Title and VIN for sale

[kilomanjaro]

have a clean title and vin for a 72 blazer. 50 dollars shipped to you. email me at kilomanjaro63@hotmail.com or post. thanks
john

[1970cstblazer]

I see this all of the time here and I cannot understand why.

Don't you guys know that this sort of thing is a federal offense?

[kilomanjaro]

Ok---72 blazer for sale(good title and VIN plate) BODY and frame are completely rusted away!! Will ship what is left (title and VIN)to anybody who wants it for 50 dollars.
john

[1970blazin]

Kilomanjaro.... Pretty funny!

[1970cstblazer]

This is a serious matter folks.




As one who in the past has been burned on a vehicle with the VIN swapped, I don't find it the least bit funny...






I have seen people who have done the same thing end up in jail and paid huge fines for selling the tags/paperwork.

[1970blazin]

Sorry 1970cst- I didn't realize it was illegal and all. Thanks for the info. No hard feelings eh?

[bouncytruck]

I thought that the VIN rules were state by state. I didn't know it was a Federal issue. What exactly is illegal about it? Is it so you don't put a new VIN on a stolen vehicle?

[1970cstblazer]

1970Blazin- no hard feelings



Bouncytruck: Yes, it is illegal due to what some unscrupulous individuals have done with stolen vehicles.

Also, in regards to classic or muscle cars, people grab the vin and paperwork off a rusty desirable musclecar, and place it on a much less valuable car to increase its value.

Examples: GTO tags on a LeMans.

Chevelle SS tags on a Malibu.

Road Runner tags on a Satellite.

Mach 1 tags on a regular Mustang.


I know with this era trucks, not much info is provided on the VIN, but if the VIN and glovebox door sticker off a Cheyenne Super were to be placed on a regular C-10, the value would be enhanced, plus the truck would be something it wasn't.

I may be exaggerating here, but I do not want someone else to be the victim of fraud.

[1970blazin]

What happened to you with one of your vehicles regarding this matter 1970cst...If you don't mind me asking?? I think you are right if someone is taking a vin for dishonest reasons.

[1970cstblazer]

Years back, I bought a GTO that after further investigation was originally a LeMans.

I ended up taking a loss on the whole deal because I was honest when I sold it.

The deed was done many owners back, so I could not pursue legal action against the previous owner.

I know of a few other fellow car collectors that have had this happen to them at one point or another.

Now I am very careful to check VIN stampings on cowls and frames to see if they match.

[kilomanjaro]

1970cstblazer--I understand where you are coming from but on these trucks I don't think it is quite so serios a concern--what if someone pulls a completely rust free 72 blazer out of somebodies fence row--but it doesn't have a title. That person can either put a salvage title on it(which devalues a truely nice truck) or put a title and VIN plate off a rusted out blazer onto it and get it back onto the road. I don't think there is anything wrong with selling a title and VIN, unless you are intentionally trying to commit fraud. And I agree with what bouncytruck said, states have there own laws that govern how old vehicles can be titled. This is just my opinion, just as you have yours---no hard feelings, but I believe in keeping these old trucks on the road, lest we all fall into the catagory of driving imported SUV's
John
kilomanjaro63@hotmail.com

[rickspickuppart]

the only time it's legal is in the real early vehicles like the 34 fords for example they didn't have vin's just serial numbers and titles. That is why you see some many fiberglass street rods that don't have to go thru emissions because they are "legaly" an old car, otherwise they would have to hit the emission marks for a 2003 (or what ever year it was first registered).

[70 Jimmy]

OK guys, not to tick anyone off but there seems to be a few too many "lawyers" on the board. I need to see some documentation that backs up the "federal offense" statement. I've heard that before but no one can back it up in writing. There are a few vendors that sell Vin tags and titles here in Oregon. The same vendors have been doing it for years and it seems to be perfectly legal. I have a 72 Blazer VIN and title from a scrapped rig and I'd really like to know if it's legal. I know you guys believe you know what the law is but I need to see it in writing. I've done a search on federal laws and vehicle titles and can't find anything that states it's a "federal offense". Once again, not trying to tick anyone off, just NEED to see proof.

