New direction>SM465 is out-NV4500 is in

[SunSoaked]

I just realized that my plan to install the ranger splitter and all the associated "snowball" effects could be replaced with an easier, simpler and cheaper alternative.

Most of the stuff I have to purchase, change or modify anyway include: the ranger ($1400), hydraulic clutch, bellhousing, rebuild kit for the SM465, input shaft, adapter and rebuild kit for the NP205, modifing both driveshafts, moving the engine fwd, etc.

A little research revealed I can buy new/used NV4500s all day long between $1000-1500. I'll worry about a late model (32 spline) T-case afterwards.

For a "mostly" daily driver, the first gear ratios (6.54 vs 5.61) is insignificant, but the 27% overdrive that 5th gear provides is what I really need. With the 4.56 gears, I end up with the same ratio in the end either way with a much cleaner package.

[67gmcstepside]

I have been ponderring the same. After driving the SM465 around for the last few weeks I wished I went in a different direction as well. Ashame I spent 1200 for a complete rebuild. I'll be monitoring your conversation.

[snj8198]

Originally Posted by SunSoaked

I just realized that my plan to install the ranger splitter and all the associated "snowball" effects could be replaced with an easier, simpler and cheaper alternative.

Most of the stuff I have to purchase, change or modify anyway include: the ranger ($1400), hydraulic clutch, bellhousing, rebuild kit for the SM465, input shaft, adapter and rebuild kit for the NP205, modifing both driveshafts, moving the engine fwd, etc.

A little research revealed I can buy new/used NV4500s all day long between $1000-1500. I'll worry about a late model (32 spline) T-case afterwards.

For a "mostly" daily driver, the first gear ratios (6.54 vs 5.61) is insignificant, but the 27% overdrive that 5th gear provides is what I really need. With the 4.56 gears, I end up with the same ratio in the end either way with a much cleaner package.

It's about time you seen the light!

For daily driving you'll want the 1996 and up NV with the 5.61 ratio. The 6.54 ratio is too wide even when paired with motors producing a broad flat torque curve. The wide gate falls below the power band and leads to jerky shifting and the motor struggles to get back into the band when pulling a load.

You have your choice to either convert to hydraulic clutch or purchase the AA bellhousing and stay mechanical. I chose mechanical and am very happy with the Centerforce dual friction 12".

I would run the NP241 t-case that's used behind the NV4500, do a slip yoke eliminator kit on it, and don't look back. It will save you a time and a lot of money.

I'm happy for you and your choice. I like my motor but i love my transmission!

Good luck to you, do your homework.

-steve

[SunSoaked]

Thanks for the confirmation Steve.

Regarding the 5.61 vs 6.54, I meant 1st gear in the 4500 vs the 465. I notice there was an early version of the 4500 with lower 1st gears.

I want hydraulic for sure. No more Z-bar for me.

Can I assume the NV4500 bellhousings have bolt patterns that mate with the early chevy engines (pre LS)?

[snj8198]

yes they do mount but there was some differences pertaining to the hydro clutch set up (specifics escape me at the moment), interference with the front shaft or something to that affect. DirtyLarry and a few others have converted and worked out those kinks. maybe they can chime in.

[71Cinch]

Very interested in this same swap. Just need to find the NV-4500!!

[SunSoaked]

High Impact Transmission & Gear make a complete NV4500 conversion package. They gave me a very detailed quote today based on the following info I gave them:

69 K10, 350 chevy, NP205

I asked for a quote for the following items:

NV 4500 (new), bellhousing, hydraulic clutch (master cylinder, m/c bracket, hoses, slave cylinder), clutch disk, pressure plate, T.O bearing, new flywheel, NV4500 specific lubricant (4 qts), 32 spline input gear for the NP205, linkage bracket, NV4500-NP205 adapter.

