I'm A Welder Now! Not Really, But Trying.

[hsdropout]

Dan, you'll have fun with that patching (you previously mentioned chinese water board torture?) It can obviuosly be very tedious............
Sometimes it is easier to cut the patch a bit larger and then trace out line over hole and cut carefully with a jig saw....then fit .....check....... grind ......fit..... check..... grind.....
get it perfect then try not to blow a hole in it and start over...

Keep at it..........you'll get it............practice makes perfect..........
Just my non expert 2 cents

[Dan in Pasadena]

Yeah I already learned one lesson: Use a sharp pencil to trace your pattern - NOT a "sharpie". Too fat a line.

I'm gonna do what mknittle said and grind the holes smooth, re-cut the one patch I made. Fortunately I have extra door panel wavy metal.

I used a thin blade on my 4" grinder to rough cut the metal then ground it to the line with the bench grinder. I think with flat metal the jigsaw would be better. Not sure there IS a "better" with this wavy stuff.

[parkwood]

Originally Posted by Dan in Pasadena

Eh... if I use them they'd require more work to fit closer. But I'm leaning toward trying to sand the holes smoother. The PO drilled small holes around the perimeter then used SOMETHING; no idea what, to connect them do they're kinda "notchy" in person

Dan i'm not sure if someone has already said this on here or not but when filling holes in sheet metal and you can back up your weld with a piece of copper, it help take some of the heat and keeps the burn throughs down some and welding rod or wire won't stick to it.. makes for a clean weld when you can use it..

[Kim57]

Originally Posted by Dan in Pasadena

Yeah I already learned one lesson: Use a sharp pencil to trace your pattern - NOT a "sharpie". Too fat a line.

I'm gonna do what mknittle said and grind the holes smooth, re-cut the one patch I made. Fortunately I have extra door panel wavy metal.

I used a thin blade on my 4" grinder to rough cut the metal then ground it to the line with the bench grinder. I think with flat metal the jigsaw would be better. Not sure there IS a "better" with this wavy stuff.

I'd cut the hole in the door square and then cut a square patch to fill it.
Just seems easier to get everything lined up.
Kim

[Clarance J]

Hello Dan, There are dozens of ways to do the same thing. On some parts if you make the patch first and then make the hole to fit the patch. Either way you're filling a hole, so the cutting is almost the same. Not in all cases, but you can get the same result working backward. You are right about nice sharp lines as guides for the cut.

[dicer]

Looks good. Some advice, try to make the filler piece of metal fit much tighter. When filling a gap the weld will cool and pull it together some, thus distorting the area. If you do lots of spoting in an area that happens too. Hammer and dolly can stretch it back out but if you can't get to the back side its not fun.

[FarmerSid]

Good to see you trying new things. I went through the same thing not too long ago. Take all the advice people have given you and do what works for you. One of the biggest things I had to overcome was "patience". I can't stress that enough. Don't rush it. Prep is everything. Once that is done correctly, the rest will be a breeze. This is most important when you don't have access to the back side of the patch. Smooth the opening where the new patch is to be and put a slight chamfer on the outside edge but make sure you are into good metal and don't take out more than needed. I rough out the hole and then use a fine half moon file to smooth the edges and put a slight chamfer on the opening. You'd be suprised at how much and how little material can be removed with a file. Do the same with the patch. It will take some time to get the patch to fit using a file but it's the only way I can get a perfect fit. Get your welder setup correctly on some scrap. You want it to weld right away when you hit the trigger with no spitter spatter before a nice arc starts. Hold the tip of the welder almost parallel to the metal and not at a 90 to the metal. For me, when I have a tight fit with no gap, chamfered edges and holding the welder tip as flat to the metal as possible, the tack is almost flush with minimal grinding. I then tack in a criss cross pattern around the patch with about a 2" space between tacks. After the first round of tacks, I let them all cool on their own and grind them down after they cool. I grind down the tacks with a 3" cut off wheel in a die grinder. Way less heat generated doing this it way as opposed to a flap disk or whatever. It took me a bit to do it this way and avoid the temptation of hurrying up and get the welds ground down quick. Mistake. Distortion and shrinkage. You have to bring the panel back into shape after each round of tacks by hammer and dolly (the on method) on the welds only or by any way that works for you to bring the shape of the panel back to where it needs to be. If you don't, the shrinkage will be MUCH harder to deal with after. Especially using MIG. The filler material or wire is is harder than the sheet metal and won't stretch and shrink as easily as the surrounding sheet metal. I'm using 0.023 wire that the supplier says he sells body shops for sheet metal but I still find it much harder that sheet metal and harder to hammer and dolly back into shape. This is how I do my patches now after much trial and error and patch redo's. I also don't make square patches. I round the corners to the same shape as my half moon file.

