (i.e. "his" T5's) were good for up to approx 350 hp. Seemed a bit of a stretch, but I nodded my head up and down. But the price is right and the shifter location is right, and the gear ratios are right...

Also, one of the trans vendors said that Moser (I THINK he said Moser, the rear end and axle guys) is coming out with a ground-up new heavy duty 5-speed o/d trans to give tremec a run for their money. Supposed to be an 800hp capable trans in the mid-$2000's range. Anyone heard of that thing yet?? I don't need that much strength, but it's cheaper than a tremec.. I'm just sayin.

thanks,
jocko

[68GMCCustom]

The T-56 Magnum or whatever they call it is rated at like 700ft lbs I think and around that price.
A tremec tko-500 5 speed is less then $2k

[M5-]

I have a T5 here at my house that I'm trying to decide whether to install or not, same problem. From what I have read about them if they have the 2.95 first gear ratio and are a World class model they were rated up to 330 lb feet or torque. Basically thats the internals of the Z class T5 from the 5.0 Mustangs which I think were in the 300 hp range. I figure I'll slap it in there and see what happens. If a guy wants a tougher T5 G Force makes them good for 600hp or so but I think it'll cost the same as a T56.

I'm no expert here its just what I have read so if you find any great T5 ideas or information I'd love to hear it.
M5

[raycow]

I put a T-5 in my 60 C-10 several years ago and have had absolutely no problems with it. However, I have a stock 305, skinny tires, and I drive it like I own it.

T-5s used to blow up with regularity in 305 Camaros and 5.0 Mustangs if they were driven hard. Neither car now offers a T-5 with any kind of V-8. I really don't think a T-5 is a good idea if you have any kind of power at all and plan to thrash it.

Ray

[lakeroadster]

When it comes to T-5's there are different transmission torque ratings.. before you buy anything be armed with the facts and pick the one that works best for your application. A lot of data here.....

Here is a fact filled article entitled T-5 Transmission Swaps from Hemmings Muscle Machines, July 1, 2004 - By Jim O'clair

One of the most versatile transmissions in the last 20 years or so has been the Borg-Warner T-5 manual transmission. This five-speed unit was used as original equipment by several manufacturers and can be easily adapted into older muscle cars as well. Based on the Borg Warner SR-4 and T-4 four-speed, a fifth gear was added to the case, creating the T-5. Actually, American Motors was the first manufacturer to use this transmission in the 1982 Spirit and Concord cars. Ford soon adopted the T-5, using this unit in the 1983 Mustangs and Thunderbirds. GM used the T-5 in the 1982 and up S/T series pickups and small Blazers, and their Astro vans. They began installing them in 1983 in the Camaros and Firebirds. Nissan also liked the idea of an internal shifter linkage five-speed, and they used this transmission in the 280ZX/300Z cars as well. Additionally, Honda and Isuzu used the T-5 in some models in the 1990s.

One of the advantages of this transmission is that the internal parts will interchange between versions of this unit. This enables you to select from several shift ratios, and the transmission is adaptable to different engine conversions or rear-end ratios. A T-5, while not known as a drag-racing transmission, can improve gas mileage in cars and trucks with taller gears because of the overdrive fifth-gear ratio. Another advantage is that the shifting linkages are internal, improving clearance for easier conversion because external shift linkage clearance is not an issue. The T-5 used in the GM models incorporates a hydraulic clutch master on the firewall and slave attached to the bell housing to provide smoother shifting with less effort than with a conventional mechanical clutch linkage. The Ford version of the T-5 uses a shift cable attached to the clutch pedal. The cases are all-aluminum and are referred to as toploaders because the access cover for the internals is on the top of the transmission rather than on the side like some other standard transmissions.