Shipping $200
Grand total= $3563.00

A little more than I was hoping but, I have to consider everything is brand new. I can get NV4500s in Phoenix (used) for around 1000-1200. I'm going to search the wrecking yards or try to find a complete donor truck and get everything off it before going this route. Some of this stuff dont "wear out" (e.g.bellhousing), so it doesn't have to be new. A new one is $310. I'm sure I can save money by putting in a little (maybe alot) of "sweat equity"

I'm also leaning towards using the NP241 and avoiding the NP205 hassels altogether. I'm not building a hardcore rock crawler. From what I have read, the 241 is a very versatile and simple t-case. That opens the door to finding a matched set (NV4500/NP241) and not having to deal with adapters, etc.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by snj8198

It's about time you seen the light!

For sure! Not sure why anybody would entertain the idea of a range splitter when NV4500’s are readily available and easy to swap in. It has been a year and half and 8,000 miles since my NV4500 swap and I love it! The second best powertrain upgrade done to this thing. In fact, shortly I am getting ready to do it all over again in my ’89 Polar Bear Suburban this winter but this time I am using a NP241 transfercase to keep costs down plus the Sub already as has a 32 spline NP241 in it already.

The only problem I’ve had with my NV4500 is the Advance Adapters supplied rear transmission mount bolts pulled the treads clear out of the AA trans to tcase adapter on a AZ trip in May. I ended up having to drill the holes straight through and use longer bolts with nuts at the top. Not too sure about the quality of some of the AA pieces these days.

[snj8198]

the Advance Adapters supplied rear transmission mount bolts pulled the treads clear out of the AA trans to tcase adapter

I did the same on mine. There's enough space on the top for a nylock, why thread the aluminum? Punch through with longer hardware.

I'm also leaning towards using the NP241 and avoiding the NP205 hassles altogether. I'm not building a hardcore rock crawler. From what I have read, the 241 is a very versatile and simple t-case.

You're not wrong by going that route. The NV/32 spline/205 combo is a conversation piece but it is by no means necessary for a daily driver/weekend warrior.

The NV/241 is a fine combo, just consider replacing the slip yoke on the 241 with an eliminator kit and you have a wonderful trans/t-case combo for much cheaper than adapting a 205.

[SunSoaked]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

For sure! Not sure why anybody would entertain the idea of a range splitter when NV4500’s are readily available and easy to swap in. It has been a year and half and 8,000 miles since my NV4500 swap and I love it! The second best powertrain upgrade done to this thing. In fact, shortly I am getting ready to do it all over again in my ’89 Polar Bear Suburban this winter but this time I am using a NP241 transfercase to keep costs down plus the Sub already as has a 32 spline NP241 in it already.

The only problem I’ve had with my NV4500 is the Advance Adapters supplied rear transmission mount bolts pulled the treads clear out of the AA trans to tcase adapter on a AZ trip in May. I ended up having to drill the holes straight through and use longer bolts with nuts at the top. Not too sure about the quality of some of the AA pieces these days.

Larry-

Thanks for the link to your conversion. I read everypost with drool oozing from my lips. You (and Steve) addressed and answered alot of questions i was coming up with.

I am converting to hydroboost as well. I plan on taking the entire system ( pump, steering box, lines, m/c, etc) off an M1009 (84 blazer). I already have the steering box off an M1008 (87 1 ton). They are both hydroboost systems. I am hoping the 1 ton box works with the M1009 1/2 ton system? I want to keep the 1 ton box with the system it came with (D60).

My first challenge is to locate a NV4500 bellhousing with the external slave cylinder provision. Any idea what year/vehicle these were on? Did they all convert to internal at some point?

Thanks, Mike

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by SunSoaked

Larry-

Thanks for the link to your conversion. I read everypost with drool oozing from my lips. You (and Steve) addressed and answered alot of questions i was coming up with.

I am converting to hydroboost as well. I plan on taking the entire system ( pump, steering box, lines, m/c, etc) off an M1009 (84 blazer). I already have the steering box off an M1008 (87 1 ton). They are both hydroboost systems. I am hoping the 1 ton box works with the M1009 1/2 ton system? I want to keep the 1 ton box with the system it came with (D60).

My first challenge is to locate a NV4500 bellhousing with the external slave cylinder provision. Any idea what year/vehicle these were on? Did they all convert to internal at some point?

Thanks, Mike

1992 – 1995 NV4500’s have external slave cylinders, after that they all used the integrated slave/release bearing type units.