Also make sure that the panel and patch is free of paint and rust about an inch or more from the area to be welded.

Maybe what seems to work for me will work for you.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Yeah, old school is right on the mark. I bought the truck from a guy who'd only had it 6 months. He bought from the original owner from 1955, so the guy was OLD!!

The truck had sat undriven from 1991 to 2010 - AAA confirmed that part of the story as it wasn't registered all those years.

I was told the original owner paid a "kid" to rebuild the 283 in 1989 and this kid put too much cam in it to suit the old owner. Plus the owner was getting very elderly and so he just stopped driving totally a couple years later in '91.

The guy I bought it from only got it running, nothing more. So I like to think of myself as the true "2nd owner" but that's not quite accurate.
Posted via Mobile Device

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by Kim57

I'd cut the hole in the door square and then cut a square patch to fill it.
Just seems easier to get everything lined up.
Kim

I'm with you Kim. it would much easier fit a panel like Dan is working on.

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by Dan in Pasadena

Yeah I already learned one lesson: Use a sharp pencil to trace your pattern - NOT a "sharpie". Too fat a line.

I'm gonna do what mknittle said and grind the holes smooth, re-cut the one patch I made. Fortunately I have extra door panel wavy metal.

I used a thin blade on my 4" grinder to rough cut the metal then ground it to the line with the bench grinder. I think with flat metal the jigsaw would be better. Not sure there IS a "better" with this wavy stuff.

When I use a pencil I use pentel mechanical in .09mm they have a narrow snout and if the lead breaks you can feed some more with one hand.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Thanks Sid. I know about most of the excellent advice you gave but I do have a couple questions:

I absolutely know patience is key AND I know I'm not an especially patient person!

I've never heard of using the gun laying down "parallel" to the weld. Maybe at 45 degrees but not flattish. I guess this minimizes penetration to prevent blow out?

I doubt I can hammer & dolly these speaker hole patches, no real access to the backside. So I'll tack on opposite sides til I complete the weld all around and hope for the best(?)

- I have 4 of these do to so I will prep all 4 patches, tack around on one - 2" apart then move to the next to allow the first to cool. I'm hoping that doing it this way by the time i complete #4, #1 will have cooled. Then start all over again til all four are complete

As for beveling, it seems making the metal thinner wouldn't be desireable. I know this IS desireable with thicker metal but.,,
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[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by mknittle

When I use a pencil I use pentel mechanical in .09mm they have a narrow snout and if the lead breaks you can feed some more with one hand.

Excellent point - no pun intended
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[mknittle]

Originally Posted by Dan in Pasadena

Thanks Sid. I know about most of the excellent advice you gave but I do have a couple questions:

I absolutely know patience is key AND I know I'm not an especially patient person!

I've never heard of using the gun laying down "parallel" to the weld. Maybe at 45 degrees but not flattish. I guess this minimizes penetration to prevent blow out?

I doubt I can hammer & dolly these speaker hole patches, no real access to the backside. So I'll tack on opposite sides til I complete the weld all around and hope for the best(?)

- I have 4 of these do to so I will prep all 4 patches, tack around on one - 2" apart then move to the next to allow the first to cool. I'm hoping that doing it this way by the time i complete #4, #1 will have cooled. Then start all over again til all four are complete

As for beveling, it seems making the metal thinner wouldn't be desireable. I know this IS desireable with thicker metal but.,,
Posted via Mobile Device

with a mig you want to point the gun where you want the heat. You are right about beveling. The only time to do that is on thicker metal to promote penetration. the 45 degree angle is used when metals of different thickness are used say 3/8 to 1/8" point the heat to the thicker of the two.

All good advice but not for sheet metal.

The hammer on dolly works to stretch metal. Always keep in mind ANY time you heat metal enough to weld it when it cools it shrinks to a smaller size than before!!!! There is no way to prevent warpage ,only ways to control it.

[Dan in Pasadena]

mknittle,

Yeah, I'm very familiar with the problem associated with welding - I am the Construction Quality Manager for the I-405 project. We do lots of heavy structural welding. I am not a certified welder mysled nor a CWI - Certified Welding Inspector, but I know the subject well. It's just that welding sheet metal is obviously a very different animal than heavy structural steel.

