Lickin Leaks with Ol John Lee

[Sharps40]

Quote:

I think that much silicone plus the fact that you are allowing it to dry before putting the intake on could be hurting you a little. The gasket itself is the sealer, not the silicone.

Quote:

If it doesn't leak I'd be suprised!
There should be a test when you buy that silicone.
Classic example of how not to use sealer. More's law to the extreme.
Oh well! Changing out the gaskets a few more times they'll figure it out.[/quote]



I don't know fellas, it ain't leakin at the aft end anymore so I guess GM and all the Mecs I talked with here and in town got it right...dispense with the front and back seals, 1/4" beads skinned for 15 minutes. I also checked summit/edelbrock, all said the same thing, deep six the front/aft seals and use RTV. Some said blue, some said red some black....I figure the proof is in the pudding, blue seems to work about anywhere. Yall gotta figure it'd be done a bit cleaner on a new motor with an engine stand but I sat on the radiator and I'm sure ya got more skills than me. But this is a daily driver and some things gotta be done to hold on the road for a bit longer. Just tryin to tighten this one up and keep it runnin a few months more till I can get the 327 and 4 speed. Not puttin a quart in with each tank of fuel is a blessing and an extra bit of silicone is cheep piece of mind. It ain't pretty to look at but pretty is a state of performance....this one keeps tickin along, 11K miles this year and now we've sold the van I spect Ol John Lee will see closer to 18K miles in 2013. I don't know how long this lil 283 will last but at 49 years and 117K+ miles with only a carb and some seals, I'm pretty impressed.

[Sharps40]

Originally Posted by bhc41051

Thanks for the post Sharpie; you can wrench on my old K14 anytime..

Thanks! I could even prolly maybe kinda sorta try a buncha lilbits to use less RTV on someone elses truck!

[Sharps40]

Originally Posted by tincan1966

OK glad I wasn't the only one really thinking that. That much silicone inside the engine will enventually end up in the oil pump and everywhere else.

Prolly right but there is enough windage in the bearings and rings that it'll prolly help keep em from knocking about.

[Sharps40]

I looked up Moore's law to see what it was...the rate of doubling of transisters on circuts over time....didn't see the connection.

But if you mean to draw an analogy, More's law, perhaps too much of a good thing is in fact too much? Maybe so, but I bring what I have to the bench...sorta like useing pulleys to tap in front main seals when appropriate drivers are not available...If it leaks again or burns up from an RTV bit, etc., I'll surely let ya know and tip my hat to ya'll. If not, I'll count myself lucky to have had the use of this lil 283 longer than it should have lasted. Fair enough?

[LT1 Burb]

I would use the silicon in leu of the front and rear seal but that would be it, no silicon at all on the gasket otherwise why bother with the gasket at all.

[geezer#99]

More's law: If some is good, more is better!!

[Sharps40]

Originally Posted by LT1 Burb

I would use the silicon in leu of the front and rear seal but that would be it, no silicon at all on the gasket otherwise why bother with the gasket at all.

Woops, double tap on my reply so its below, this one started out as a blank reply....stiff fingers, small keys, too much bourbon?

[Sharps40]

Originally Posted by LT1 Burb

I would use the silicon in leu of the front and rear seal but that would be it, no silicon at all on the gasket otherwise why bother with the gasket at all.

Just used rtv to adhear the gaskets to the metal per instructions in the kit. Pretty much jives with all the other gaskets I've installed, whether RTV or copper glop/spray or the old black brush on stuff, keeps the gasket from moveing and from leaking.

[Sharps40]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

More's law: If some is good, more is better!!

Got it! I did good then, I used enough and then some More!

[tincan1966]

With all the time you've spent doing repairs(and doing them over and over) I'd have pulled the engine, bought a reasonable complete gasket set, cleaned parts properly and sealed it up. Looking at maybe a weekend job.

We see it over and over in these forums, lots seem to think the cheapest and easiest way is the best repair- only to have most of them fail and have to redo it or even worse, fix additional failures caused by a half attempted repair.

Brings a question to mind- why is there never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it over? No one is perfect, I understand, and everyone makes mistakes, but just hate to see people waste good, hard earned money by shooting themselves in the foot, thinking the cheap way is the best. All depends on what your ride is worth to you.

I, undoubtedly, am in the minority that hates to make repairs(modifications, fabrication and customization are different) and prefer to do them once and be done.

[Sharps40]

Wow yer like the first highly charged negative energy source I've ran into here. Such a shame.

Sorry I don't meet higher standards but like I said, its a daily driver, repairs have to be quick and effective even if not the most perfect in cosmetic or even accurate standards. Luckly or by skill, I've only had to Redo one job, that was the intake mainfold....all the other repairs came in as needed and held fine.

