New member saying hello, and quick VIN question

[denni89627]

Hey everybody, I'm Dennis. I'm in the process of purchasing a '53 half ton from a dealer in Texas. I've been looking for a while and fell in love with this one. It has everything I want (350, disc brakes, nice paint). I live in NY and going to see it in person was out of the question so I hired one of those 3rd party inspection services to check it out mechanically and make sure it's what the dealer represented it as. The inspector sent me about 50 pics and I was very happy with everything. He said it ran great with no rust or body issues. The only thing that scares me is he said there is no VIN tag. I know it has a Texas title so is this a big deal? I did some research here and figured out that the VIN should be in the door jamb only since I obviously don't have the original motor. Do you guys think this is fishy or a problem? It's the only thing about the truck that I'm uneasy about. Maybe this is common for a truck so old, but I'd like to hear from you guys. Thanks and I'm glad to have found the forum. I'll be sure to show you guys some pics when (if, ha) I get the truck.

Dennis

[rhodog77]

have your dmv run the vin number that matches the TX title. if everything is ok you can can get a repop tag. Get a stamp and die set from harbor freight and make a new tag.

http://www.classicparts.com/Paint-De...oducts/848/2/0

That is what I would do. Someone people will tell you to stay clear of it cuz it doesnt have a vin. Put one on it and no one would ever know they
difference. Just my opionion though.

[dwcsr]

All vehicles titled in Texas have to have a vin tag to get a title. Do you know the vin? He should get you a tag or have DPS assign a tag. It should be no problem for him to get a legit tag if the title truely macthes the truck. I would be worried about it.

[rhodog77]

i kinda thought that was weird as well. how did he get a title in the first place. even if he the old tag came off somehow, he could have applied for a state mfgor dmv tag.

[dwcsr]

There are a lot of shady ways to get a title but when you go to get it transfered to your name and registered it usually shows up. If he were to go to a car show and enter it DPS could impound it because there is not vin plate. DPS is not at car shows for crowd control they go to check vins on show cars. For those that don't know DPS is the Department of Public Safety, or State police in some states. If the title is legit the own can apply for a tag. I'm not sure if the AD series had frame numbers or not. If it didn't then it could be a nightmare trying to transfer title with no way to prove the vin is legit. I'll bet it was a title from another truck they found after they built this one. Thats a fairly popular thing to do. Not legal but its done.

[truckdude239]

i'd run if it was me, but i'd ask the owner to appy for a new vin tag legally frist

[OrrieG]

Ditto, have the current owner clean up the mess or walk. It might be easy or it might be very hard or impossible. The dealer will tell you anything to make the sale because they probably have it on consignment and the documents will say they take no responsibility for it being properly titled. The owner won't care after he gets the money. So you end up doing all the work and spending the money so you can enjoy the truck or re-sell it. Do you think the next owner you sell it too will want it without a good VIN tag to match the title?

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by truckdude239

i'd run if it was me, but i'd ask the owner to appy for a new vin tag legally frist

Yep, have them get it straightened out. There is a good chance that the title still has the original engine number on it as I am pretty sure that Texas like a lot of other states used the engine number as the vin up into the 50's.

If there is no tag on the door they will have to go and get a motor change title and an assigned vin number.


Years ago guys had a bad habit of taking the door post tag off these trucks when they did body work and painted them and a lot of them got lost that way. The beat up painted over tag off my truck is sitting in my tool box at the moment but at least I know where it is.

The main thing right now is that the seller needs to get the title and vin thing straightened out if he wants to sell you the truck. if they won't do it then go look for another truck and avoid future hassles down the road.

[rhodog77]

i guess with my project things were a lot different. I bought a bunch of junk parts from junk vehicles. If the project your looking at has money invested in it, which it sounds like it does. You should execpt to have all the right paperwork. I was merely thinking about how you could correct the situation if you did go through with it. If the owner really wants to sell the vehicle, he should have no problem doing the legwork to get a state ID tag with a matching title....even if it raises the price a few bucks, its worth it.

[Atomsplitter]

This is what the repop tag looks like.
I had the serial number etched at one of those kisoks at the mall!
You can pick whatever Font you want.

[denni89627]

Thanks for the input everyone. The dealer had the vin listed as H53k040805 on the website, but the paperwork that I'm supposed to sign has LBA990169 as the vin. Either way I can't find anything on it when searched, but almost all the search websites say they're for '81 or newer vehicles. How the heck am I supposed to verify if the vin is legit? If one of these is truly the vin then I would just stamp it into a new tag but I can't seem to find a way to get that info. I'm kind of pissed off about it because I'm sure they wont be refunding my $500 deposit if I walk, but I'd rather lose that then get stuck with an illegitimate or even stolen truck. The dealer told me he had a clear title, but the inspector said there was no vin anywhere on the truck. What a pain, I was so excited about this one, but the whole thing is starting to stink a bit.