The problem with using a 92-95 bell housing is the slave falls on the passenger’s side which will leave you in a jamb to find or have a hydraulic hose built unless you are able to figure out a way to mount a 1993-1995 master cylinder to your firewall. The other problem with the passenger’s side slave is potential front drive shaft interference on unlifted trucks. It seems the 85-91 square body style master cylinders are easier to retrofit to older truck firewalls than the later design m/c's. Good question to ask someone that has actually done a hydraulic clutch conversion on a 67-72.

I used an Advance Adapters bellhousing along with their slave cylinder bracket with an 85-91 slave, m/c and hose which puts the slave on the driver’s side like the stock 85-91 square body style trucks. This would be the bell I would recommend for your project. Same bell I plan to use when do the NV4500 in my Suburban so I can retain the stock hydraulic hose design.

Regarding the steering box, there are .00000 differences between a 4x4 hydroboost steering gear vs. non-hydroboost or ½ ton vs. ¾ or even 1 ton that I know of. The only difference that I am aware of is in the power steering pump itself where the hydroboost pumps have an extra return port. In my case, I just added a T in the return line instead of changing the pump to a hydroboost specific p/s pump. Been working great for 8,000 miles.

Good luck with your project. It will be worth it when it is done.

[SunSoaked]

Thanks Larry,

So much easier having someone share the pitfalls thats gone down this road before. I think I'll go with the AA bellhousing and make it easier on myself.

Tomorrow I'll be mounting the D60 on under the frame along with the longer
(47 inch) front spring pack with my "custom" modified 1 ton spring brackets. Hopefully, I'll have a rolling chassis by the end of the day

[67gmcstepside]

I'm ready to jump to the nv4500 as well. Great information in this thread. I think I understand what is needed and what I am getting into.
Does anyone understand the "flaw" in the 5th gear? Now its time to find one I can afford and hopefull sell my rebuilt 465

5th Gear Upgrade
This transmission has a flaw in the design of the fifth gear. We have implemented a cutting edge system of extending splines and locking mechanisms to reinforce this gear.

[snj8198]

Originally Posted by 67gmcstepside

I'm ready to jump to the nv4500 as well. Great information in this thread. I think I understand what is needed and what I am getting into.
Does anyone understand the "flaw" in the 5th gear? Now its time to find one I can afford and hopefull sell my rebuilt 465

5th Gear Upgrade
This transmission has a flaw in the design of the fifth gear. We have implemented a cutting edge system of extending splines and locking mechanisms to reinforce this gear.

Fifth gear issue pertained to Dodge units and early design GM's, but not late model GM units (still gathering specifics). Fifth gear is located outside of the main case in the tail shaft housing. Under heavy load while in OD the retaining nut would work its self loose and allow the gear to fall off the main shaft. One minute it's there, next it's not!

This fix was one of two ways:
1) If no damage is recorded, the gear can be put back on and the retaining nut is tack welded to the main shaft. Since fifth gear is in the tail housing no additional disassembly is need at this time. But this ensures the main shaft would have to replaced when transmission rebuild time comes.
2) The main shaft is replaced with the aftermarket option. This shaft is tougher and the fifth gear lock mechanism is a jam nut design with more threaded area. But it's over $500 just for this upgrade, and a rebuild is done at this time due to total disassembly at additional cost of the master rebuild kit.

hope this helps.

[Alaskaskiff]

The NV4500 5th gear issue has to do with in the original versions the shaft was not fully splined under 5th gear. There was only about 50 pct contact. Under heavy torque ( and made worse by vibration) the gear would wiggle and back off the nut. As stated there are several fixes. The best correction is to have a fully splined main shaft. Overall a great transmission.
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[SunSoaked]

"The only difference that I am aware of is in the power steering pump itself where the hydroboost pumps have an extra return port. In my case, I just added a T in the return line instead of changing the pump to a hydroboost specific p/s pump."

Hey DirtyLarry (or anyboby else),

I noticed that my pump brackets wont work on my smallblock cuz I took the hydroboost from a 6.2 diesal. Looking at the pump, it looks like I can remove the pulley and the bracket comes off with a few bolts. I am hoping there is a bracket that will bolt on that fits on my SB (short pump). Would this mean that hydroboost would have to been offered with a SB? If the actual pump itself is the same (except for the 2nd return), then a SB bracket should exist?

