cheap low rider

[kieth]

I sent a private message to Robnolimit the other day about a build I am thinking of doing and how I was going to proceed with the build since it is on a strict budget. Here is a link to the questions I asked him......He asked that I transfer that here because he thought everyone could benefit from his answers.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/p...m&pmid=2199875





I just did not want to retype everything hope this works. Kieth

ps Thanks Rob look forward to hearing from you.

[chevy_man5]

It doesn't work. This is all that shows up:

Invalid Private Message specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator.

[VA72C10]

If you simply highlight the message (or click in the message field and hold down control and the letter a) then once highlighted hold control and the letter c. Then edit your post and hold down control and the letter v. It'll copy it all over for you.

[lolife99]

Just copy and paste the info.

[kieth]

Will try this again: Sent a private message to Rob no limit about a budget build I am trying to do, he askes me to start a new thread here because he thought everyone would benefit from his answers to my stupid questions.

Here are the questions I asked him:

Originally Posted by kieth
I am just getting ready to build rat rod 65 chevy, as I have looked around at all the parts available I thought that I would try to build this truck on a budget and just try to not totally screw it up. I just want a truck that goes down the road , rides good , and goes as low as it can at rest for show. I also do not want to build something that handles bad. Here is what I thought I would try because it is inexpensive and it solves some of the problems of going low just for show.

1. using inexpensive firestone 8" bags (11" aired up, 4" no air. front and rear

2. Will cut the front lower a arms and box them in to allow the air bag clearance and make it go lower. Will also take your advise and am using belltech -3" spindles.

3. At the rear is where I am not quite sure if I am going about this correctly, my first assumption is that after adding a 10" bridge, the limitation to how low the truck will go is the trailing arms, so I propose to remount the stock trailing arms to the outside of the frame and run them straight back to the rear end and reattach them under the axle housing.

Then we will make a bracket that will clear the front of the rear tire and rest on the newly relocated trailing arm.

Shocks will be relocated to the rear of the trailing arm and run vertical to a new support bar (coming off the bridge)

We are not running a high hp motor and do not plan on autocrossing......will this suspension set up do alright in normal operation ? (I am unsure about using the trailing arms straight instead of on angle, but this way the truck can get very low --at a low cost)

ps will add a longer panhard rod that is adjustable

will move the fuel tank to the rear of the truck

do we need a v support bar or some sort of bars that keep the axle from wrapping up ??? maybe a bar on each side of the top of the rear end that attaches to the side of the frame (like the top 4 link bar?)

Appreciate your time, would like to call and discuss this on my nickel, if you have time would love to talk with you. Kieth Tulsa, OK 918-446-2245

I just finished my first build, a 66 gmc swb fleetside, I did put air ride under it in the rear, but it is my daily driver so I did not want to go to radical, I am thinking of building this 65 chevy to sell and may very well leave it with a 6 cyclinder 3 speed......just put discs on the front, ps, power brakes, everything on a budget.....

my gmc

http://kieth.smugmug.com/Trucks/66-G..._nS2QZT6-XL-LB

The patina'd 65 lwb next project truck:

http://kieth.smugmug.com/Trucks/65-C...92_aqMWZ-XL-LB



OK, do me a favor, and move this to the "Make it handle" thread, I think I can help out, and I'm sure a lot of other people would want to read this. Thanks.
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[SCOTI]

Without modifying the front x-member, the lower a-arms are the limiting factor of how low the truck can go. In stock mounting location relative to the chassis, the a-arms & center of the x-member will be what limits the drop (once they touch the earth, you won't go any lower).

With that limitation, there shouldn't be any need to relocate the truck arms. The bag placement would need to be moved, but the factory T/A location will get you as low as the front will drop.

Step notch
Relocate the bags to behind/in-front of the rear end
Relocate the shocks
Use a long style aftermarket Panhard bar or watt's set-up

[kieth]

If I either z'd the frame or put in a porterbilt or scots front end would I then need to do get the rear of the truck lower or could it stay lowered with the bridge and maybe just block up the trailing arms ???