Lets tally, once i did rear and front suspension, no redos. Front main seal, no redo. New radiator, no redo. Installed visors, no redoo. Put in rear view mirror, no redo. Added seat belts, no redo. Installed a complete bed, no redo. Honed and rebuilt rear brake cylinders, no redo. Installed radiator overflow tank, no redo. Fixed license lamp, no redo. Even tuned it myself after installing and adjusting a new carb, no redo.

Installed intake mainfold gasket, twice, a redo.

I suppose that means I made a mistake...but its fixed now and I know what to do later...just sharin my experiences with others in the same boat. I sure wish Ol John Lee could be a garage queen and I could spend time polishin nickle plated gaskets but we drive together daily, 78 miles round trip and he don't fail me and I try like the dickins not to fail him.

[earl84]

I gotta agree with Sharps on this one. Key phrase is DAILY DRIVER. Would we all like to pull everything apart and make it brand new, sure. But reality is a *****.
I think everyone agrees with tincan, as well, and most of our fathers probably hammered it into our heads to do it right the first time. What you say is absolutely true, tincan and geezer, but some of the way you say it comes across as bashing. I know tone is hard to get in the printed word, and you probably aren't launching a personal attack or anything.
And, no, I am not a thin skinned, in touch with my feminine side, whiny, d-bag. Just an observation.
And a huge part of this forum is to share knowledge. Everyone has learned something, and everyone has made mistakes. Sharps has shared a lot of pretty good info, and I have learned. If we posted on here only to get bashed, the forum would become like every other forum on the Internet, with a bunch of arrogant pricks bashing everyone else and the communication would stop.

[tincan1966]

My intent was never to personally bash anyone.

Not everything has to be rebuilt brand new either. I drive one of these trucks everyday too, I have no "garage queens" I build I drive.
Reality is, some of the procedures in forums may mislead some on proper vs "get by" repairs. Cutting corners often gains nothing in the long run, and can frankly,end up getting someone in serious trouble or even hurt. I also understand money is tight for everyone and watching expenses is very important.

I've learned alot from several very informative people on here,who appear to have lots of experience and knowledge backing them up. I try to share what i know,occassionally, in hopes it'll help someone. Sorry if my comments offended, but if something is not represented right, I will call it out, as anyone would on something I'd post.

I will not post again on this topic and idlely sit by, drink my coffee and keep my fingers from typing.

[Sharps40]

I will formally admit to an addiction to silicone adhesives and caulking agents....suffered many leaks due to things like copper spray, gasket paints, etc.....the blugoo holds fast and long. Its ofen even successful alone when a gasket just can't be found.

Over all, I think we're all good here. Same goals, (roadability) but with infinite methods and applications.

So, no harm, no fouls (we all got strong opinions and processes where our trucks are concerned) and the only time my butt hurt was about midway thru the second gasket replacment session, where I was still sittin on the radiator, top clamp gougin my tenders, and tryin to pull the oil sender with the upside down manifold in my lap cause it wouldn't slide down on the guide stud with the sender in the way!

Good discussion, glad we had it openly for all to read and learn.

My 2013 resolution will be to try some new methods, specially if they're a bit cleaner than blugoo!

Happy New Year all, its Ol John Lee's 49th Birthday in May 2013. With luck we'll be celebratin with the commencement of purchasing a whole new drive line from front to back...starting with that good old 327.

[TxRat]

Everyone does things differently (I don't use that much RTV but who cares really). Bottom line if it holds and doesn't leak or create other issues then you did fine. Don't stop posting these adventures of Ol' John. I'm enjoying every bit of it...

[Sharps40]

Originally Posted by TxRat

Everyone does things differently (I don't use that much RTV but who cares really). Bottom line if it holds and doesn't leak or create other issues then you did fine. Don't stop posting these adventures of Ol' John. I'm enjoying every bit of it...

I think Ol John Lees got a list of potential repairs thats longer than my checkbook register....but sure is fun workin on him. Last time I had an old schoold daily driver it was a 15 year period from age 16 to 31 when I drove daily a 1937 Dodge 4 Door Sedan with 3 on the floor, firewall starter pedal and a 217.8 cu in Flat head six with fenton dual intake, 2 stromburgs, 60 off the head, 90 over and a split exhaust manifold. Rear was stock 4.10 with 2" lowering blocks. It would go 100 but ya didn't wanna stay there long or even go there often....but same, same, several years of working hard on weekends to keep it running and make slow progress to a reliable daily driver...then a good 10+ years of steady daily driving once everything was in place. Hardest job on that car was bangin out and in old and new kingpins on the solid front axle.