Anybody?

Thanks, Mike

[Alaskaskiff]

I just replaced my 454 with a 350 and used the Big Block mount for the hydro boost. It was not a direct fit, but it worked. The side bolt going to the block could not be used as there was no hole drilled.
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[v30crewcab]

the 5th gear problem affects "all" nv4500's. the only fully splined mainshaft was aftermarket. the only reason the dodges mostly have the issues is the low rpm torque of the cummins will beat the splines of 5th if you lug it alot. if you don't lug it in 5th gear lower than 1500 rpm, you'll probably never encounter an issue.
I've put two mainshafts in my nv4500. one when I first got it cause it was broken, and just replaced it again recently since I wrecked and bent it. I had to press 5th off both times, so it pays to not lug it in 5th. and I pull trailers all the time with mine, so it does get worked.
the p/s pump is the same with hydroboost, with the exception of about 200psi more pressure. but its not a big deal. you can also just swap the hydroboost tin on, so you have the dual return ports. its like $15 for the gasket kit at the parts store. easy to do, just use some grease on the big o-ring when installing the cover.

[SunSoaked]

I was surprised that the original SB (short water pump) brackets bolted right on the pump housing from the hydroboost setup (86 6.2 diesel). The only problem I have now is the pulley. The one I need is a "flat" 1 groove unit like the original but with a .750 bore (vs .625) to fit the later model pump. From a quick internet search, it doesn't look like it's going to be easy. It seems when GM went to the long water pump, the shaft size increased and the pulleys have a deeper offset.

However, I pulled the pump out of the original resevoir and it appears the pumps are the same externally.

So I'm thinking, put a new "old" pump (with a .625 shaft) in the newer housing and use the original pulley?

Two questions is regarding the pressure output between the pumps:

1. Would it make a difference using a non-hydroboost pump on a hydroboost system?

2. Is the pressure regulated by the spring that comes out with the plunger (valve) on the backside of the pump?

If so, maybe I'll just swap the springs and call it good. Until yesterday, I never messed with a PS pump. It looks alot like an oil pump.

Thanks, Mike

[v30crewcab]

yes that little plunger lookin assembly that comes out of the back with the spring, is the pressure regulator. swap that into the old style pump and you should be good.
heres an article on modifying that stuff, with pics to show you how it is put together.
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.co...rsteering.html

[SunSoaked]

Originally Posted by v30crewcab

yes that little plunger lookin assembly that comes out of the back with the spring, is the pressure regulator. swap that into the old style pump and you should be good.
heres an article on modifying that stuff, with pics to show you how it is put together.
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.co...rsteering.html

Just what I needed. Thanks!

[70custom20]

As far as the AA rear transmission mount bolts pulling out of the mount, is the aluminum adapter threaded without a helicoil?
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[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by 70custom20

As far as the AA rear transmission mount bolts pulling out of the mount, is the aluminum adapter threaded without a helicoil?
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Yes, the treads are just raw into the aluminum housing without an insert but I believe the OEM GM and Dodge version of the NV4500 rear trans mount holes in the adapter are the same basic design.


Before:
This is how the AA instructions say to mount their square stock bracket to the adapter. Just bolt it straight to the adapter (no nuts on top). My buddy and I welded up the cantilever design in order to keep the crossmember in the same location as it was with the SM465. This lasted about 8,000 miles until the bolts pulled the threads out of the adapter. Maybe our cantilever attachment method to the crossmember put too much load on the bolts into the aluminum housing. (View from driver's side)



After:
Not a very good picture to see what is going on but I used a much longer bolt, with steel tubing (old GM alternator spacers) inside the square stock. The longer bolt sticks out of the topside of the adapter where I made a flat bracket for the nuts to sit on in order to prevent them from gouging into the aluminum then added prevailing torque nuts on top of that. The longer bolts help achieve a higher clamp load and allowed the use of nuts on top. So far so good but it only has about 2,000 miles on this concoction. Only time will tell how well this works. The goop around the spacers is Tuff Stuff to help hold them in place while I bolted it together (view from pass side)