In another light I did get my 2.5" drop spindle in today on my 66 gmc, looks like I am going to have to c notch the rear so I have more travel for the rear of my truck, it drives great and makes the whole truck look more aggressive. Here is the first picture of it. May go to smaller tires with lower aspect ratio to get it down a little more. Kieth

http://kieth.smugmug.com/Trucks/66-G..._9qGFfrc-X2-LB

[robnolimit]

Kieth, thanks for re-posting for everyone. I'll try to stay with the "cheap and low" idea, but we shouldn't give up drivability or safety. Some questions are, How low? and How cheap? and what is your skill and equipment level. You mentioned some cutting and boxing of the lower arms, so I guess you can cut measure and weld. Thats a big plus. As Scoti said, the crossmember and inner ptvits of the lower arms are the first real problem. Lets start there.
You can buy a new crossmember. - not cheap. You can 'Z' the frame up - lots of other problems created. You can section the OE crossmember - nice, but lots of work. You can 'channel' (body drop for the new comers to rodding) the entire body down 2" or 3" - lots of sheet metal work, but an inexpensive solution for the whole truck, or you can raise the front crossmember - still some work, but solves a few problems. Think about the options, but you need to pick ONE to solve the crossmember issue. Got a client walking in, back soon.

[robnolimit]

So, I re-read your post, and looked at some picts of your other truck. It seems that your ok with cutting and welding. I don't really agree with the idea of moving the arms outboard. This will create a lot of suspension binding - not good. I'm not sure what bags you have by the description, but I recomend a 2500 lb bag in front (double bellows), and a 1200/1500 lb bag in the rear (tapered slider). For now, I'm going to stay on the "cheap and low" plan.
Reality 101 says, your going to pay, one way or another. thats life. So if it's not with $$$$ then your gonna pay with time (labor). So, being a worker myself, what to do.
Lets add up some numbers.
1. Channel it 2". yes, a lot of work for 2", but if you channel it more than that, the cab starts to get pretty small inside. And, you can get 2" without causing other probems, - Radiator, hood hinge, .... This drops the body 2", but all the suspension is still stock. I have done this in appx 4 days, or 30 hrs give or take. more on this later. You will need about 40 bucks in sheet metal.
2. Raise the front crossmember 1 1/2". To me this is the easy way comared to sectioning, and you get the same result. You will need to notch the crossmember for the oilpan, and refit motor mounts. All this can be done in a day, 8 to 10 hrs. This will be a big help in ground clearance later.
3. 2 1/2" drop spindles. I'm not sure about 3", never used any that gave more than 2 1/2", - no matter what the description said. appx cost $250
4. Out back, modify the frame as I just outlined on the "Make it Handle" thread. This is how I did the JT. It gives you 4" drop with a stock height spring, and lots of room under the bed floor. Plan on 12 hrs, $20 bucks in steel.
5. Put a 2" block in the rear.
Now, you have a truck that is dropped 6" ft. and 8" rr, and, STILL has FULL susension travel.

[robnolimit]

Next, if you bag it like a reasonably smart guy would do, and not go crazy, at ride height you'll be 2" down in front and back. Now, total drop, at ride hieght is down 8" and 10". Letting the air out should get you 4" all around, for a 12"/14" drop.- and the rocker has just hit the ground. Throw in some money for grinding disks, welding wire, and black rustoleom, and new urathane cab mounts, you may spend $500 bucks. - This does not iclude the cost of the air ride install. Now, spend a couple of bucks. A good Panhard rod kit, front and rear swaybars, rear shock mount kit, and some good shocks.
The better your truck drives, the more you will drive it, - and enjoy it.

If you, or any one wants to discuss any step in depth, let me know, and we will.

[gringoloco]

Rob,

Taking your invite to further discuss. Please don't take any of this as bashing; just questions and commentary to clarify for myself and others

Originally Posted by robnolimit

...I recomend a 2500 lb bag in front (double bellows), and a 1200/1500 lb bag in the rear (tapered slider)...