I MIGHT be able to hammer & dolly these welds if I pull the window regulators & glass - I didn't want to, and I'm still not sure my arms would fit down through the door panel access hole - but if this warpage will be significant I can.

Frankly, since this is some of my first welding I expected to have to use a little body filler to get a final result that is undetectable. WHat kind, by the way? I've searched and everyone seems high on "Rage" body filler. A recommendation for a good (if there is one) cheaper alternative would be appreciated.

[parkwood]

Originally Posted by parkwood

Dan i'm not sure if someone has already said this on here or not but when filling holes in sheet metal and you can back up your weld with a piece of copper, it help take some of the heat and keeps the burn throughs down some and welding rod or wire won't stick to it.. makes for a clean weld when you can use it..

Well Dan your head must be on over load with all this good advice.. but it did forget to say one thing i found that works for me is when welding sheet metal or filling holes don't start to weld with a little ball on the end of the wire.. sometimes when you spot welding you end up with a little ball on the end, i always cut it off so you have a clean wire to start with.. and then before i weld i hit the trigger one time real fast to energize the wire, it seems to make for a real clean spot weld and doesn't seem to burn through as much..

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by parkwood

Well Dan your head must be on over load with all this good advice.. but it did forget to say one thing i found that works for me is when welding sheet metal or filling holes don't start to weld with a little ball on the end of the wire.. sometimes when you spot welding you end up with a little ball on the end, i always cut it off so you have a clean wire to start with.. and then before i weld i hit the trigger one time real fast to energize the wire, it seems to make for a real clean spot weld and doesn't seem to burn through as much..

Thanks Parkwood.

My head's pretty much ALWAYS on "overload" Lol.

Yes, I know to cut the little blob off. I have the "finest" Harbor Freight MIG pliers in my leather apron just for that purpose

You're saying momentarily tap the trigger BEFORE I contact metal, then immediately place the tack? Do I understand that correctly?

The reason I'm even doing these speaker holes first instead of some rust repair is to keep from totally frustrating myself. On my practice door (above) there were a couple very small holes on the top that were for peep mirrors, I think. I expected to tack once maybe twice to fill them. Nope, they immediately holed-through. ARRGH!

Not sure why but I THINK it was because the backside was already thinned due to rust I had not seen. I didn't need to deal with that immediately so I switched gears and decided to try solid metal first. I hope I'm right.

[faribran]

"I MIGHT be able to hammer & dolly these welds if I pull the window regulators & glass."

i feel sure u know what weld spatter does to glass.. but i know most of us have been guilty of getting too close to the glass....

[parkwood]

Originally Posted by Dan in Pasadena

Thanks Parkwood.

My head's pretty much ALWAYS on "overload" Lol.

Yes, I know to cut the little blob off. I have the "finest" Harbor Freight MIG pliers in my leather apron just for that purpose

You're saying momentarily tap the trigger BEFORE I contact metal, then immediately place the tack? Do I understand that correctly?

The reason I'm even doing these speaker holes first instead of some rust repair is to keep from totally frustrating myself. On my practice door (above) there were a couple very small holes on the top that were for peep mirrors, I think. I expected to tack once maybe twice to fill them. Nope, they immediately holed-through. ARRGH!

Not sure why but I THINK it was because the backside was already thinned due to rust I had not seen. I didn't need to deal with that immediately so I switched gears and decided to try solid metal first. I hope I'm right.

yes just before i start to weld and without the wire touching the metal thats when i tap the trigger.. try it the next time and let me know if it worked for you...

[FarmerSid]

I don't agree with some of the advice you have been given and that's fine......! Play a bit and see what works for you. When I said lay the gun tip parallel, it's not going to be exactly parallel. Point your wire on the outside edge of the previous weld. Pretty much touching it. You want to overlap the tack 1/2 to 1/3 or there abouts. When you bevel the edges of the panel and patch, all you need is to go down about half the thickness of the sheet metal at about a 45 degree angle. It sounds more technical that it is. Just run your file over the edges a bit and your good to go. I don't get to fancy on the 45 degree angle or if I go half the thickness of the metal. By doing this, you won't have too much grinding to do but the patch must fit pretty tight. By tight I mean no bigger gap than your welding wire. If you bevel your edges and your gaps are too big, you will blow holes. If your welder is not set right and you do things how I do, your welds will be a mess. Everything has to be set for things to go right. Have your gas set to at least 20 and no breeze. You can't have any wind or air movement. Like what was said, trim the ball off everytime you weld but find that when my welder is set good, no ball forms on my wire. One thing I neglected to mention is to make sure your wire feed roll tension is set right. I have a piece if scotch brite pad clipped to the wire inside my welder before it goes into the feed rolls. This cleans the wire as I use it. My welder sits in a unheated garage and this makes sure the wire is somewhat clean as it gets used.