There were two generations of T-5 transmissions. All units used from beginning of production in 1982 until mid-1985 were referred to as "non-world class" or NWC. Non-world class versions had all-bronze synchro assemblies and used roller bearings to support the countershaft. In mid-1985, Ford began using the next generation T-5, called the "world class" or WC unit. These had numerous design improvements. First and second synchros were bearing and shaft assemblies rather than solid shafts in the non-world class, and the third and fourth synchro was a steel-reinforced unit with fiber-lined rings. Only fifth gear was still an all-bronze synchro. Both generation Ford T-5s used a 1-1/16-inch 10-spline input shaft diameter and a 28-spline output shaft. The 1983-92 GM T-5s that were coupled to V-8 engines have a 26-spline, 1-1/8-inch input shaft. The GM 4-cylinder and V-6 T-5s used the 3.52 through 4.03 ratios and were 1-inch, 14-spline input shafts. Later model F-Body world-class versions of the GM T-5s used the lower, 2.95 to 1 ratio gearbox and are the most sought-after for GM applications.

The non-world class T-5s were used in the following cars and trucks:
1982-85 AMC Spirit, Eagle, Concord
1982-96 Jeep CJ and XJ trucks
1982-85 Ford Mustang, Thunderbird
1983-87 Camaro, Firebird
1982-92 Chevy S/T-10 pickups, Blazers, Astro van
1982-83 Nissan 280ZX
1984-86 Nissan 300ZX
1984-86 Chevette and Pontiac T-1000 also used this unit; however, the countershaft bearings were smaller and the T-Body bellhousing was not interchangeable with any other GM models.
The more popular world-class units were used in these original vehicles:
Late 1985-96 Mustang/Cougar/Thunderbird
1988-96 Camaro and Firebird
1993-95 Chevy/GMC S/T series trucks
1994-96 Honda Passport
1991-97 Isuzu Rodeo

Note: 4-cylinder Ford 2.3-liter Turbo units as well as 1993-96 Cobra "Z-Spec" T-5s do not interchange directly, due to a difference in the input shaft bearings. The most important difference between the non-world class and the world-class transmissions is the torque rating. Later is better (or the higher the tag number). For example, 1983-89 Mustang units, both world class and non-world class, were rated at 265-lbs.ft. of torque. The 1990-93 versions were rated at 300-lbs.ft., and the 1993-96 Cobra "Z-Spec" T-5 was rated at 330-lbs.ft.

You should be looking for as complete a unit as possible, when searching the swap meets or salvage yards for these transmissions. On GM's crossmember, clutch master, clutch hose, and clutch slave cylinder should come with the unit to save time and plumbing. It would be even better if the starter and flywheel were still with the car; usually later-model starters are lighter and have higher torque. If converting from an automatic-equipped car to a manual, a clutch pedal from the donor car will also be needed, as well as the bellhousing. On Ford vehicles, hydraulics are not used, and a shift cable is employed in place of the clutch master and slave cylinders. Make sure to take this cable when buying parts off the donor car. Aftermarket clutch cables and crossmembers are available, if these parts cannot be found.

An identification tag number, which is on one of the mounting bolts on the tail case, can identify all T-5 manual 5-speeds. They all start with prefix 1352, and the next few digits will tell you what the unit came out of originally and what its shift ratio is. You can check any original tag number online at www.5speeds.com. Numbering series starts at 001 and runs as high as about 260. Borg-Warner sold the rights to the T-5 to Tremec in the late 1990s; however, there is no difference between the two manufacturers' production units, other than the name used in the castings.

Ratios depend on tag number, but most are in the 3.35 to 3.97:1 range. There are 2.95:1 units that were used in the late-model Mustangs, Camaros and Firebirds. The 2.3 Turbo Fords used a few units that were 4.06:1. Speedometer drive gears were 6, 7 or 8 teeth, but may have to be changed, depending on engine and rear-end size in the transplant vehicle. Changing of the speedometer gear is a definite requirement when installing a transmission and V-8 unit in a 6-cylinder, and vice versa.