Are you talking trailing arm suspension? Never seen a sleeve bag on the arm due to misalignment and leverage issues. Usually see convoluteds in this application. Not saying it's wrong, just never seen it done.

Originally Posted by robnolimit

...Reality 101 says, your going to pay, one way or another. thats life. So if it's not with $$$$ then your gonna pay with time (labor)...

Agree %100

Originally Posted by robnolimit

...1. Channel it 2". yes, a lot of work for 2", but if you channel it more than that, the cab starts to get pretty small inside. And, you can get 2" without causing other probems, - Radiator, hood hinge, .... This drops the body 2", but all the suspension is still stock. I have done this in appx 4 days, or 30 hrs give or take. more on this later. You will need about 40 bucks in sheet metal...

LOTS of work in this including raising bed floor, lowering bumper mounts, sectioning core support, fabbing front wheel tubs, etc, not to mention the unforeseen interferences caused by moving everything around.

Originally Posted by robnolimit

...2. Raise the front crossmember 1 1/2". To me this is the easy way comared to sectioning, and you get the same result. You will need to notch the crossmember for the oilpan, and refit motor mounts. All this can be done in a day, 8 to 10 hrs. This will be a big help in ground clearance later...

Do you mean to channel the crossmember for the 'rails, or vice-versa? What are your ideas for engine mounts? Would be cool to see some more detailed pics of JT in this area. It may take some of us 8-10 hours just to pull the engine and trans also, need to mention that if not going with R&P, steering clearance issues will need to be resolved.

Originally Posted by robnolimit

...3. 2 1/2" drop spindles. I'm not sure about 3", never used any that gave more than 2 1/2", - no matter what the description said. appx cost $250

Agreed again. Cheap, easy, effective.

Originally Posted by robnolimit

...4. Out back, modify the frame as I just outlined on the "Make it Handle" thread. This is how I did the JT. It gives you 4" drop with a stock height spring, and lots of room under the bed floor. Plan on 12 hrs, $20 bucks in steel.

I reviewed your notes on this mod and really like it. There is still the need to re-work bed mounts, as the front two are now at different angles than before and we now have at least 6" bed floor raised with the body drop.

Originally Posted by robnolimit

...5. Put a 2" block in the rear.
Now, you have a truck that is dropped 6" ft. and 8" rr, and, STILL has FULL susension travel.

Awesome! I was thinking, instead of the 'body drop', 2" drop coils all around could be seen as an acceptable amount of suspension travel loss and save a TON of time for not a whole bunch of coin.

Some very cool ideas here- thank you for sharing your expertise and thinking outside the box

[kieth]

Front Crossmember-suspension-frame options:

1. It looks to me like the front end is the main problem, we are really limited as to how much we can make a stock front end go low. here are the options for the front end:

a. 2.5 to 3" drop spindles

b-1. lower coil springs
b-2. 8" air bags re 2600's----8" diam closed 4" down--11" inflated
b-3. bottom of the stock A arm can be cut out to allow the bag to sit deeper in the lower control arm

c. frame modifications:

1. z the frame--------watch out for the oil pan, biggest point of interferance is really the steering arm and the cross shaft-idler arm after you z the frame.....

d. Front end modification:

1. lower tubular control arms
2. Upper tubular contorl arms
3. Add a scotts or porterbilt front suspension kit. front end will have to be notched for steering rack.... highest cost truck goes lowest


Stock Rear suspension Options:

1. lower coil springs

2. Air bags
a. in location of the coils few mods needed
b. on top of rear end inside frame----brackets, relocate shocks, change panhard rod length
c. bags behind rear axle, relocate shocks, panhard etc.

3. Notch the frame
Add a bridge


4. Change the rear suspension
a. modify stock trailing arms by spacing the beam down below the rear axle.
b. rotate the center crossmember brackets upside down (to keep the angle correct on the rear end)
c. Modify the center crossmember by increasing the top clearance with the driveline (or move the carrier bearing up depending on the Wb of the truck)
d. Add some sort of a modified crossmember which gives the correct clearance.