[earl84]

Fair enough, everyone. Like I said, sometimes tone in the written word is not conveyed properly. So, my intent was not to offend either, nor to bash anyone. Glad we all can share on here. Good day to all. Go Vikings and Adrian Peterson.

[joedoh]

sharps you are the man, I'd buy a common repair manual from you any day. There are a lot more guys who will make this repair now thanks to your step by step instructions.

[Sharps40]

I hope one of em finds an easy button. This is a tough job in that every time I got in the engine bay, sittin on the radiator, the tool or part or whatever was just outta reach and I had to climb back out. Get a helper for this job and a nice pad to go over toppa that radiator top clamp.

[63sbssbbw]

Originally Posted by LT1 Burb

I think that much silicone plus the fact that you are allowing it to dry before putting the intake on could be hurting you a little. The gasket itself is the sealer, not the silicone.

I didn't read anywhere that it was allowed to dry.
I read that it was applied to the gasket,then gasket was set in place(and I assume snugged down by hand),then wait 30 minutes, then carry on with the procedure.
If you left the gasket on the workbench for 30 mins then yes,I could see what you've professed,but snugged down on the head you'd have to leave it overnight to dry(set up).
With that,30 mins..zero mins ,same thing.
Once it's all torqued down it'll be good.
So a little extra goop squeezes out..No biggie!
.
Nice write up and great photo doc Sharp...I like it
From a guy who also has been doing his own repairs since the '70's
T

[Sharps40]

Yes, pretty much the same as the gasket procedures when I put in the front main seal and reinstalled the timeing cover and water pump. I skim coated the gasket, applied it to the block then installed the metal parts, hand tight + 1/4 turn or so. Let the gaskets sit that way for about 30 minutes and then torque to final.

[harpo1313]

a little back saving tip.remove the radiator and fan and its a standup job.just make sure all your tools and parts are within reach as it is a pain in the butt climbing in and out.

[Sharps40]

Been monitorin the intake, oil sender and PCV fitting on the block....all are still quite dry and I'm pretty pleased.

Found another small weep on the drivers side...the oil cannister was a bit loose and there was some oil comein out the joint and drippin down on the exhaust. A couple turns of the wrench fixed it. Got it all wiped off and so far, 400 miles down and I still have a dry garage floor.

I hope the brake overhaul goes as well. ...all new lines and cylinders and I hope it don't leak!

[Sharps40]

Well now, an interesting evening chaseing down the last major leak in the left rear of the motor. I torqued the cannister as indicated above...it stopped the leak. So, decided to change the oil and filter on completion of the brake overhaul since Ol John Lee was still up on the stands. Couldn't get the cannister gasket out so I pulled the adapter cover inside the houseing and low and behold, 2 gaskets in place. Guess I didn't look hard enough at the last oil change, and installed one on top of the other, a good recipe for a leak. All that oil on the LR side was being fanned up off the cannister onto the side of the block by the wind from the flywheel and clutch assembly (I don't have a dust cover for the bottom end of the bell houseing.) Considering the flywheel and clutch were bone dry, It was quite difficult to find out the leak was at the oil cannister since the cannister stayed bone dry for the most part.

But it gets better....during the oil change I put in a new STP S200PL filter and only one new gasket, torqued it up, pinched and cut the gasket and promptly dumped a quart of oil all over the side and bottom of the engine and floor during idle. All that nicely wiped down area gunked up again.

So off to Oreillys for a Wix 51143 cannister filter. A much nicer filter for a bit less money. The Wix is all metal and a slightly thicker gasket. The STP S200PL is all cardboard and a flimseier gasket for a dollar more.

This morning I pulled the cannister and adapter again, reinstalled the new gasket and adapter, cleaned everything up and CAREFULLY guided the cannister up into place and torqued it moderatly once the cannister bedded on the gasket. I never allowed the cannister to turn/spin on the gasket. The result? No more oil cannister leak. Went for a 25 mile test ride and did a recheck....no leaks.

So, other than the very slightest weep from the rear main (which I intend to leave well enough alone till it gets bad or the 327 drops in to the engine bay) I may be close to dispensing with cardboard on the garage floor. In fact, I'm confident enough that I may scrape down the floor and go over it with a good cleaner this comeing weekend.

It'll be nice to ride around for a while knowing that the only oil comeing out of the engine is that which gets past the valves and rings to go out the tail pipe. In any event, I'll finally be able to get a true approximation of the amount of oil useage on this old motor since the majority of the oil is in the pan instead of all over the underside and the garage floor