The Ford versions of the T-5 will adapt easily to the earlier Ford three- and four-speed manual bellhousings by an adapter plate which enlarges the metric mounting bosses to 1/2-inch diameter, and adds 3/4-inch in spacing. Installation of a T-5 into an earlier Ford product is fairly easy, because of the bellhousing similarities. You should make sure, however, that the proper flywheel is used, depending on the year of your engine. The 1981 and earlier Ford small-blocks used a 28-ounce imbalance, 157-tooth flywheel. Any of the small-block Fords newer than 1981 used a 50-ounce imbalance, 157-tooth flywheel. These should not be interchanged. Late-model T-5 bellhousings used on earlier Ford V-8 engines will bolt up, but the late-model fulcrum for the fork needs to be replaced with an early-style fulcrum installed on the inside of the housing to align the throw-out bearing fork. You can, of course, also use an aftermarket scatter shield for this changeover, eliminating these adapters.

Because of the similarities in earlier and later Ford small-block bellhousings, it's possible your acquired T-5, with an early flywheel, will fit in these small-block V-8 applications:

1965-68 Ford full-size cars
1965-69 Comet
1967-70 Fairlane
1967-70 Falcon
1968-73 Mustang
1971-74 Torino
1970-74 Montego

Mounting a T-5 in place of a Super T-10, Muncie or Saginaw into a Chevy is pretty straightforward; the input shaft length is identical, and the whole unit is only two inches longer overall at the transmission mount pad. A shorter driveshaft would be required, and modifications to the crossmember would be necessary to mount the T-5 properly. The bellhousing-to-block bolt patterns are the same on the earlier V-8s, and the bellhousing-to-transmission configuration is common to all other GM manual transmissions; so installation of a 1983-92 GM T-5 out of a V-8 should be relatively painless, if you can acquire all the necessary parts from the donor car. Although the V-6 and 4-cylinder input shafts are 14-spline and will fit with the proper clutch disc, they are not recommended for V-8 applications. They do not have the higher torque ratings required for the V-8 units without upgrading the internals. Installing one of these five-speeds in a Buick, Pontiac or Oldsmobile would require the use of the proper B-O-P bellhousing. There are two that have been found to fit both engine and transmission. One is out of a 1979-81 Firebird or 1979 Skylark (casting number 563441). The other is from a 1982 F-body (casting number 14037657).

All 1993 and up GM cars with the T-5 used the Ford bellhousing bolt pattern, and not the earlier GM pattern. The 1993 and up GM applications were limited to V-6 Camaros/Firebirds, as the option was not offered in the V-8s. You can identify these transmissions by the 26-spline GM input shaft with a Ford bolt pattern. You should also know that F-Body bellhousings mount the transmission at a 17-degree angle towards the driver, which could cause problems when trying to line up and mount the shifter through the floorboards of other models.

Aftermarket adapters to mount the Ford T-5 are available for AMC V-8s, Ford flatheads, and early 1950s Chrysler Hemis. Adapters for GM T-5s are also available for these same cars, plus Buick V-6 and Chrysler flathead 6-cylinder. A, B, and E-Body Mopars can also use the T-5 with an aftermarket bellhousing from one of several suppliers. AMC and Jeep can replace their existing SR4 or T-4 unit with the T-5, and adapters are available to install it in 4WD Jeep applications too. There are numerous "How To" installation instructions on Internet web forums from various enthusiast groups that include Imports and early Chevrolet six-cylinder truck applications.

T-5s are currently selling for between $150 and $500 through swap meets and salvage yards, and complete changeover kits are being sold in the $850 range. Rebuilt T-5s run about $700 to $850. The improvements in performance gained by changing to a T-5 will certainly outweigh the effort required to complete this installation, and the fuel savings, as an added bonus, will help make the decision to upgrade to this transmission one to consider.

This article originally appeared in the JULY 1, 2004 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines

[jocko]

most excellent gouge guys, thanks very much - at least now I am better informed as to which direction to go. Not going to thrash the truck - but am planning to eventually put a vette dual quad set up from early sixties. So mileage will suck, but it will look cool (they are pretty small cfm, around 375 or so). May change the heads, but again, goal is not to really hammer on it, just enjoy cruising with it. Lotsa good info on the T5, thanks again, much appreciated. Lakeroadster, thanks for taking the time to put the article in - it is a great reference, will probably be coming back and re-reading this several times!
jocko

[Heater63]

One more clarification, the tko-500 is right at $2,100 currently, no matter where you buy, AND, the stock rear shifter location is only good with bucket seats in our trucks. if you plan to use a bench seat you will want to use the mid shifter location, which requires a kit to be installed, another $250 or so.