Dennis

[Clay54]

Let me start by saying there is no VIN number on these trucks. I bought my truck in Dec 1969, from a Chevy dealer here in Texas, and am looking at the title which states "Motor or Vehicle Identification Number" *******F54X. This is identified as a 1954 Chevy 6 cylinder built in Flint, Michigan. Not sure what the "X" is - maybe something like heavy duty clutch or something like that.

Anyway, I assume this is the original engine. The truck I bought and the title I have is for a truck that had a 1949 Cadillac engine, transmission, rear end, AC, power steering and brakes. Not knowing what I know now, I removed the Cadillac in 1970 and replaced it with a 1968 327 and 350 turbo to further complicate the matter.

This truck has not had tags on it for about 30 years but was a daily driver in Texas from 1970 to about 1984 or so. Obviously, there has never been any reason for anyone to check this vehicle against any type identification. Now, I am going to do a S10 frame swap and another engine change. Hopefully the DPS can do their thing and give me a VIN number when I get it completed. I don't anticipate any problem.

I guess my point is as long as you are in Texas, you would not have a problem. Clay

[OrrieG]

Contact the DMV office in or near the town where the dealer is. If you get a gearhead friendly person they should be able to run the numbers and see what pops up (I am assuming you are not in the same area, if you are then go down to the DMV office). I used to have a connection at the Idaho DMV because I bought some Mustang parts from her husband for my kids car in the 90's. I sure hope she hasn't retired.... If you get a bureaucrat you might need to try multiple offices. Most states don't have the infor online because bad guys crusing the info looking for locations for things to steal.

[VA72C10]

Originally Posted by denni89627

Thanks for the input everyone. The dealer had the vin listed as H53k040805 on the website, but the paperwork that I'm supposed to sign has LBA990169 as the vin. Either way I can't find anything on it when searched, but almost all the search websites say they're for '81 or newer vehicles. How the heck am I supposed to verify if the vin is legit? If one of these is truly the vin then I would just stamp it into a new tag but I can't seem to find a way to get that info. I'm kind of pissed off about it because I'm sure they wont be refunding my $500 deposit if I walk, but I'd rather lose that then get stuck with an illegitimate or even stolen truck. The dealer told me he had a clear title, but the inspector said there was no vin anywhere on the truck. What a pain, I was so excited about this one, but the whole thing is starting to stink a bit.

Dennis

I would check with DMV but it sounds illegal to me. After checking with DMV you could likely get your 500 back by saying....I'll be coming with a state police officer to get my refund

Here's a couple of states laws that make this illegal in those states...

Straight out of the FMVSS

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers


(a) A person who -

(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or

(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal
or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a
removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person
specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person
knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are -

(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary
for the repair;

(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;
and

(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters
a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the
Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner
of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate,
tamper with or alter the decal or device by -

(i) the owner or his authorized agent;

(ii) applicable State or local law; or

(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to

implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term -

(1) "identification number" means a number or symbol that is
inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter
301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;

(2) "motor vehicle" has the meaning given that term in section
32101 of title 49;

(3) "motor vehicle demolisher" means a person, including any
motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is
engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor
vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as
either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;

(4) "motor vehicle scrap processor" means a person -

(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor

vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap

for recycling;

(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process

metallic scrap into prepared grades; and

(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person
relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle
part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term
"tampers with" includes covering a program decal or device affixed
to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention
Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.

EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1996 AMENDMENT
Amendment by Pub. L. 104-294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see
section 604(d) of Pub. L. 104-294, set out as a note under section
13 of this title.
Last modified: April 13, 2006


Michigan


750.415 Concealing or misrepresenting identity of motor vehicle or mechanical device as misdemeanor or felony; evidence of violation; confiscation; sale at public auction; revocation of dealer's license; vehicle identification plate and applicable labels; motor vehicle or part with identification number removed.
Sec. 415.

(1) A person who, without the intent to mislead another as to the identity of the vehicle, conceals or misrepresents the identity of a motor vehicle or of a mechanical device by removing or defacing the manufacturer's serial number or the engine or motor number on the motor vehicle, or by replacing a part of the motor vehicle or mechanical device bearing the serial number or engine or motor number of the vehicle with a new part upon which the proper serial number or engine or motor number has not been stamped, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

(2) A person who, with the intent to mislead another as to the identity of a vehicle, conceals or misrepresents the identity of a motor vehicle or of a mechanical device by removing or defacing the manufacturer's serial number or the engine or motor number on the motor vehicle, or by replacing a part of the motor vehicle or mechanical device bearing the serial number or engine or motor number of the vehicle with a new part upon which the proper serial number or engine or motor number has not been stamped, is guilty of a felony, and if the person is a licensed dealer, the dealer's license shall be revoked.