Man i gets to be pretty hard to figure out which way to go too many choices and not enough pictures ......... Kieth

[robnolimit]

Well, I know it's not the norm, but I like the 9000 tapered slider on trailing arm trucks. The ride quality is way better than if you use 2500 bags. I've never had any issues with fit or miss-alignment. But, I always 'fit' the bag/cup/mount set. We completely compress the suspension, until the axle is against the bump, then measure tha space from the arm to the upper mount pad. Then we trim the cup so that the bag still has 1/4" to 1/2" of travel with the suspension bottomed out. The shock should also have 1/4" to 1/2" travel left at this point. Here's the math on the bags. 1600 lb @ 100 psi. 2 bags = 3200 lbs. The arms net a 20% leverage on the gas, yielding 2560 lb capacity @ 100 psi. Ave. truck wieghs 1275 on the rear, leaving 1285 lb capacity, 285 more than the 1/2 ton rating. Easy to see that we are using appx 1/2 of the load cap, so it takes appx 1/2 of the psi at ride hieght. Most ride at 55-60 psi with these bags.

[kieth]

I currently have the 2600 series bags on the rear of my 66 gmc and only run 23psi, I will be changing to the 9000 tapered series,, the rear of my truck jumps all over the place due to too low a pressure. Thanks, Rob Kieth


Robno limit, in reference to our skill level I am a class 8 road truck dealer and install dump beds, steerable axles, alter wheelbases etc..... compared to the truck frames we normally work on these are easy they are made of a lot softer material. Thanks for sharing all your expertise. Kieth

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by kieth

I currently have the 2600 series bags on the rear of my 66 gmc and only run 23psi, I will be changing to the 9000 tapered series,, the rear of my truck jumps all over the place due to too low a pressure. Thanks, Rob Kieth


Robno limit, in reference to our skill level I am a class 8 road truck dealer and install dump beds, steerable axles, alter wheelbases etc..... compared to the truck frames we normally work on these are easy they are made of a lot softer material. Thanks for sharing all your expertise. Kieth

The recommended size for the truck-arm 2-link arrangement is what's commonly referred to as the 2500's (RE-6's, Firestone F6781/267c's). This size would require more pressure to achieve the same extended height vs. the larger 2600's. The increased pressure w/the smaller bag would net a better ride vs. your current low pressure 2600's.

Also, the 9000's will require more room between the mounts vs. the dbl convoluted bags (2500's & 2600's = 5-6"; 9000's = 9" @ avg. ride heights). What's your plan there?

[robnolimit]

Scoti, your right on the pec RH on the 9000 bags. I usually have them at 7" to 8" on C-10's, (low, empty, cruise hieght) I've never had wear issues but this is on the low side of the operating range.
A buddy of mine came by today in my old 65 C-10. I did a 2" channel on this truck years ago, and wanted a look again before answering the comments about this mod. While the bed floor has to be raised, it has to be done anyway if your really going low. the cuts went as follows, on the sides, about a 1/2" inside the inner rocker seam, front to back and up the toe board to the turn up of the firewall. In front, across the bottom edge of the firewall, and then again 2" above that from side to side. in back, across the back cab panel, 1/2" above the floor, and again 2" above that. When the cab set back down, I just welded across the front seam atthe base of the firewall and across the rear cab panel. For the sides, I made two step plates, 2" tall = 1/2" 90 deg lip in at the top, and 1/2" 90 deg lip out at the bottom. 16 ga. these fit front to back on the floor, and last, fabbed in a filler for the toe board gap. It has no rear front inner fenders, just the rear 1/3 of the OE part acts as a splash apron, we don't get a lot of rain here. Up front, I cut the frame and dropped the core support and bumper mounts to match the 2" drop. So, it has a full core support. Thats what I had thought, but i wanted to be sure. Not to tough once you commit to it.

[robnolimit]

I know I know, I wanted to get picts, but no time, He'll be back in a few days and I'll get some.