[1970cstblazer]

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia...9/crm01375.htm



1375 Proving Violations of 18 U.S.C. § 511

"It is not necessary to allege in the indictment the absence of the exceptions contained in subsection 18 U.S.C. § 511 (b). See this Manual at 226 (Negating Statutory Exceptions). The use of the term "unlawfully" excludes the coverage of the lawful removal or destruction of a number. A reason why you may wish to specifically describe the altered VIN is to establish with some specificity the actual motor vehicle which is the subject matter of the indictment. To prove a violation of Section 511, it must be established that: (1) the defendant knowingly removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered an identification number on a road motor vehicle (or component); (2) the identification number was one required by the United States Department of Transportation (DOT); and (3) such conduct was not done lawfully (e.g., defendant knew the vehicle was stolen and was trying to conceal its identity).

The essence of the offense is to show a removal, obliteration, tampering with, or alteration by the defendant. Eyewitness testimony is the best evidence to prove that the defendant removed or falsified the number. Proof of a removal of a number should be easily accomplished by persons familiar with what numbers should be present on a motor vehicle or part.

Proof of the falsification of a VIN will require in most cases expert testimony. Law enforcement experts may be able to detect "concealed" numbers placed by the manufacturer on the motor vehicle. From such information, the original VIN can be reconstructed. If you know the make and model year of the motor vehicle in question, analysis of what the VIN characters for such a vehicle should have been will help establish a falsification.

In regard to the present 17 characters VINs, each character or group of characters has meaning. The falsification of a number can be established by experts from the law enforcement community, the National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB), and the manufacturers. The meaning of the various characteristics of the VIN for a particular vehicle can be explained by these experts.

The manufacturer's production records will reflect whether a vehicle having a certain VIN was ever manufactured for that model year. If the criminal has duplicated an existing VIN from another vehicle, the manufacturer's records along with the VIN will reveal the particular characteristics of the vehicle having the original (i.e., authentic) VIN, thus permitting a comparison of the physical attributes of the two vehicles to determine to which vehicle the VIN was actually originally assigned by the manufacturer.

In most prosecutable cases, your expert witnesses will be able to establish the identity of the original VIN. However, if that is not possible, a successful prosecution should still be possible by showing that the vehicle was manufactured by a particular manufacturer, that such manufacturer always certified compliance with the DOT standard(s) (which compliance meant the vehicle had the required VIN (or component numbers)) and that the VIN (or component numbers) on the vehicle (or part) was not one the manufacturer assigned to any of its vehicles (or parts).

The evidence must establish an unlawful removal or falsification. The lawful removals can be found in 18 U.S.C. §§ 511(b) and 512(a)(3). Under subsection 511(b), these lawful exceptions do not apply if the person knows that the motor vehicle or part is stolen. Except for the area of "repair," these exceptions should cause no significant enforcement problem. The relevant portion of H.R.Rep. No. 1089 on H.R. 6257, 98th Cong., 2d Sess. 23-25 (1984), makes clear that the "repair" exception is intended for the protection of the honest body shop operator who while fixing a part does some injury to its identification number. The exception "is not intended to apply to the operators of "chop shops,' who remove such parts - not repairing or recycling them for lawful purposes." Most of the states that are parties to the interstate compact, which created the Vehicle Equipment Safety Commission (VESC), have established under their respective state laws, procedures for the restoration and replacement of missing identification numbers. See Regulation VESC-18, Standardized Replacement Vehicle Identification Number System."

For further discussion of 18 U.S.C. § 511, see this Manual at 1375.

[krazy_texan]

i dont have written proof that this is true but i do work at a salvage yard and have been told by my boss that the only time he can sell a vin plate and title is when it is on a car that is to be crushed and that does not have a salvage title on it, if it has a salvage title on it then it is no longer ever aloud to see the road again

[krazy_texan]

i dont have written proof that this is true but i do work at a salvage yard and have been told by my boss that the only time he can sell a vin plate and title is when it is on a car that is to be crushed and that does not have a salvage title on it, if it has a salvage title on it then it is no longer ever aloud to see the road again

[70 Jimmy]

To prove a violation of Section 511, it must be established that: (1) the defendant knowingly removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered an identification number on a road motor vehicle (or component); (2) the identification number was one required by the United States Department of Transportation (DOT); and (3) such conduct was not done lawfully (e.g., defendant knew the vehicle was stolen and was trying to conceal its identity).

Cool. There you have it. Under Section 511,

To prove a violation of Section 511, it must be established that: (3) such conduct was not done lawfully (e.g., defendant knew the vehicle was stolen and was trying to conceal its identity).

So, it's not unlawful to sell a non-stolen VIN/title.

Thanks for finding that info.