On the T5, the S10 version tailshaft works goos for bench seats, the camaro et al version works well with buckets. You can put the non world class S10 tailshaft on a world class T5 box to get the forward shifter location.
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[jocko]

thanks Heater63 - good info. I was planning on the mid-shifter location (if I went the tremec route) and that's why I had a number well north of $2K in my head. When you add in the possibility of the need for a crossmember, possible driveshaft change or mod, etc - adds up quick. What you mention is about what I remember the price being for just the trans alone. The T5 looked like the stock shifter location would be a good fit, I agree (i.e. S10 for a bench seat truck). So, I'm gonna do a little more shoppin and see what mods/extra stuff they may have done to the trannys and go from there. May wait for the Moser (?) 5 speed to come out this winter also just out of curiosity. All these plans are on hold until I move, but once I get back to Cali, then I can dive right in and the trans is the first thing I need to get swapped to make it a little more driveable - lots of open empty highway, and I don't really want to be doing 60 just to keep it below 3500 rpm...
Thanks again all.

[1Bad62Pro/Street]

My favorite manual transmission is the Muncie 4 Speeds....
Man they are bad!

Muncie 4-speeds were produced in two different ratios wide ratio (M-20) and close-ratio (M-21). An extra heavy duty close-ratio version (M-22) was also offered on many of the big-block high-performance models.The choice of transmission was dictated by the engine size and rear-axle ratio. Axle ratios of 3.73 and lower (numerically higher) came with close-ratio transmissions, while axle ratios of 3.55 and higher (numerically lower) used wide-ratio transmissions. In addition, many GM high-performance engines came with M-22 “Rock-Crusher” in the 1970-73 years, however an early version of the M-22 was available as early as 1965 in Corvettes.

Just another thought.....
Very popular in the muscle car world!

http://www.yearone.com/updatedsingle...nfo/muncie.asp

http://www.5speeds.com/muncie2.htm
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[68GMCCustom]

sorry about the pricing....I thought I had seen tko-500's for under $2k....I guess it was just over $2k or maybe I saw somebody's new/uinstalled for a discount.
Also...didn't GM offer a 5 speed in the '88-'98 body trucks...or was it not as strong as a WC T5?

[fryer1979]

Just found out a buddy of mine is giving me a T-5 from a late 80's Firebird as a pay-off for a $100 debt. I'm just bookmarking here for the good info in case I decide a T-5 would be fun in my truck.

[raycow]

Originally Posted by 68GMCCustom

Also...didn't GM offer a 5 speed in the '88-'98 body trucks...or was it not as strong as a WC T5?

Two 5 speeds, actually. First, there was the NV3500, which is stronger than the T-5 and probably ok for a mild 350. This one shifts like a car. Starting around 92, you could also get the NV4500, which has a granny 1st gear and is strong enough for anything - but you wouldn't want it for racing. Think of it as an SM465 with overdrive.

Ray

[CSGAS]

FYI, when Long's Tool & Machine (makers of Long's shifters) acquired Tex Racing (they already had G-Force) the started shrinking the list of overlapping products their companies offer.

So now instead of a G-Force T-5 and a bunch of other 5 speeds in their lineup, they have a custom tranny that comes in a case that looks similar to a T-5 but is much stronger, and I think they still have 2 or 3 other 5 speeds they are committed to keep producing for specific racing series.

That may explain why Moser is stepping into the market--they may figure G-Force left a hole in a market for cheap OD T-5 arrangements.

Also, my personal reason for looking at a T-5 in the future (or a 200-4R/700r4) are for easy to get bolt-in lightweight options for a DD/shop truck. The NV3500 kind of fits into the same category but is a lot heavier than a T-5--I'd need some assistance to lift one into place for example, plus it has an integral bellhousing that, like the automatics, would force some routine changes from the rear-engine-mount arrangement to a typical tranny-tailshaft mount. I'm just going to wait and see what falls in my lap, but you might have some of the same concerns I do.