Again, play with your welder and practice on some scrap. Your final product will turn out so much better and easier when everything is set up correctly. Try what I have suggested and see for your self. Just having things clean and tight fitting will be 90% of the battle.

Have fun and ask away if you need to.

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by Dan in Pasadena

mknittle,

Yeah, I'm very familiar with the problem associated with welding - I am the Construction Quality Manager for the I-405 project. We do lots of heavy structural welding. I am not a certified welder mysled nor a CWI - Certified Welding Inspector, but I know the subject well. It's just that welding sheet metal is obviously a very different animal than heavy structural steel.

I MIGHT be able to hammer & dolly these welds if I pull the window regulators & glass - I didn't want to, and I'm still not sure my arms would fit down through the door panel access hole - but if this warpage will be significant I can.

Frankly, since this is some of my first welding I expected to have to use a little body filler to get a final result that is undetectable. WHat kind, by the way? I've searched and everyone seems high on "Rage" body filler. A recommendation for a good (if there is one) cheaper alternative would be appreciated.

You are doing a great job for the first time on thin stuff. it is one of those things that takes practice to find what works for you.

[mr48chev]

Your arm might fit in ok Dan but if it's like mine you might have a hard time getting it back out. I think weld it solid with no pin holes, grind it smooth and lay on a little pookie will suffice nicely in this case. When you get handy enough you can come up an help me weld my doors back together after I take two and make one long one.

[Kabwe]

I think a lot of this stuff is way over thinking it. There are rules such as keep your metal as cool as possible, never run a bead on sheetmetal, make sure your patch fits is perfect before welding, your gaps should not be wider than the welding wire (but none of us are perfect so as close as you can), setup your welder, weld to clean metal (even more important with tig).

Dan this is the truth. No two people do things alike and you must find what works for you. That comes with practice and don't ever look at your failures as failures look at them as a opportunity to learn. You will develop your own style and what works for you.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by Kabwe

I think a lot of this stuff is way over thinking it. There are rules such as keep your metal as cool as possible, never run a bead on sheetmetal, make sure your patch fits is perfect before welding, your gaps should not be wider than the welding wire (but none of us are perfect so as close as you can), setup your welder, weld to clean metal (even more important with tig).

Dan this is the truth. No two people do things alike and you must find what works for you. That comes with practice and don't ever look at your failures as failures look at them as a opportunity to learn. You will develop your own style and what works for you.

Bam, Thanks for saying that. I usually trust my own instincts but on the subject of welding (especially sheet metal) I have nothing to base my ideas on except what I've been told by others and seen here.

I went out earlier tonight and tried using a rotary file in my drill - it did nada, nothing. Then I tried my half round file. It worked but it'd take me forever to smooth out these FOUR holes with either of these methods.

I think I'll go looking for a drum sander I can put a course emery cloth drum on - IF such exists. If I can't find that I'm just going to recut the patch closer and that's it. I may try tracing the pattern directly on the spare door and using my jig saw instead of cutting the patch with an angle grinder from a piece I cut out of the door.

[Kim57]

Dan
I use my angle grinder to grind my welds.
A regular grinding disc works to knock the welds down and then a cut off wheel to get them closer to finished.
I also use a flap disc to smooth them.
Like Bam says you need to find what works best for you.
Kim

[Kabwe]

Dan as far as cutting a line. I use a electric grinder with a thin 4 1/2 cutoff wheel on long cuts because it cuts faster than my air grinder with a 3 inch wheel I only use my air grinder on small patches. With practice you will be able to cut precision lines by hand. Word of caution: Let the grinder do the work don't push or pull to make it cut faster. Just lit the wheel do the work. I've also used a jigsaw in the past on flat metal it works decent but I prefer my cut off wheel because its much faster.

As far as grinding welds I do it very close to what kid does. I use my air grinder with a 3 inch cut off wheel and knock the weld bead down close and then I finish it up with my angle grinder with a roloc disc. I also have used flap disc and I love them. They even sell them for roloc but they can get expensive that is the only reason I don't use them more often.

Once again try different things and see what works for you.