(3) In all prosecutions under this section, possession by a person of a motor vehicle or of a mechanical device with the manufacturer's serial number or the engine or motor number removed, defaced, destroyed or altered or with a part bearing the number or numbers replaced by one on which the proper number does not appear, shall be prima facie evidence of violation of this section.

(4) If the identification of a motor vehicle or a mechanical device has been removed, defaced, or altered as provided in this section and the real identity of the motor vehicle or mechanical device cannot be determined, the motor vehicle or mechanical device shall be subject to confiscation by the state and shall be sold at public auction, put to official use by the government agency seizing the vehicle, or rendered scrap. If the items are confiscated from a licensed vehicle dealer, the dealer's license shall be revoked.

(5) A person shall not knowingly possess, buy, deliver, or offer to buy, sell, exchange, or give away any manufacturer's vehicle identification number plate, federal safety certification label, antitheft label, posident die stamps, secretary of state vehicle identification label, rosette rivet, or any facsimile thereof. This subsection does not apply to a motor vehicle manufacturer, a motor vehicle parts supplier under contract with a motor vehicle manufacturer, or a law enforcement officer in the official performance of his or her duties or to a motor vehicle in which a manufacturer's vehicle identification plate and each of the applicable labels listed in this subsection have been installed as prescribed by law. A person who violates this subsection is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years, a fine of not more than $10,000.00, or both. If the person who violates this subsection is a licensed dealer or repair facility, its license shall be revoked.

(6) A person shall not buy, receive, or obtain control of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with the intent to sell or otherwise dispose of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part knowing that an identification number of that motor vehicle or motor vehicle part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered. This subsection does not apply to a motor vehicle obtained from or at the direction of a law enforcement agency. A person who violates this subsection is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years, a fine of not more than $20,000.00, or both.

(7) As used in this section:

(a) "Antitheft label" means a label containing the vehicle identification number affixed to a motor vehicle by the manufacturer in accordance with subtitle VI of title 49 of the United States Code, 49 U.S.C. 30101 to 33118.

(b) "Federal safety certification label" means a label affixed to a motor vehicle that certifies that the motor vehicle conforms to current safety standards at the time of production and displays the vehicle identification number.

(c) "Motor vehicle" means a device in, upon, or by which a person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a street, highway, or waterway, whether subject to or exempt from registration, except a device exclusively moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.

(d) "Posident die stamps" means specially designed die stamps used by motor vehicle manufacturers to produce unique letters and numbers when stamping vehicle identification numbers upon vehicle identification plates, tags, and parts affixed to a motor vehicle.

(e) "Rosette rivet" means a special rivet designed to prevent removal or tampering with a vehicle identification number plate affixed by the manufacturer to a motor vehicle and that, when used to affix a vehicle identification number plate, forms 5 or 6 petals at the rivet head.


History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.415 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 494, Eff. Dec. 13, 1978 ;-- Am. 2000, Act 217, Eff. Oct. 1, 2000

Section: Previous 750.411t 750.411u 750.411v 750.412 750.413 750.414 750.414a 750.415 750.416 750.417 750.417a 750.418 750.419 750.420 750.421 Next
Last modified: March 26, 2010

[meter swinger]

Pass on it. Trust me ive been down this road its not worth the headache and you wont be able to enjoy the truck you just paid good $$$ for. Ask me how i know pass on it there are other fish in the pond!
Posted via Mobile Device

[dwcsr]

Originally Posted by denni89627

Thanks for the input everyone. The dealer had the vin listed as H53k040805 on the website, but the paperwork that I'm supposed to sign has LBA990169 as the vin. Either way I can't find anything on it when searched, but almost all the search websites say they're for '81 or newer vehicles. How the heck am I supposed to verify if the vin is legit? If one of these is truly the vin then I would just stamp it into a new tag but I can't seem to find a way to get that info. I'm kind of pissed off about it because I'm sure they wont be refunding my $500 deposit if I walk, but I'd rather lose that then get stuck with an illegitimate or even stolen truck. The dealer told me he had a clear title, but the inspector said there was no vin anywhere on the truck. What a pain, I was so excited about this one, but the whole thing is starting to stink a bit.

Dennis

H53k040805 is a 53 comm 3100 1/2 ton truck made in Kansas. The LBA 990169 is a motor number for a 53 216 ci engine. Contact the DMV here 1-888-DMVGOTX (368-4689). and explain your issue and they can direct you.

Here is a picture of that vin plate if this is the truck

http://www.harwellmotors.com/muscle-...kup/h53k040805

Have them send you a close up of this picture. It may be your inspector didn't know what he was looking at.