I really would recommend the NV4500 for A LOT of people, it's just overkill for what I intend to do...I'll put one into a real car hauler or trailer puller if I put one together down the road but if I step up from the T-5/200-4R/700r4 options for my current truck my needs would better match a T-56 than a real truck tranny for similar prices.

Again, it really depends on what your intended purpose is which may have no resemblance to mine, but I'd rather let you decide with all the info you can have. Good luck!

[Captainfab]

The NV3500 and variations of it are rated at 330 ftlbs. I wouldn't say they shift as good/fast as a typical performance car trans, but they are a little better than your typical 'truck' trans.

Also the NV3500's are setup for a hydraulic clutch actuation only.

[lakeroadster]

Originally Posted by 1Bad62Pro/Street

My favorite manual transmission is the Muncie 4 Speeds....

Using a Muncie will require bucket seats due to the shifter location at the rear of the transmission. ( I have this set-up on my '65 )

[jocko]

thanks for all the input - and copy the muncie comments also. I do love muncies, but that won't help me much in the o/d department (and as lakeroadster mentioned, doesn't work with a bench seat either, a big issue for me). There is an M-21Y that offers an o/d 4th gear - around .87:1 I think, but that's not MUCH of an o/d. This is why I'm leaning toward a 5-speed. Truck currently has SM318, and although I've been a little torn about 5-speed vs. 700R4 - both of which would meet my needs, I think I am going to go with the manual option. (Was leaning toward 700R4 because I currently live in the MD/Wash DC area, and traffic simply SUCKS - and a stick sucks in traffic no matter how you slice it- but am now moving back to sunny so cal, so looking fwd to open highways (not so cal as in LA, but so cal as in mojave desert). So, 5 speed it is - TBD if I go with T5 or TKO 500, but as of today am leaning toward the T5 for what I have. Not towing, not racing, just cruising. Thanks for all the help - excellent information.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

I have a TKO 600 in my truck but then again I have a extremely healthy SBC backed to it. I have blown up too many of the T-5's to even want to go that route. They are not a durable item if you romp on the truck. They are rated for 305 engines from z28/ firbirds. I know that I paid a pretty penny for the TKO600. But that tranny is tough and has never missed a lick. With WOT upshifts at 7600 RPM this is one tough trans. Being that you have to fab items up to make this stuff work, easy to do it once vs twice. On the t-5 trannys the shifter is WAY back almost into the seat, with the TKO, I moved the shifter to the front mounting location( buy in that location) and I had to trim a very small slice of tin to drop the trans floor pan back on.

[raycow]

Originally Posted by GMR-PERFORMANCE

On the t-5 trannys the shifter is WAY back almost into the seat, with the TKO, I moved the shifter to the front mounting location( buy in that location) and I had to trim a very small slice of tin to drop the trans floor pan back on.

The T-5 shifter can be moved forward by swapping S-10 parts. This mod makes it a good fit in our trucks with bench seats, but doesn't make it any stronger. I would still limit the T-5 to no more than a stock 305 or 307 unless you plan to be gentle with it.

Ray

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

I have launched my truck at 5500 on 8 inch slicks many a pass. Best ET to date is a 11.97. Not bad for a driver.

[M5-]

Here's the Gforce link. Are these still guys doing this tranny now that the ownership has changed?

http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp

M5

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

One other thing to look at is a bell housing. These transmissions need to be spot on other wise you will roast the input bearing. I tried hays, lakewood, ( could not get them centered even with offset dowls. Final answer quicktime bell housing. Withing .001 of center with stock dowls. Plus if you plan on spooling that engine up a good bell housing is never a bad idea. If you have ever had a clutch explode or seen the after math, a scatter proof housing would be at the top of your list.

[CSGAS]

That link is the revised "looks like a T-5" that I was talking about. It's all custom-engineered guts to fit a modified casting (as opposed to upgraded parts that, except for one bearing, fit into the unmodified housing with the previous G-Force T-5 kit). It's the current offering.